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Why bother debating or discussing?

shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
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A good question, that I have asked myself many times.

For me, there are two primary reasons why I am here.

First, debating an intelligent person, as most are here, gives me the opportunity to examine my own beliefs, to reaffirm them based upon responding to cogent attacks, and to keep sharp in examining arguments and responding to them.

Second, which intersects with the first is the fact that I have reached the age where I am called a senior citizen. We who were young in the 60´s never thought this could happen, we were going to stay young and just party on, it didn´t work out that way.

As a result of being a SS, I need to exercise my mind, use it, or I could slip into what we all fear, and at 70 it could be lurking very close, dementia. It terrifies we geezers.

Debating here, even debating the weiners, of which there are more than a few, is all helpful gravy for me.
 
Srivijaya

Srivijaya

Active Member
shmogie said:
First, debating an intelligent person, as most are here, gives me the opportunity to examine my own beliefs, to reaffirm them based upon responding to cogent attacks, and to keep sharp in examining arguments and responding to them.
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Well said! This board is for people of all faiths and none, so it's not a cosy bubble of any single religion or viewpoint. This variety means that you can encounter exactly what shmogie said - views and opinions which challenge your own and make you work to defend (or re-evaluate) them.
Fair enough if nobody can 'convert' anyone else. That's fine. Seeds are planted and horizons are opened... or not as the case may be.
 
HonestJoe

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect.
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I'd offer two counterpoints. First, just because someone doesn't admit that their opinion has changed doesn't mean it wasn't (or won't be in time). Indeed, some of the more aggressive objections to debate or challenges could indicate a subconscious reaction to a weakening of confidence in their position.

Secondly, debates in general are typically not about switching the opinions of the debaters but influencing the opinions of the audience. A good debate won't push anyone to any extreme position one way or another but will lead them to think about different arguments or elements that might temper, balance or adjust their initial position.
 
siti

siti

Well-Known Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
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Hmmm! I see! Interesting points you have made...I'm going to think about it.
 
Shad

Shad

Veteran Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
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Debate often is aimed at the audience not the speakers.

God is not a topic one can show to be correct or incorrect by any meaningful standard. One is due to the limitations via definitions we place on Classical God which hinders investigation. Being outside the universe for one. At best one can tear down arguments for God be it logic or a text but not God itself.

Debate in religion often degrades as religion is often tied to ego as in one's identity and worldview. An attack upon a religion becomes an attack upon the person.

Humans tend to think they are right about the beliefs we happen to hold. We like validation from others to the point of seeking it.
 
dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
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It's only the philosophical materalists who think God is imaginary.

I think when we write posts it's not to debate. It's not to try to prove anything to the other person. I think the main benefit from posting about religion is like all topics of knowledge the only way you truly learn about a something or find out what you know is by writing about it.
 
Samana Johann

Samana Johann

Restricted by request
Householder Jos

"Bhikkhus, five kinds of talks are unpleasant varying from person to person. What five?

"Bhikkhus, a talk on faith is unpleasant to one without faith, a talk on virtues is unpleasant to an unvirtuous, a talk on learnedness is unpleasant to one without learning, a talk on benevolence is unpleasant to a miser, a talk on wisdom is unpleasant to a stupid.

"Bhikkhus, why is a talk on faith unpleasant to one without faith?

"Bhikkhus, one without faith hearing a talk on faith becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of faith in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of faith. Therefore to one without faith a talk on faith is unpleasant.

"Bhikkhus, why is a talk on virtues unpleasant to an unvirtuous?

"Bhikkhus, an unvirtuous one hearing a talk on virtues becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of virtues in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of virtues. Therefore to one without virtues a talk on virtues is unpleasant.

"Bhikkhus, why is a talk on learnedness unpleasant to one without learning?

"Bhikkhus, one without learning hearing a talk on learning becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of learning in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of learnedness. Therefore to one without learnedness a talk on learnedness is unpleasant.

"Bhikkhus, why is a talk on benevolence unpleasant to a miser?

"Bhikkhus, a miser hearing a talk on benevolence becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of benevolence in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of benevolence. Therefore to a miser a talk on benevolence is unpleasant.

"Bhikkhus, why is a talk on wisdom unpleasant to a stupid?

"Bhikkhus, a stupid one hearing a talk on wisdom becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of wisdom in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of wisdom. Therefore to a stupid a talk on wisdom is unpleasant.

"Bhikkhus, five kinds of talks are pleasant varying from person to person. What five?... Dukkathā Sutta: Unpleasant talk
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Extended answer on it: Talking about Dharma (good teachings, re-legion) - is it worthwhile?

The more wise, the smaller ones targed of desire of association with unwise and inattentive people. And if throwing those five stones into a deep lake, one knows fast it's inhabitants, monsters and dangers, by suddenly returning waves.

"Through an element it is, monks, that beings flow together, meet together. Beings of low tastes flow together, meet together with them of low tastes. They of virtuous tastes flow together, meet together with them of virtuous tastes. So have they done in the past. So will they do in the future. So do they now in the present." The Greatest Blessings​
 
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We Never Know

We Never Know

No Slack
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
Click to expand...

From what I have experienced here there are several that are here just to argue. They spend many hours of every day here, sadly this is all they have.
If you say it's right, they will say its wrong. If you say its wrong they will say its right. Is it human nature or just being arguementive. You have to decide.
 
Scott C.

Scott C.

Just one guy
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
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There are some things I believe strongly enough that it's highly unlikely that anybody here will change my mind. I enjoy learning what others believe, even if I strongly oppose what they believe. I like to investigate how reasonably intelligent people come to such different conclusions. I also enjoy explaining what I believe and why. It's a victory to me, not if I prove you wrong, or win the debate points, but if I can get a "thanks for that explanation I never thought of it that way and I can see why you think the way you do". (That doesn't happen often. :))
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
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I don’t think it’s all that black and white. There are so many variables when the human mind, spirit and personality are involved that it is impossible to measure the effect.

Minds are affected and attitudes do change. And I myself have learned from many mistakes I’ve made and from what many have shared.

Above all one very wonderful and unique experience is being had by all which I believe is changing everyone and that is to view and treat all as equal fellow human beings which is the foundation of the rules of this great forum.

You can come to RF and practice respectful debate with ALL whether religious or not, black or white of whatever nationality.

But you cannot come here to practice racism, or discriminate against others. So this forum, by it’s very nature is inculcating in its members respect for all humanity and if we break the rules we are warned.

So what we have at RF is a safe place for humanity to come and discuss as well as share matters that are important to them.

Just by debating here, atheist vs religionists, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Jewish and Baha’i, of whatever sex, nationality or race, we are in fact bringing humanity together to have dialogue and to me that is absolutely incredible and has never happened before in humanity’s history.
 
J

JJ50

Well-Known Member
I post on these sort of forums as I wish to challenge the extreme Christians who state as a fact they have the 'truth', when all they have is a belief without any factual evidence to support it. I have no problem with moderate Christians like my own three daughters, even though I don't see it their way.
 
PoetPhilosopher

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
JJ50 said:
I post on these sort of forums as I wish to challenge the extreme Christians who state as a fact they have the 'truth', when all they have is a belief without any factual evidence to support it. I have no problem with moderate Christians like my own three daughters, even though I don't see it their way.
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I post in the Debates because I think they edge me closer in Critical Thinking toward my goal of unraveling the mysteries of life. Do note I never said I would solve any mysteries, but that on an invisible scale, I may still become closer to solving them.
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
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I agree it can be a bit like trench warfare.

Personally, I am motivated by two things. One is that the most interesting threads are those in which someone introduces me to something I did not know before. This can happen any time, and even cranks or silly people can come forward with new information to improve my knowledge of subjects I know little about. The other is that there is an attack on science and reason in public discourse today, by all sorts of people, from religious extremists to people to with political motivations of various sorts. As a scientifically literate person - and a practising Catholic - I feel I have a duty to keep the spirit of the Enlightenment alive.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
AT-AT said:
I post in the Debates because I think they edge me closer in Critical Thinking toward my goal of unraveling the mysteries of life. Do note I never said I would solve any mysteries, but that on an invisible scale, I may still become closer to solving them.
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What is one's guiding principle for positive debate or comparative study of religions or no religions, please?

Regards
 
Mock Turtle

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
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I suppose one reason why many attempt to debate on religious views is that they hope to impart information or views that others perhaps might not have examined. Few probably expect others to change their stance on anything related to religion through what others say though.

As so many always point out - it is a matter of belief, and with the case of religion, it mostly comes from a feeling (or experiences) anyway rather than thinking through all the logical reasons why we believe or not. And we all seem to differ as to how we take in 'information'. For myself, it comes down to probability and how we interpret evidence - with much 'evidence' coming from human sources that fails to arouse any belief in such - being the eternal skeptic. And I have never had any experiences that I couldn't explain through natural processes - nor have any of my friends. But I can see why we seem to differ in how we interpret 'evidence'.
 
A Vestigial Mote

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Jos said:
one has to wonder what's the point?
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One could use such a venue as a sounding board for their ideas, a chance to get different perspectives, a chance to have some of your ideas challenged. What did you think this was?

My personal opinion about the people who ask questions like this ("what's the point?") or make statements about how the site seems to be "going downhill" or state that what they see/read/experience ends up being "too much" for them to cope with, or how everyone seems to be at one another's throats - is that they aren't ready to face the world without rose-colored glasses. There's still some sort of a shell that needs cracked through. There is still a lot of shoring up of defenses and investigations into the very best arguments their chosen path has to offer that they need to embark on. They simply aren't "ready" in a way. They need shelter. And while it may seem incredibly inviting at times, make no mistake - that kind of shelter is more a prison than a happy home.
 
Wandering Monk

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Jos said:
Based on the brief amount of time I've spent on this forum and that I've spent involved in/looking at debates with others concerning matters of religion, faith, metaphysics etc away from this forum, it seems to me that these discussions make no sense since the participants involved don't enter into it with good faith ie. a willingness to be open minded and change one's mind or position if shown to be incorrect. Both believers and non believers alike, including myself, it seems, only want to demonstrate why they're correct and the other person is wrong rather than genuinely wanting to listen to the other side and change one's mind if they're shown to be wrong and so I ask what's the point in discussing and debating if everyone's just out to prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is? Heck even on this forum, some believers' only purpose seems to be proselytizing or proving that their religion/faith is correct while tearing down any religion that disagrees with their own whereas the purpose of some non believers seems to be to prove that religion is false or God doesn't exist or is imaginary and that anyone who believes any of it is foolish... with all this, one has to wonder what's the point?
Click to expand...

Opinions are one thing, facts are another.
 
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