Jim
Nets of Wonder
Actually, I agree with that. In a way, that’s exactly what I’m doing. In fact, I see Bahá’u’lláh telling me that.
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My current version of Hinduism
- Thread starter Jim
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ajay0
Well-Known Member
In Hinduism, one needs a Guru or teacher to understand the basics due to the complexities of the philosophies, especially advaita/nonduality.
As Emerson stated, "A teacher makes things easier to understand."
One who has a brilliant intellect need not have a teacher/mentor and can understand the philosophies better through researching skills and maybe spending some time with sages and scholars. However such brilliant intellects are rare, and that is why teachers and mentors are sought so that the student can understand and grasp easily within a short period of time under a good teacher. This has been stated by Bodhidharma himself.
There are some who lack intellectual brilliance or teacher/mentors, and get into deluded philosophical ideas and then perpetuate it to others as well . The blind will only lead the blind to the ditch.
This is one of the dangers facing Hinduism at the moment, as the gullible have no idea of the genuine and fraudulent, and get into trouble following fraudsters and pseudoscholars.
We have a toolset in Hinduism to take care of this issue...
Kabir on the need for critical examination to weed out the false and fraudulent...
As Emerson stated, "A teacher makes things easier to understand."
One who has a brilliant intellect need not have a teacher/mentor and can understand the philosophies better through researching skills and maybe spending some time with sages and scholars. However such brilliant intellects are rare, and that is why teachers and mentors are sought so that the student can understand and grasp easily within a short period of time under a good teacher. This has been stated by Bodhidharma himself.
There are some who lack intellectual brilliance or teacher/mentors, and get into deluded philosophical ideas and then perpetuate it to others as well . The blind will only lead the blind to the ditch.
This is one of the dangers facing Hinduism at the moment, as the gullible have no idea of the genuine and fraudulent, and get into trouble following fraudsters and pseudoscholars.
We have a toolset in Hinduism to take care of this issue...
Kabir on the need for critical examination to weed out the false and fraudulent...
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Those who cannot think for themselves, need Gurus.
Not always. I never had a guru or teacher and understood nonduality before I even knew it was advaita or Hinduism.
Of course, learning that my understanding was, in essence, the advaita vedanta school of philosophy of Hinduism has helped me to hone this understanding by way of Scripture and further research, but I'm still without a teacher or guru.
I've been quite successful in choosing my own curriculum, so to speak. Well at least in choosing that which hasn't already fallen into my lap.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
Not always. I never had a guru or teacher and understood nonduality before I even knew it was advaita or Hinduism.
Nondualist teachings are also prevalent all over the world. It's possible that you gained understanding from all this, and was thereby lead to its formal or traditional philosophical classification.
If you don't find a teacher soon, you'll live this life in vain. It's true, you have the buddha-nature. But without the help of a teacher you'll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher's help.
If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn't need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you're so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you'll understand. - Bodhidharma
I would say this saying of Bodhidharma is applicable in Hinduism. I do know of enlightened masters of Hindu origin who had no Gurus except for their researching skills and conversations with scholars and saints, and ability to mine useful data from them. But such rare masters had great intellectual abilities, capacity for precise application and maturity at a young age. This innate talent may perhaps also be attributed to work done in past lives.
I would say it is important to assess oneself and one's skills thoroughly and precisely and then determine whether one needs a teacher or not.
A genius need not have a teacher. But a mediocre student who understands the limitations of his abilities and strives to transcend them under a good teacher has a greater chance of attaining enlightenment, than a talented one who strives on his own learning through trial and error.
Aesop's tale of the hare and the tortoise is insightful in this regard.
My Guru was rather adamant that one thinks for himself, as are many. I was at a teaching session one day when he was talking about what it takes to become a devotee, and in that particular case, a young man considering entering the monastery. The young man was full of doubts, and kept asking questions about what Gurudeva thought of his decisions. Finally the Guru stopped that line and turned to a senior monk and drilled him on the events of 30 years earlier.
"Did you ask me if you should become a monk?"
The senior monk said 'No'.
"Did you ask me to pay your way to the monastery?"
"No"
It went this way for about 10 minutes, with Guru asking all these 'doubt' questions, and his sincere devotee saying no.
The young man got the message, and never did join the monastery.
So yes, I have a Guru, but I can think for myself. I rarely communicate externally other than the occasional private audience. Gurudeva's messages were like this:
"Don't lean on me, lean on your own spine."
"Proceed with confidence."
"This path is yours and yours alone."
etc.
And yes, if you had a life-changing decision, He would gladly give His opinion. 'This is just my advice, ......."
As far as 'needing' a Guru goes, that's something during yoga when inner stuff starts happening. But at that point, it's not words, it's silence.
A Guru however is not only an intellectual guide, also someone who teaches about proper allround development, so also a guide regarding spiritual practices. The Guru dispells darkness (ignorance).
In old Sanskrit gu means "darkness" and ru means "dispeller", "dispelling agency". Therefore the entity , the guiding faculty that dispells all darkness, all spiritual darkness, is the guru, and gurupújanam is doing as per the desire of the guru. (from Discourses on Tantra volume 2, page 106)
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ajay0
Well-Known Member
Yeah, if the Guru is enlightened, he can help bring about a heightened state of consciousness in the disciple who is sitting nearby, even without any words or teachings. Ramana mostly remained silent, and most of his visitors were content just to be in his presence.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
Here I am not insisting that everyone should have a Guru or spiritual master.
It all boils down to individual choice, psychological comfort zones, the degree of interest in enlightenment., accuracy in assessing one's capacities, abilities, temperament and so on.
Some are not even interested in enlightenment and may not believe that such a thing or phenomenon exists. Some may understand that the phenomenon exists but may have no interest in attaining it.
For those who are interested in enlightenment, being with an enlightened master can be potent in shortening the learning curve and may reach higher states of consciousness within a relatively much shorter period of time, compared to one who may not.
And there are times when even attachment to the master can be an impediment to enlightenment, especially in an advanced disciple.
It requires a great deal of maturity and ability in a disciple to ensure that his time with a spiritual master turns to be a productive exercise and not a counterproductive one.
It all boils down to individual choice, psychological comfort zones, the degree of interest in enlightenment., accuracy in assessing one's capacities, abilities, temperament and so on.
Some are not even interested in enlightenment and may not believe that such a thing or phenomenon exists. Some may understand that the phenomenon exists but may have no interest in attaining it.
For those who are interested in enlightenment, being with an enlightened master can be potent in shortening the learning curve and may reach higher states of consciousness within a relatively much shorter period of time, compared to one who may not.
And there are times when even attachment to the master can be an impediment to enlightenment, especially in an advanced disciple.
It requires a great deal of maturity and ability in a disciple to ensure that his time with a spiritual master turns to be a productive exercise and not a counterproductive one.
I think that depends on the type of Guru. I cannot imagine that attachment to let's say Shri Krishna can form an impediment to your spiritual growth when even His enemies got enlightenment through intensely hating Him. With more ordinary gurus this may be a different matter.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
Well, Gurus like Krishna are quite rare.
There were some who were extremely attached to Buddha's personality, prompting him to exhort his disciples to look at the teachings and not at the master.
The Buddha nature or Self ( Awareness) is the real Guru and is within the disciple. When the disciple accesses this within himself, he will know intuitively what to do and what not to do.
'Self-awareness tells you at every step what needs to be done.' ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj
When every action of yours is preceded by witnessing (awareness), then every move you make in this world becomes perfect and significant. ~ Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
If you maintain mindfulness you will unmistakenly know what to do and what not to do. Thus clear awareness is most important; it is your inner Buddha. ~ Garchen Rinpoche
The external Guru's task is to enable the disciple to purify himself of his defilements created by desires in the form of cravings/aversions, so that he can access the internal Guru (Self or Buddha nature) within himself. Upon the completion of this task, the external Guru's work is done.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Mea culpa. I believe I usually do preface things with I believe. I believe that I would say that not all beliefs are imaginary but no doubt many are. The problem is that without a known source there is no way to tell which is which.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe my source is God. He tells me things He figures I need to know.
Beliefs are personal and subjective. A known source is no guarantee beliefs are anything more than imagination or hearsay. We believe George Washington was a living breathing person, but no one is alive today to say they shook his hand. For me, George Washington need not be a real person, but what he did and how he did it is important. Whether Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Homer (not Simpson, the poet
), are historical or fiction doesn't mean as much as what they represent, said or did and what they may be metaphors and allegories for. So, if imaginary friends, heroes, deities are cause for advancement and improvement, they're fine by me.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I must have been having a bad day. The correct reference was 18:20.
And so does mine. This is the point you repeatedly miss... your beliefs are no more correct than mine. The voices you hear (if any) or the book(s) you read are no more valid and truthful than mine. You will not advance until you accept that truth is relative. What works for you works only for you. What works for me works only for me.
BG 18.20:
Understand that knowledge to be in the mode of goodness by which a person sees one undivided imperishable reality within all diverse living beings. - Swami Mukundananda
That knowledge by which one undivided spiritual nature is seen in all existences, undivided in the divided, is knowledge in the mode of goodness. - Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Prabhupada
Muffled
Jesus in me
Beliefs are personal and subjective. A known source is no guarantee beliefs are anything more than imagination or hearsay. We believe George Washington was a living breathing person, but no one is alive today to say they shook his hand. For me, George Washington need not be a real person, but what he did and how he did it is important. Whether Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Homer (not Simpson, the poet
I believe God as a source is as close to a guarantee that anyone gets. Subjective beliefs are often neither an advancement nor an improvement. It is like the Democratic party calling themselves progressive to legitimize the murder of babies. The fact is that has been the history of man though the ages and there isn't anything progressive about it.
All religious people of all varieties believe that their information came from God. ... Some think he wrote one book. Others figure he wrote several, many under a pseudonym. Guy had a multifaceted voice in writing.
Muffled
Jesus in me
BG 18.20:
Understand that knowledge to be in the mode of goodness by which a person sees one undivided imperishable reality within all diverse living beings. - Swami Mukundananda
That knowledge by which one undivided spiritual nature is seen in all existences, undivided in the divided, is knowledge in the mode of goodness. - Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Prabhupada
I believe now we are getting to the nub of the problem. With contending translations one might be correct and the other incorrect. It happens sometimes that a preconceived view will alter a translation.