Who will get to heaven?

Kenny · Jun 11, 2019

JJ50 said:
The Bible says a lot of things, many of which aren't sensible.

I prefer, "deeper than my current understanding". But, as Proverbs says,

Proverbs 4:6-8 (NASB)
6 “Do not forsake her, and she will guard you;
beginning of wisdom is: "Acquire wisdom; And with all your acquiring, get understanding.
8 "Prize her, and she will exalt you;
She will honor you if you embrace her.

And again:

Proverbs 10:14
Wise men store up knowledge, But with the mouth of the foolish, ruin is at hand.

Kenny · Jun 11, 2019

Prestor John said:
I figured you were one of those "born-again" people.

In my opinion, one of the laziest and most superficial branches of Christianity.

I'm glad that you are not my judge.

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Prestor John said:
The verse clearly states that the Lord would not "leave" his soul in Hell. That is true. He will not be "left" there. It is a temporary condition.

The word "corruption" is always used to describe the decaying effects of physical death on the mortal body. He knew that his spirit would one day leave Hell to reunite with his physical body in a glorious and incorruptible resurrection.
.

Agreed

David had received a sure witness of the Resurrection that would happen for all, for it was a "free gift" from the Lord, and knew that his body would go to the grave and his spirit to Hell, but after a time they would be reunited before he stood before the Holy One to be judged.
.

The earth had two compartments one of which included Paradise. There is nothing that suggests he didn't go to Paradise.

Prestor John said:
However, the scriptures are clear, that David did not enter into Heaven upon the rise of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, there isn't

Prestor John said:
It is true that the scriptures claim that many "saints" arose in a bodily resurrection after the Lord took up his physical body again, but Peter later made mention that David was not among those who had risen.

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Correct, and yes he was.

Prestor John said:
"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Jesus hadn't died for sins yet so, yes, his body was both dead and buried. He spirit and soul were in Paradise

Prestor John said:
It is true that Lord Jesus Christ suffered for the sins of all, but the scriptures also claim that Hell is a real place that actually exists and that there are certain spirits who will dwell there for a time.

I don't understand how you can argue that the Lord suffered for our sins and that Hell somehow does not exist. You pick and choose which verses to believe?

Or are you arguing that Hell no longer exists?

Where did I say that Hell didn't exist? I hope this is a one time error.

Prestor John said:
Are you trying to claim that the ancient followers of the Law of Moses did not receive redemption from the Fall?

Are you trying to claim that the Holy Ghost did not attend those ancient followers of the Law of Moses?

Are you trying to claim that the ancient followers of the Law of Moses were unable to repent of their sins?

All of these things were offered to the ancient Israelites. They were promised redemption and forgiveness through keeping the tenets of the Law of Moses.

I sincerely encourage you to go back and reread the scriptures.

No I'm not and yes they did and went to Paradise
The Holy Spirit was not one with their spirits as one must be born again for that to happen. As Jesus said: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Where did I say that?
I would say it this way, "through the keeping of the ceremonial laws through faith"
I do. Perhaps you should has God to give the the spirit of wisdom and revelation?

Prestor John said:
Do you somehow know all the sins committed by this thief?

Was he a baptized member of Christ's Church?

Did he ever murder someone? Commit adultery?

The Lord Jesus Christ is a perfect judge of character and He knew that this thief had not committed sins grievous enough to warrant any time spent in Hell.

Don't need to. Have you looked and lusted after another person?
Doesn't need to
Have you looked and lusted after another person?
So says you?

Prestor John said:
Not according to the verses in 2 Corinthians 5.

Paul was talking about those who had been called to the "ministry of reconciliation" who he referred to as "ambassadors".

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT! After all, you can't just pluck something out there to conform it to your liking

The Corinthian Church was a mess and needed to repent and turn around. As open letters read by all, we are either good or bad ambassadors. As such, Paul was calling them to be reconciled to the will of God to do good and not yield their members as member of unrighteousness.

1 The 2:4 But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the glad tidings (the Gospel), so we speak not to please men but to please God, Who tests our hearts [expecting them to be approved].

We are all ambassadors of God's Kingdom taking the message.

lostwanderingsoul · Jun 11, 2019

KenS said:
I'm glad that you are not my judge.

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Agreed

The earth had two compartments one of which included Paradise. There is nothing that suggests he didn't go to Paradise.

No, there isn't

Correct, and yes he was.

Jesus hadn't died for sins yet so, yes, his body was both dead and buried. He spirit and soul were in Paradise

Where did I say that Hell didn't exist? I hope this is a one time error.

No I'm not and yes they did and went to Paradise

The Holy Spirit was not one with their spirits as one must be born again for that to happen. As Jesus said: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Where did I say that?

I would say it this way, "through the keeping of the ceremonial laws through faith"

I do. Perhaps you should has God to give the the spirit of wisdom and revelation?

Don't need to. Have you looked and lusted after another person?

Doesn't need to

Have you looked and lusted after another person?

So says you?

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT! After all, you can't just pluck something out there to conform it to your liking

The Corinthian Church was a mess and needed to repent and turn around. As open letters read by all, we are either good or bad ambassadors. As such, Paul was calling them to be reconciled to the will of God to do good and not yield their members as member of unrighteousness.

1 The 2:4 But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the glad tidings (the Gospel), so we speak not to please men but to please God, Who tests our hearts [expecting them to be approved].

We are all ambassadors of God's Kingdom taking the message.

Nice long answer but I still do not see the verse that says anyone will be in heaven or anyone has an immortal soul.

Bird123 · Jun 11, 2019

lostwanderingsoul said:
I like answers in the Bible.

Is Truth always a likeable answer? Discovery has always been harder than merely accepting and following beliefs written by mankind. It comes down to what you really want. Personally, I could never settle for anything other than the Real Truth.

I find so much of the Bible simply does not add up. The Bible also values so many petty things. It is a good reflection of mankind as I see it.

lostwanderingsoul · Jun 11, 2019

Bird123 said:
Is Truth always a likeable answer? Discovery has always been harder than merely accepting and following beliefs written by mankind. It comes down to what you really want. Personally, I could never settle for anything other than the Real Truth.

I find so much of the Bible simply does not add up. The Bible also values so many petty things. It is a good reflection of mankind as I see it.

So what is the real truth about what happens to people after they die. I ask seriously because if you know something I missed I am always ready to learn.

JJ50 · Jun 12, 2019

lostwanderingsoul said:
So what is the real truth about what happens to people after they die. I ask seriously because if you know something I missed I am always ready to learn.

No one can know with absolute certainty that death is the end of one's existence, but until there is verifiable evidence that is so, I will continue to believe that to be the case, I hope I am right.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

England my lionheart said:
Wouldn't an all knowing god know that Adam would sin in the first place?,it would have saved god sending his son to die on the cross,he would also know the consequences of religions effect on the world.

However, the God of the Bible is Not ALL knowing because He gifted ALL intelligent creation with free-will choices.
No one is forced to worship God. Everything is by voluntary free-will choice - Leviticus 1:7

Adam and Eve lacked nothing. It was through the outside influence of a corrupted spirit angelic creation.
Satan threw the monkey wrench into Eden.
By Adam going along with breaking the law is what caused the bad consequences passed down to us.
Since we can't stop sinning we die. Since we can't resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can.
This is why God provided faithful Jesus to undo the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us. - Rev. 1:18

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

lostwanderingsoul said:
So what is the real truth about what happens to people after they die. I ask seriously because if you know something I missed I am always ready to learn.

To me Jesus told the truth at John 11:11-14 that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
That would mean while Jesus was dead he was in a sleeping state until his God resurrected the dead Jesus.
What Jesus believed and taught was because he was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Scriptures such as found at Psalms 6:5; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Because the dead sleep is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the future tense regarding the resurrection.
It says there ' is going to be ' (future tense) a resurrection......
That future resurrection will take place during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.

lostwanderingsoul · Jun 12, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
To me Jesus told the truth at John 11:11-14 that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
That would mean while Jesus was dead he was in a sleeping state until his God resurrected the dead Jesus.
What Jesus believed and taught was because he was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Scriptures such as found at Psalms 6:5; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Because the dead sleep is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the future tense regarding the resurrection.
It says there ' is going to be ' (future tense) a resurrection......
That future resurrection will take place during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.

OK that makes sense. But do any of these people spend the rest of eternity in heaven sfter they resurrected?

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

lostwanderingsoul said:
OK that makes sense. But do any of these people spend the rest of eternity in heaven after they resurrected?

From what I have learned those resurrected to heaven will remain in heaven, or in other words, they gain eternity aka everlasting life in heaven forever.
They are the first fruits of 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 and have celestial spirit bodies 1 Corinthians 15:40,50.
As being first they have that first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6
They 'put on' so to speak, immortality (become death proof) as per 1 Corinthians 15:53.
While those gaining eternity on earth are always mortal as Adam was mortal.
Unlike Adam they choose to remain faithful so they can live forever on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
They are considered as being the humble meek people whom Jesus said would inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

JJ50 said:
Surely god would have known how a person would react if told not to do something that would gain them more knowledge. If god exists and created human nature, it is to blame for all that is wrong in the world.

I am wondering what is the something that would gain them more knowledge ____________
Genesis 2:17 makes it plain if you break the law it carried capital punishment, the death sentence.
Since they were created with human perfection they could only do wrong on purpose, willfully.
Their leanings were upright unless they deliberately choose otherwise.
Once breaking the law human imperfection set in and caused them to lean towards / wrongdoing.
This is why we can't stop sinning. If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
Creation was Not created to be robots, nor to be automatons, but free-willed thinkers.
God forces No one to obey Him, and He does give the warning consequences for wrongdoing.
If everyone in the world lived by the Golden Rule, how much would there be to blame for all the wrong in the world.
So, it seems to me it is people breaking the Golden Rule is what is responsible for what is wrong in the world.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

Road Warrior said:
As for "Gods life", says who? I appreciate the wisdom of the Golden Rule, but why does that have to be a divine inspiration and not a totally secular one?

Sure the Golden Rule can be secular, but I find that in Scripture God wants mankind to follow the Golden Rule.
To me, what Jesus said at John 13:34-35 is of divine inspiration and Not secular because Jesus said his followers would be identified by having Christ-like love. That would mean having self-sacrificing love for others.
In other words, we are Now to love neighbor ' more ' than self.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

Bird123 said:
Everyone will get to Heaven. ................

Since the person committing the unforgivable sin is never forgiven (Matthew 12:32) then I wonder how such a person will get to heaven or get anywhere else for that matter__________
Seem clear to me that the wicked will be destroyed forever just as it is said at Psalms 92:7

Bird123 · Jun 12, 2019

lostwanderingsoul said:
So what is the real truth about what happens to people after they die. I ask seriously because if you know something I missed I am always ready to learn.

When one dies, they go to God where they will experience God's Unconditional Love. It is a love that heals all hurt. It shows us that it has never ever been about punishment.

God's Unconditional Love feels so good, we would do anything for it. We want to be just like God. If there is any judging involved it will be you judging yourself. God's system does not require it.

Who knows how long one basks in God's Unconditional love but there comes a time when kiddies must go back to school and one is born into a new physical body.

This is how I see it. This is the quick version and there is so much more to Discover. As you can see. God isn't what religion is teaching.

Perhaps, instead of hearing answers then deciding whether to believe or not, one should Discover the Truth for themselves. I can give you a starting point, but your journey must be yours. Discovering answers is much harder than having Beliefs served up on a plate, but wisdom is acquired in the journey.

In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. When you understand what God is doing and why, it opens doors to new Discoveries. The beauty is that God's actions can not be altered like so many holy books and religious beliefs. One needs a Wide view and remember that everything about God will add up perfectly. That is the base where you know you are headed in the right direction.

Ebb and Flow of knowledge helps putting any puzzle together. Example: If I were to build a car, all cars have the same certain things: Engine, Brakes, Steering, and a place to Sit. Do you get what I am saying?

This is a lifetime journey taking a Wide View, Advanced Thinking, Analytics, and perhaps an ability to put puzzles together. I think everyone is capable of learning something.

Well, that is my path. Your journey has never depended on me. I merely point. But I can tell you this: Much more knowledge exists beyond the mere surface. On the other hand, nothing is hidden. It stares us all in the face waiting to be Discovered.

Perhaps, it is a test of intelligence. Intelligence does exist beyond mankind. We are but ants. Still, I'm walking in the right direction, as we all are at our own paces. We will get there.

OK, That's how I see it, at least this little bit, quick version of part of it.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

England my lionheart said:
Doesn't seem very fair to pay for the sins of two people,still it's all supposition.
I'm really trying to see the "overwhelming positive effect" of religion anywhere,some of the most religious places and people in the world are also the worst places to live with intollerant backward people imo.

I find we pay for our own sins.
The wages or price tag that sin pays is: death (Romans 6:23,7)
If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
Because we can't stop sinning is why God sent per-human heavenly Jesus to Earth for us.
Faithful Jesus was given the Resurrection Power - Revelation 1:18.
Thus, Jesus will undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon mankind.

Jesus lived under intolerant corrupted religious leaders.
Thus, Jesus was forewarning us about the world's false religious leaders - Matthew 7:21-23.
Gospel writer Luke informs us an apostasy would set in at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
The fake 'weed/tares' Christians would grow together with the genuine ' wheat ' Christians.
They would grow together until the Harvest Time (our time fame) until the coming ' time of separation' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
So, it should be No surprise the world's religions are likened to a harlot at Revelation 17:1.
She ( worldly religion ) sits on many ' waters ' ( people - Revelation 17:15; Isaiah 57:20)
But, now the time is soon coming when the wicked will be No more - Psalms 37:9-11; Psalms 92:7
Jesus will take the action as mentioned at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
Then, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

Road Warrior · Jun 12, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
Sure the Golden Rule can be secular, but I find that in Scripture God wants mankind to follow the Golden Rule.
To me, what Jesus said at John 13:34-35 is of divine inspiration and Not secular because Jesus said his followers would be identified by having Christ-like love. That would mean having self-sacrificing love for others.
In other words, we are Now to love neighbor ' more ' than self.

Other wise men have made similar statements, including Siddhartha Gautama about 500 years earlier. It's wise, but no divinity is required.

Let's not forget that the Gospel of John, as we know it, was written about 100 AD. The equivalent of you writing a book about Woodrow Wilson.

JJ50 · Jun 13, 2019

Bird123 said:
When one dies, they go to God where they will experience God's Unconditional Love. It is a love that heals all hurt. It shows us that it has never ever been about punishment.

God's Unconditional Love feels so good, we would do anything for it. We want to be just like God. If there is any judging involved it will be you judging yourself. God's system does not require it.

Who knows how long one basks in God's Unconditional love but there comes a time when kiddies must go back to school and one is born into a new physical body.

This is how I see it. This is the quick version and there is so much more to Discover. As you can see. God isn't what religion is teaching.

Perhaps, instead of hearing answers then deciding whether to believe or not, one should Discover the Truth for themselves. I can give you a starting point, but your journey must be yours. Discovering answers is much harder than having Beliefs served up on a plate, but wisdom is acquired in the journey.

In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. When you understand what God is doing and why, it opens doors to new Discoveries. The beauty is that God's actions can not be altered like so many holy books and religious beliefs. One needs a Wide view and remember that everything about God will add up perfectly. That is the base where you know you are headed in the right direction.

Ebb and Flow of knowledge helps putting any puzzle together. Example: If I were to build a car, all cars have the same certain things: Engine, Brakes, Steering, and a place to Sit. Do you get what I am saying?

This is a lifetime journey taking a Wide View, Advanced Thinking, Analytics, and perhaps an ability to put puzzles together. I think everyone is capable of learning something.

Well, that is my path. Your journey has never depended on me. I merely point. But I can tell you this: Much more knowledge exists beyond the mere surface. On the other hand, nothing is hidden. It stares us all in the face waiting to be Discovered.

Perhaps, it is a test of intelligence. Intelligence does exist beyond mankind. We are but ants. Still, I'm walking in the right direction, as we all are at our own paces. We will get there.

OK, That's how I see it, at least this little bit, quick version of part of it.

Being loved by god is like being loved the evil Hitler, if the deeds attributed to the Biblical god character have any credibility

Bird123 · Jun 13, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
Since the person committing the unforgivable sin is never forgiven (Matthew 12:32) then I wonder how such a person will get to heaven or get anywhere else for that matter__________
Seem clear to me that the wicked will be destroyed forever just as it is said at Psalms 92:7

That is the kind of petty thinking that keeps one from reaching a Higher Level.

THINK! What is more important? The Child or the payback? Is it better to discard and destroy the problem or is it better to Solve the problem? Where does the True Intelligence Live???

We all have the power to Choose what we deem important. Your choices not only speak to who you are, they show God and the world what lessons you need to learn.

God is Unconditional Love. Why? Because Unconditional Love is the only True Intelligent way to be. Given enough time, everyone will learn this.

Finally, those quotes from your holy book only show that your holy book is not from God. Can you see what I am saying? God is above those petty things mankind holds so dear.

Bird123 · Jun 13, 2019

JJ50 said:
Being loved by god is like being loved the evil Hitler, if the deeds attributed to the Biblical god character have any credibility

I have found no religion that actually Understands God. On the other hand, there are pieces of the puzzle living in those holy books. Example: Some of what the Bible says about Love, one can not argue. On the other hand, mankind's view of God carries so many of the petty things mankind values. Clearly, you see this.

I think the answer is not to hate. One must merely point them in the right direction. One day that light bulb will go off over their heads and they will Understand.

Rubellite Fae · Jun 13, 2019

Gerry said:
“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg

My question: Why not?

Because "heaven" isn't a place in space-time. It's a state of consciousness in which your oneness with the divine is wholly realized. The righteous are blessed by the peace, harmony, and compassion that comes with this state of mind.

Heaven, or as Yeshiva actually calls it, the Kingdom of God, is now. To experience this once must live in the now moment. Pain, vengeance, guilt, jealousy, anger, regret, sadness... we only experience these when living in the past. Doubt, desire, fear, anxiety... these are experienced by trying to live in the future. The peace of God lies in presence. Be a human being, not a human doing (striving).

Hell is any other way of living. We aren't punished in future for our sins, but are punished now by our sins (literally "mistakes"). The whole point of mentioning what is or isn't a sin is not to make us afraid or guilty, but to give us road signs--to help us avoid such mistakes. However, we tend to be hardheaded and often only learn through trial and error.

Who will get to heaven?

Face to face with my Father

Face to face with my Father

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Seeking the middle path..

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