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Free speech laws on college campuses

Scott C.

Just one guy
Booing is a time honored American tradition. What you want is to enforce politeness on people, people don't have to be polite to a person who isn't being polite to them. If a speaker is calling for the extermination of the Jews, you don't hold back and let him finish up on why the Jews should be exterminated. You call him out right there and now. I know that is an extreme example but I am just saying that there is a time to heckle and boo someone and if they don't like it too bad. I am free to be impolite to a jerk. Freedom hurts.

Ok, I'm not trolling you or following you, but I was just reading another thread about a street preacher who was arrested for disturbing the peace because apparently some thought he was being obnoxious on the street corner. I read that you defended the arrest as he was being a public nuisance. But if someone comes to a university political speech and they start making noise to disrupt the speech, and if the audience is offended, since they came to listen and someone is being unruly, loud and annoying, and the speaker is not being allowed to be heard, how is that not an equal offense to what you feel the street preacher did? Why does the statement "freedom hurts" not apply to the preachers right to preach even if others were "hurt" (i.e., offended or annoyed)?
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
I agree. People are free to boo, free to cheer, free to praise god, free to say god doesn't exist, free to show disgust, free to show support, free to whatever.
My question is who's freedom out trumph's the other persons freedom?

Personally, it's not in my nature to be rude to a speaker with whom I disagree. If someone is booing or scoffing, it's annoying to me. There's a line somewhere, where the person should be escorted out. There's a scale ranging from somewhat impolite to being so loud and obnoxious that the event can't proceed and the speaker can't be heard. People who go to public events with that agenda, should be escorted out and/or arrested depending on the severity.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Personally, it's not in my nature to be rude to a speaker with whom I disagree. If someone is booing or scoffing, it's annoying to me. There's a line somewhere, where the person should be escorted out. There's a scale ranging from somewhat impolite to being so loud and obnoxious that the event can't proceed and the speaker can't be heard. People who go to public events with that agenda, should be escorted out and/or arrested depending on the severity.

We see it every day from opinion to religion to politics. Who's freedom out trumph's the other persons freedom?
If they are all equal then no one's wrong.

To be more clear if group "A" has a right to protest you which is group "B" but you as well as group "B" have the right to protest group "A"... Who is right and who is wrong?
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Ok, I'm not trolling you or following you, but I was just reading another thread about a street preacher who was arrested for disturbing the peace because apparently some thought he was being obnoxious on the street corner. I read that you defended the arrest as he was being a public nuisance. But if someone comes to a university political speech and they start making noise to disrupt the speech, and if the audience is offended, since they came to listen and someone is being unruly, loud and annoying, and the speaker is not being allowed to be heard, how is that not an equal offense to what you feel the street preacher did? Why does the statement "freedom hurts" not apply to the preachers right to preach even if others were "hurt" (i.e., offended or annoyed)?
Because that preacher crossed a line. He was loud and they didn't invite him to engage them, he was forcing his speech upon them. And I agree if you come to a person's speech with a bullhorn you are being more than just a heckler, you are disturbing the peace. I believe people have the right to heckle a speaker because the speaker has the mic and therefore a bit more power than the hecklers and can do more than the hecklers can. When comedians get heckled one of the first things they do is win the audience back and talk over the hecklers. If a public speaker can't do that then maybe they shouldn't be into public speaking.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The only reason this exists is because of far right extremists salty that their far right extremism isn't welcome in academic environments. But Americans are super weird about their worship of free speech to a degree that virtually no other first world nation shares. To the extent where Popper's tolerence paradox comes into play where every egregious perspective is thought to deserve a platform and respect. In actuality, giving extremist platforms deteriorates free speech in the long term, not strengthens it.
HcuZIT5w8xJLMXoISDexG1GNz5Dj7xHO_QGeueMtdPU.jpg
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
The only reason this exists is because of far right extremists salty that their far right extremism isn't welcome in academic environments. But Americans are super weird about their worship of free speech to a degree that virtually no other first world nation shares. To the extent where Popper's tolerence paradox comes into play where every egregious perspective is thought to deserve a platform and respect. In actuality, giving extremist platforms deteriorates free speech in the long term, not strengthens it.
HcuZIT5w8xJLMXoISDexG1GNz5Dj7xHO_QGeueMtdPU.jpg
I know. Why give the benefits of free speech to those who oppose free speech? I'll give them their free speech, but they better know that there a consequences to their free speech.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The only reason this exists is because of far right extremists salty that their far right extremism isn't welcome in academic environments. But Americans are super weird about their worship of free speech to a degree that virtually no other first world nation shares. To the extent where Popper's tolerence paradox comes into play where every egregious perspective is thought to deserve a platform and respect. In actuality, giving extremist platforms deteriorates free speech in the long term, not strengthens it.
HcuZIT5w8xJLMXoISDexG1GNz5Dj7xHO_QGeueMtdPU.jpg

The reason this exists is because every American thinks thier right to free speech out trumps the other persons right to free speech. It is seen on a daily basis throughout the United States.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
That is vague language. Bet you dollars to donuts this law will be challenged in courts when the first college to disciplines a student for heckling a speaker. Heckling should not be against the law.

It's not about heckling or protesting. It's about protecting conservatives speakers from the violent far left.
 
The only reason this exists is because of far right extremists salty that their far right extremism isn't welcome in academic environments. But Americans are super weird about their worship of free speech to a degree that virtually no other first world nation shares. To the extent where Popper's tolerence paradox comes into play where every egregious perspective is thought to deserve a platform and respect. In actuality, giving extremist platforms deteriorates free speech in the long term, not strengthens it.
HcuZIT5w8xJLMXoISDexG1GNz5Dj7xHO_QGeueMtdPU.jpg

That isn't really an accurate depiction of the PoT as it is missing some important caveats.

The passage appears as a footnote to a discussion on Plato's Republic, which also covers the paradoxes of democracy and freedom:

“Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement”

Popper, Karl Sir. “The Open Society and Its Enemies”

Suppression of intolerance is given as a last resort, not as general good practice. Note he also adds 'as long as we can counter them with rational argument' and it seems to me a university campus is exactly the place to try this.

The passage in red is also relevant as this does seem like it could very easily be applied to those who routinely aim to deplatform anyone they dislike, often through the use of violence an intimidation.

Popper was advocating a theoretical last resort against genuine extremism that poses an existential threat to the open society. There is a "Social Justice Activist" subset among progressives that has basically deemed everyone outwith their ideology to be 'white supremacists', 'fascists' or whatever.

The PoT is dependent on reciprocity, you shouldn't be allowed to use your protected free speech to end free speech, or democratic means to end democracy, etc.

Once it starts being applied to 'anyone whose politics my group dislikes' it loses any value and simply becomes a tool for legitimising repression.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Well, the wording refers to those “who unduly interfere with the expressive activities of others," which is not the same thing as merely protesting.
WTF does "unduly interfere" even mean? It will mean that the state gets to decide, now, which student groups it will punish for objecting to some school sponsored speaker.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's still a form of free speech that is protected as long has there is no clear and present danger implied or a threat of violence.


Interesting video. One thing that was mentioned is that there's no clear-cut, black-and-white answer on this question.

What I would wonder is why it's so important to heckle or disrupt a speaker anyway. If throwing a tantrum is the only way one can think of to challenge/oppose someone else's ideas or thoughts, then I would say it's an indication of a limited intellect. `
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The only reason this exists is because of far right extremists salty that their far right extremism isn't welcome in academic environments. But Americans are super weird about their worship of free speech to a degree that virtually no other first world nation shares. To the extent where Popper's tolerence paradox comes into play where every egregious perspective is thought to deserve a platform and respect. In actuality, giving extremist platforms deteriorates free speech in the long term, not strengthens it.
HcuZIT5w8xJLMXoISDexG1GNz5Dj7xHO_QGeueMtdPU.jpg

This would be true if one believes that speech (and only speech) is what can cause a tolerant society to become an intolerant society. I don't agree with that supposition.

An uneven or unstable economy is a far greater contributory factor to extremism. When there's widespread poverty, homelessness, and/or situations where people have to bring wheelbarrows full of money just so they can buy a loaf of bread - these are the signals to look out for, not speech.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Booing is a time honored American tradition. What you want is to enforce politeness on people, people don't have to be polite to a person who isn't being polite to them. If a speaker is calling for the extermination of the Jews, you don't hold back and let him finish up on why the Jews should be exterminated. You call him out right there and now. I know that is an extreme example but I am just saying that there is a time to heckle and boo someone and if they don't like it too bad. I am free to be impolite to a jerk. Freedom hurts.
That can only lead to misunderstandings and misuse, making anyone allowed to yell and scream at anyone that they don't agree with. Doesn't matter what the topic is, if what the speaker is saying is wrong, it will still be wrong whether or not you let him finish his arguments.

Also imagine this...."Jews ought to be treated with no respect and hunted down an imprisoned for being inferior human beings..." At this point you start yelling and screaming, without hearing the last of the sentence...which could be...", that was the common believe by the Nazis, but we know that this world view is wrong both scientifically and historically." Now this is not a debate where we are speaking, but if people don't let others finish you can have misunderstandings. Had you let me finish the sentence, you would probably agree with what I just wrote. But by interrupting me, you jump to the conclusion that Im a Nazi thinking those things which is not the case. Your interruption and not allowing me to finish my point, makes it impossible for you to even understand what im talking about.

So its not about politeness or whatever, its about actually understanding what people are saying, before jumping to judgement. After I have presented my argument and it makes no sense or it is racism or whatever, and you are certain that this is in fact the case. Then you can yell at the person.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
So, if a heckler or some group of protesters wants to raise a ruckus to disrupt a speaker event, the law requires the college to impose some kind of disciplinary action.
I've seen the shout out routine

with speaker events....the podium has the advantage
and should

rebuttal is not the norm when the guest speaker has the mic

still....uncontrolled shouting and disruption is not the way to go
protesters should find a podium of their own
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Texas Governor Signs Law Protecting Free Speech on College Campuses

Tennessee & Texas -- Campus Free Speech Gains Ground Quietly in Many States | National Review



It seems that Texas is the 17th state to enact laws like this for college campuses.



This is interesting. So, if a heckler or some group of protesters wants to raise a ruckus to disrupt a speaker event, the law requires the college to impose some kind of disciplinary action.

Institutions of higher learning have traditionally been viewed as bastions for the free and open exchange of ideas, but now we're at the point where the government has to step in and remind them of that.

We have been at and well past that point for
some time, but yeah, better late than never.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Doesn't it only apply while the event is active? Once its over, you can do it?
and your approach would be what?
hey you....I got some questions

as if you assume the speaker has no other schedule?

fact is....if you don't like what was said....
too bad

if you want your differing viewpoint known.....
find a podium
 
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