Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

Deeje · Jun 10, 2019

Clear said:
Forum members :

Does anyone see ANY data in any of Deejes posts that offers better and more conclusive objective data as to what the Jews themselves believe than what the Jews themselves said they believed?

He offers theories about Jewish apostasy from early belief. Where is the evidence of change in belief on this specific theory on this specific doctrine?

While Disparagement of the Jews plays to an interesting debate, it still does not take the place of objective data describing their beliefs. If the ancient Jews in their ancient descriptions tell us they believed in an afterlife, then I do not think someone who admits they do not care what the Jews say and does not have interest in authentic history should have more credibility than the claims the Jews themselves make. Especially when the non-historian offers no objective data other than a personal interpretation of a scripture which the Jews themselves wrote. Readers who want objective, rational, logical data will still have no cause to doubt the Jews believed what they say they believed unless someone can provide objective evidence otherwise.

Other than personal interpretation, what data has been offered that the Jews do not believe what they say they believed?

Clear

What does it matter what other forum members think? What do you offer from the scriptures to support the teaching of an immortal soul? I have given you many scriptures, all of which have been ignored in favor of apostate Jewish sources that claim a belief in life after death.

Start with Adam....was he told anything about an afterlife? Did God threaten an eternal punishment for breaking the only law that these two had in the garden? Where did God tell Adam that he would go? (Genesis 3:19) Heaven?....hell?

Job spoke of being concealed in the grave (sheol) till God's anger had subsided and then asked God to remember him and to restore his life.

Where was Lazarus when Jesus called him out of his tomb?

Jesus answers....
"After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died". (John 11:11-14 ESV)

Had Lazarus gone to a better place? If so, why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again?

What did the apostle Paul say about those who were "sleeping in death"?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...ESV
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

Read those verses carefully and you will see that those who died were to "sleep" until Christ returns.Those alive at the time of his coming would not have to die at all.

You want data? The Bible is all the "data" I need. I believe that you are on shaky ground my friend. Please listen to God rather than to those who abandoned the truth thousands of years ago, and merely tell you what you want to hear.

There is no "immortal soul" taught in the Bible.....but it is taught in every false religion because its is a perpetuation of the devil's first lie to Eve....."you surely will not die". Satan lied...God didn't.

Deeje · Jun 10, 2019

dybmh said:
@Deeje, Thank you for your kind reply, my friend. I am interested in exploring these things. But I need to do it in my own way. I am at the point in my life where, thank God, I know myself. And part of knowing myself is knowing how I learn, and knowing how I can sabotage my own best intentions.

That's why I say, I need to explore these things in my own way.

Most sincerely, I appreciate you, and all JWs for their devotion to maintain the accuracy of the text. It is very important to me ( and others ).

Any time you need clarification, just ask...I am always here, and so are a few of my brothers.

Thief · Jun 10, 2019

I see a line drawn

Our Father

whose Father?....yours?...mine?

brothers are we?

and is that line YOURS to draw?

see Prodigal Son

Clear · Jun 11, 2019

POST ONE OF THREE

Hi @Deeje;

I do apologize for insinuating that you consciously tried to deceive on a historical point. That was out of line and I am sorry. I do NOT think you consciously tried to lie to anyone. I think you probably were simply applying your own theology onto ancient Jews and did not realize that it was in error. I did look through your posts and tried to find some relevant data showing any coherent evidence from your post that was of more historical value than that given to us by the Jews themselves. I could not find anyone and I feel very, very comfortable in allowing readers to come to their own decisions as to whether they believe the Jews believed in an afterlilfe as they said they did, or not.

REGARDING A DISCUSSION ABOUT AN "IMMORTAL SOUL"

I do not mind at all, having a discussion with you about Early Judeao-Christian beliefs regarding the spirit of man, but I believe that you and I are passionate enough about religion and history to make it necessary to define very narrowly a subject so as to try to keep historical relevance. Though I am familiar with scriptures, I cannot divorce myself from considerations regarding early Christianity and their context and interpretations. I also cannot divorce myself from the earliest texts. I think the topic should be very basic, such as “Did Judeo-Christianity teach that a spirit exists independently of the body” rather than a more complicated principle. I don’t really have much interest in modern Christian theories or theology and, if it is ok with you, I would like you to quote from the Jehovahs Witness New World translation as I am quite interested to see how it compares with normal bibles and I am sure readers would also have interest as well.

I also have some familiarity with scriptures, but the problem for accurate history is that "naked scripture" (i.e. scripture without authentic historical context) is often not clear, thus we have many competing christianities with competing systems of interpretation and competing theologies.

The various Christian movement with their various differing beliefs all layer a specific context and interpretation ONTO the text to support their worldviews. The problem in debates is often not the specific text, but rather WHOSE context and WHOSE interpretation does one use in telling us what a scripture means? My point is that the earliest Christians such as those the apostles taught and their earliest converts together with THEIR interpretations and base beliefs, have a higher likelihood of representing early and authentic Christian doctrine than do the interpretations developed by Christian movements of almost 2000 years later.

The value of the early Christian diaries, especially of the earliest converts is that they describe what the apostles and those the apostles had sent out were teaching and what such things meant TO THEM.

USING JEHOVAHS WITNESS MODERN 'SLEEP DEATH" VERSUS THE EARLY JEWISH AND EARLY CHRISTIAN CONCEPT OF SLEEP AS AN EXAMPLE

If we are to use scriptures that mentions sleep (as your use in Post #141), do we apply the relatively modern Jehovahs Witness meaning and interpretation to the ancient text or do we use the ancient Jewish and Christian meaning and interpretation to the ancient text (which was, after all, written in their time period)? The modern christians do not have nor apply the same meaning as did the ancient Christians nor the ancient Jews.

For example ; Jewish belief about sleep involve both body and the spirit (some translations use the word “soul”, but, Deeje and I agree that these are not really the same) The Talmud refers to sleep as 1/60th of death (Be’rachot 57b) and dreams as 160th of revelation because they are related. Sleep is NOT a time of complete “inaction”, but merely the consciousness is weakened and control of conscious faculties is lost (we do not speak nor act with regard to mortal life and lifes priorities in a conscious manner – thus sleep is referred to as an exile / galut of sorts). During sleep, it is a time of rejuvenation and refreshment of the spirit/soul and body).

SLEEP IS A TIME OF COMMUNICATION AND REVELATION

During sleep, Jewish tradition reflect the concept that a portion of the soul leaves the body. This is reflected in the morning Jewish prayer : I offer thanks before you, living and eternal King, for You have mercifully restored my soul within me; Your faithfulness is great” Importantly, when the soul is free of the body, it will recieve revelations that do not happen when a person is awake. In the Mishna, at Sinai, the Jews slept early and well (and God helped by keeping the insects from biting). This was the intention of the Jews in going to sleep. They were hoping that through sleep they would be able to reach greater level of holiness in preparation for greater revelation.

The ancient Jewish sages taught that it is only the physical bodies that are unconscious; the spirit part of us remains awake and allows God to communicate with our hearts and mind while we sleep. Song of Solomon 5:2 “I sleep but my heart is awake, it is the voice of my beloved that knocks.” Intergral to this poem is the concept that the mortal body sleeps, but the spirit/soul is awake and is able to listen to the voice of the beloved in the poem of multiple meanings.

Rabbi M. Miller explains this belief that ‘When we are asleep, the physical part of us, that part filled with the cares of this world, our lust, our fleshly desires are out for the count and our hearts stand open and vulnerable to the influence of spiritual forces.” It is this principles that underlies the many scriptural examples of individuals receiving communication from God in dreams .

For examples :

1 king 3: 5 In Gibeon the Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee….15 And Solomon awoke; and, behold, it was a dream. And he came to Jerusalem, and stood before the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and offered up burnt offerings, and offered peace offerings, and made a feast to all his servants.

I might as well point out that this principle of sleep as a time of revelation reflects ancient Christian belief as well. Acts 2: 17 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The chief butler told his dream to Joseph in Gen. 40:9.

Daniel then won the favor of Nebuchadnezzar and Darius by his power of interpreting dreams (Dan. 2; 4)

“17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.” Dan 1 : 17

Consider Nebuchadnezzar’s dream when it is revealed to Daniel where he saw a great image, a stone cut from the mountain without hands destroyed the image, and the stone grew and filled the whole earth—The stone is the latter-day kingdom of God.

1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him…. The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: Daniel 2

Dan 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

This is NOT to say all dreams were given of God. There were among them the false prophets and the people who faked dreams and revelation. Deut 13:1-5 1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder ….3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:

POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS

Clear · Jun 11, 2019

POST TWO OF THREE

However, there are many examples where authentic revelation is given in dreams

· God came to Abimelech in a dream, Gen. 20:3.

· he dreamed, and behold a ladder … reached to heaven, Gen. 28:12.

· God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream, Gen. 31:24.

· Joseph dreamed a dream, Gen. 37:5.

· this dreamer cometh, Gen. 37:19.

· We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter, Gen. 40:8.

· Pharaoh dreamed … he stood by the river, Gen. 41:1.

· Joseph remembered the dreams which he dreamed, Gen. 42:9.

· Lord … will speak unto him in a dream, Num. 12:6.

· If there arise … a dreamer of dreams, Deut. 13:1.

· man that told a dream unto his fellow, Judg. 7:13.

· Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, 1 Sam. 28:6.

· Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream, 1 Kgs. 3:5.

· against them that prophesy false dreams, Jer. 23:32.

· neither hearken to your dreams, Jer. 29:8.

· Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, Dan. 2:1.

· Thy dream … are these, Dan. 2:28.

· Daniel had a dream, Dan. 7:1.

· old men shall dream dreams, Joel 2:28 (Acts 2:17).

· diviners … have told false dreams, Zech. 10:2.

· Lord appeared unto him in a dream, Matt. 1:20.

· warned … in a dream that they should not return, Matt. 2:12.

· angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph, Matt. 2:19.

· being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside, Matt. 2:22.

· I have suffered many things … in a dream because of him, Matt. 27:19.

Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife….6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;…16 ¶ And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.

Gen 31: 10 And it came to pass at the time that the cattle conceived, that I lifted up mine eyes, and saw in a dream, and, behold, the rams which leaped upon the cattle were ringstraked, speckled, and grisled. 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred…. 24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

Gen 37: 5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more. 6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed: 7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf. 8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words. 9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Gen 40:5-9 And they dreamed a dream both of them, each man his dream in one night, each man according to the interpretation of his dream, the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, which were bound in the prison.

Gen 42:8-9 8 And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him. 9 And Joseph remembered the dreams which he dreamed of them, and said unto them, Ye are spies; to see the nakedness of the land ye are come.

Isaiah 29: 8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.

Job 33:15-17 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; 16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Judges 7:13 And when Gideon was come, behold, there was a man that told a dream unto his fellow, and said, Behold, I dreamed a dream, and, lo, a cake of barley bread tumbled into the host of Midian, and came unto a tent, and smote it that it fell, and overturned it, that the tent lay along…15 ¶ And it was so, when Gideon heard the telling of the dream, and the interpretation thereof, that he worshipped, and returned into the host of Israel, and said, Arise; for the Lord hath delivered into your hand the host of Midian.

POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS

Clear · Jun 11, 2019

POST THREE OF THREE

Matt 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. ..20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. …

Matt 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. 13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child’s life. 21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judæa in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Matt 27: 17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? 18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. 19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Numb 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

1 Chronicles 3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,…4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the Lord, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:

1 Sam 3: 9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.11 And the Lord said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.12 In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end.13 For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not.14 And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.15 ¶ And Samuel lay until the morning, and opened the doors of the house of the Lord. And Samuel feared to shew Eli the vision.

Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

Acts 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Daniel 2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.

Gen 46: 2 And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I. 3 And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:

Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; 16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

Job 4:12 Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,

I did not look these up in any particular order, but the point remains that Both Jews and Christians believed sleep was a time of special communication and NOT a time of “nothingess” like the model of “sleep death” that the Jehovah Witness movement of the 1800s adopted.

In any case forum members and Deeje, I honestly hope your spiritual journeys are good.

Clear

Hockeycowboy · Jun 11, 2019

Deeje said:
Interruption welcome.

When were the Mishna, Talmud and Midrash written?

As a bit of background please consider.....
The Mishna is compilation of Jewish oral law and tradition that expands on and interprets God’s written Law, especially that given to Moses. It was compiled and put into written form by the early third century C.E.
The Mishnah later became the foundation of the Talmud which is a compilation of traditional oral law, containing Jewish civil and religious regulation that consists of two main parts—the Mishnah, a law code, and the Gemara, a commentary on that code.

There are two Talmuds—the Palestinian (c. 400 C.E.) and the Babylonian (c. 600 C.E.). The latter is more extensive and is regarded as the pillar of rabbinic law. Considered by the Jews to be a complement to the Hebrew Scriptures, the Talmud sets out an exhaustive code of conduct that addresses every aspect of life. By the time of the Middle Ages, many Jews revered the Talmud more than the Scriptures.

While claiming to complement the Scriptures, the Mishnah actually does the opposite—in effect, burying God’s laws and principles under a mountain of man-made rules and traditions. (Mark 7:1; 13)

The Mishnah has historical value for Bible students because it provides background information on certain passages of Scripture and explains ancient Jewish customs and attitudes toward God’s name.

During a subsequent period of relative peace with Rome, Judah Ha-Nasi, the leading rabbi of the late second and early third centuries C.E., gathered numerous scholars and edited vast amounts of oral tradition into an organized system made up of six Orders, each subdivided into smaller tractates—63 in all. This work became known as the Mishnah.

Ephraim Urbach, an authority on the oral law, wrote: “The Mishnah . . . was granted approval and authority such as had never been granted to any book except the Torah itself.”

Considering the time period of their compilation and writing, we can see that these were the writings of a religious system that was already corrupt when Jesus began his ministry. How much trust can you have in them when Jesus had nothing good to say about the teachings of this apostate system. You think they have changed? Jesus knew that they were incorrigible. (Matthew 23:37-39)

These writings are a poor substitute for God's word, standing alone, speaking for itself, without their spin.

Talmud - Wikipedia

Nice highlighting of the dates! I never knew that some of these writings were so young, in the C.E.'s! They certainly don't represent Scriptural thought!

(You can see how an "immediate afterlife" would get it's start, be promoted, w/ child sacrifice mentioned at Jeremiah 7:31...."Your child really isnt dead, he's with God!" Those apostate religious leaders of the Israelites probably even told the sacrificers, "Your baby's with Yahweh!"

A belief like that would give a faster rise / impetus to such abominable actions.

Sick!

Deeje · Jun 11, 2019

Clear said:
I do apologize for insinuating that you consciously tried to deceive on a historical point. That was out of line and I am sorry. I do NOT think you conscious tried to lie to anyone. I think you probably were simply applying your own theology onto ancient Jews and did not realize that it was in error. I did look through your posts and tried to find some relevant data showing any coherent evidence from your post that was of more historical value than that given to us by the Jews themselves. I could not find anyone and I feel very, very comfortable in allowing readers to come to their own decisions as to whether they believe the Jews believed in an afterlilfe as they said they did, or not.

Kind of a back handed apology but even in emotive topics, there is no need to get personally nasty. I am going to assume that you are coming from a Mormon perspective (since you do not deny it) and will keep in mind that your whole belief system depends on this one particular doctrine being true. Relying on apostate Jewish sources to support your belief instead of the Bible to furnish the truth about this issue, to me is telling.

Clear said:
I also have some familiarity with scriptures, but the problem for accurate history is that "naked scripture" (i.e. scripture without authentic historical context) is often not clear, thus we have many competing christianities with competing systems of interpretation and competing theologies.

"Naked scripture", if you are a genuine Bible student, explains itself. You can use scripture to explain scripture, or you can resort to the ideas and traditions of flawed humans to furnish your "truth". I rely on the Bible, but apparently it doesn't work for what you wish to believe, so you have to go outside of it to prop up what is not a Bible truth. Your sources are those Jesus himself rejected. You can deny that if it suits you, but that doesn't alter the facts.

Clear said:
The various Christian movement with their various differing beliefs all layer a specific context and interpretation ONTO the text to support their worldviews. The problem in debates is often not the specific text, but rather WHOSE context and WHOSE interpretation does one use in telling us what a scripture means? My point is that the earliest Christians such as those the apostles taught and their earliest converts together with THEIR interpretations and base beliefs, have a higher likelihood of representing early and authentic Christian doctrine than do the interpretations developed by Christian movements of almost 2000 years later.

And this was what was foretold by Jesus and the apostles. A counterfeit form of "Christianity" sown by the devil, would grow like weeds in the same "field" as the genuine Christianity that was sown by Jesus and his apostles. (Matthew 13:34-43)

Paul warned that when the apostles died, their 'restraining' influence would be gone. (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7) The last apostle John, died at the end of the first century and we see in history the steady decline in the Christian faith from that time onwards, mirroring the same kind of decline in ancient Judaism.

Man-made traditions began to infiltrate and weaken any Christian resolve to remain true to Christ's teachings. Out of that sad and sorry state, came Roman Catholicism....a complete departure from anything taught by Jesus and the apostles. It was a fusion of pagan Roman sun worship and weak Christianity.

Today's "Christianity" has that apostate religion as its foundation. It does not resemble anything that Christ taught.

Clear said:
The value of the early Christian diaries, especially of the earliest converts is that they describe what the apostles and those the apostles had sent out were teaching and what such things meant TO THEM.

The corruption set in very early. Remember that satan is its author and promoter. He already had all other religious systems under his control.....but only at "the time of the end" would God cleanse and refine his Christian worshippers.
4 “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” (Daniel 12:4) Only at this time would God provide the 'knowledge' needed to separate his true worshippers from the rabble of false Christianity. (Revelation 18:4)

He went on to say....
“Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:9-10)

Only the wicked would fail to see the need to cleanse and refine their worship. If there was no need to clean up God's worship at that time, then Daniel's words have no real meaning.

Jesus also foretold that he would appoint a "faithful slave" to feed his household their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) This was part of Jesus' prophesy on the conclusion of the present system of things, so this appointment is confined to "the time of the end".....the time we are living in right now. This time is a judgment period where "the good news of the Kingdom" would be preached "in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before "the end" would come. (Matthew 24:14) it is the only "witness" that people will get. The separation of the 'wheat from the weeds' and the 'sheep from the goats' takes place in this period.....we believe that it is coming to an end, when God says it needs to happen. We have world conditions to indicate that it will be soon. How bad do things need to get on a global scale?

Clear said:
If we are to use scriptures that mentions sleep (as your use in Post #141), do we apply the relatively modern Jehovahs Witness meaning and interpretation to the ancient text or do we use the ancient Jewish and Christian meaning and interpretation to the ancient text (which was, after all, written in their time period)? The modern christians do not have nor apply the same meaning as did the ancient Christians nor the ancient Jews.

We have the choice of accepting old apostate thinking....or we can see the value of what the Bible says about accepting a cleansing of our worship. The Bible helps us to make those very important decisions....our lives actually depend on our doing so.

Clear said:
Sleep is NOT a time of complete “inaction”, but merely the consciousness is weakened and control of conscious faculties is lost (we do not speak nor act with regard to mortal life and lifes priorities in a conscious manner – thus sleep is referred to as an exile / galut of sorts). During sleep, it is a time of rejuvenation and refreshment of the spirit/soul and body).

This is nonsense to me. You don't have to explain what the Bible clearly says.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6; 10 tells us that death in Sheol means no consciousnes.....no planning, no work and no activity for the dead.

Psalm 146:4 says the same thing....the dead do not think.

Psalm 115:17 says that the grave is a place of silence. The dead do not praise God.

In order to make these verses say something other that what they actually say, we see a creative slant put on them to indicate that their meaning is the opposite of what they are saying. Who do we believe? God or the apostate Jews? The Bible or corrupt Christianity?

Clear said:
During sleep, Jewish tradition reflect the concept that a portion of the soul leaves the body. This is reflected in the morning Jewish prayer : I offer thanks before you, living and eternal King, for You have mercifully restored my soul within me; Your faithfulness is great” Importantly, when the soul is free of the body, it will recieve revelations that do not happen when a person is awake. In the Mishna, at Sinai, the Jews slept early and well (and God helped by keeping the insects from biting). This was the intention of the Jews in going to sleep. They were hoping that through sleep they would be able to reach greater level of holiness in preparation for greater revelation.

Again you are resorting to Jewish tradition.....why trust those whom Jesus said were 'making the word of God invalid because of their traditions'. (Matthew 15:1-9)

Clear said:
The ancient Jewish sages taught that it is only the physical bodies that are unconscious; the spirit part of us remains awake and allows God to communicate with our hearts and mind while we sleep. Song of Solomon 5:2 “I sleep but my heart is awake, it is the voice of my beloved that knocks.” Intergral to this poem is the concept that the mortal body sleeps, but the spirit/soul is awake and is able to listen to the voice of the beloved in the poem of multiple meanings.

Apostate sources again.....quoting passages that speak about literal sleep is meaningless. The dead do not dream....the dead do not think.....there is no conscious existence for those in the grave. We do not live before our birth and we do not live after our death.....there is no one who is alive in the spirit realm but those whom God created to live there....angels. None of which are given a choice to become humans.

When rebel angels materialised human form in Noah's day and produced children who were responsible for the violence and immorality at that time, we saw God's response. He wiped out all those human freaks and those who were influenced by them to adopt their violent and immoral ways. He forced their errant fathers back to the spirit realm where he dealt with them by removing any way for them to materialise again.

Jesus said that the world would be violent and immoral like that again, though the demons would not be visible at this time, their influence has never changed. (Matthew 24:37-39) Again this situation would exist at "the time of the end".

Those who look to God's word to provide their beliefs need to know what it teaches.

Clear · Jun 11, 2019

1( REGARDING "HISTORICAL WRITING" AND WHO WILL READ IT IN THE FUTURE
Deeje asked : “What does it matter what other forum members think?” Post #141

It may sound obvious, but since we are writing each other in a public forum, AND the forum is “historical” to the extent that individuals will continue reading these forums for some time, then it IS quite important to me that individuals who read our entries understand them and, hopefully, gain insights to them that are helpful to those individuals both now and in the future. (I can’t help but think historically…)

Secondly, I do not expect that I am going to change your mind regarding early theology and history. I DO think there are individuals who are seeking good and accurate information regarding what early Christianity was like, what their doctrines and worldviews were like and how the earliest Christianity was different than the multitude of later competing Christian movements.

2( REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT ALL ANCIENT WRITING THAT DISAGREES WITH MODERN JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY IS FROM APOSTATES

Apostate sources again.....quoting passages that speak about literal sleep is meaningless. The dead do not dream....the dead do not think.....there is no conscious existence for those in the grave
While ancient Christianity is heretical to Jehovahs Witnesses, Jehovah witness religion is heretical to Ancient Christians

The claim to apostasy that you keep using is a two way street. While the early Jews and Christianity that agreed with them on the subject of spirits seem apostate to you, YOUR religion which was created in the 1800s would be viewed by the early christians as apostate since your religion is NOT the same as theirs. The early Christians who lived in the first centuries and nearer the days of the Apostles had just as much of a right to their beliefs and interpretations as you do to your that your religion created and adopted.

For example : The early Christians would be aghast that Jehovah Witnesses created an inaccurate paraphrase of their Old and New Testament texts in order to have a text more friendly to their new theoloy. To the Christians, their texts were sacred. To the early Christians (And to much of modern christianity as well), the Jehovahs Witnesses are part OF apostasy from true early Christian religion.

While I think that Jehovahs Witness theology is wonderfully "systemized", yet this IS one of the characteristics of apostate religion that would arise in a day when individuals “… being tossed and carried about by every wind of the teaching in the sleight of men, in [their] craftiness in the systematizing of error; “ Eph IV:14 “…εν τη κυβεια των ανθρωπων, εν πανουργια προς την μεθοδειαν της πλανης,”

While the references I pointed out are from a Christianity that is much more ancient and much more authentic than the 200 year old Jehovahs Witness system of interpretation of scriptures. It is the ancients who describe your theology as apostate. The New and modern Jehovahs Witness religion abandoned the earlier and more authentic beliefs and, instead of recognizing themselves as apostates, now charge the earlier, more authentic Christianity with apostasy. It is an inversion of values.

I think Sooda was being fair when he pointed out that the Jehovahs Witnesses have made enough mistakes regarding their prophecies and interpretations about the end of the system of things being 1914, that they would admit that they are wrong about things.

If we discuss the spirit, the reason I want you to use the New World Translation, which is the New Bible the Jehovahs Witnesses produced, is so that we can also discuss the changes made to the text. IF the Jehovahs witnesses valued the scriptural text MORE than their doctrines, then they would have left the sacred text alone instead of making changes that are inaccurate and unwarranted in scripture. It is these sorts of bothersome issues with text that make it seem less credible to have Jehovahs Witnesses claim something "doesn't represent Scriptural thought" when they themselves change scripture for the benefit of their theology.

3( ARE YOU THEORIZING THAT ONLY CHRISTIAN HERETICS WROTE? IF NOT, WHERE IS THE EARLY TEXT SUPPORTING JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY?
IF you theorize that ALL early Judeo-Christian theology is heretical, even those individuals taught by the apostles, then where is your supporting historical data for this theory?
IF you theorize that ONLY Christian heretics wrote their heretical texts, then why did not the orthodox Christians write any texts?
IF the orthodox wrote texts that agree with your theology on this subject, then why have they not been discovered? Why ONLY heretical texts discovered?
IF the orthodox wrote, and they HAVE been discovered, and they DO agree with you, then where are they?

So please, don't tell me that the early Christians are all apostates or heretics and your religion is not. Are you telling us that NONE of the early Christians BESIDES heretics wrote their testimony regarding their doctrines and regarding Jesus as the savior? IF non-apostate christians wrote then where is their writing that supports YOUR religion?

The elephant in the room is that your religion with it's interpretations is not historical. It is systemitized the use of scriptures (As the apostle Paul Told us would happen) it gathers some followers who are dedicated, but they cannot find their place in any authentic historical Christian space. Instead, they MUST remain outside of authentic Historical Christianity because their interpretation (systemization) of the sacred texts is not to be found to any significant degree inside any historical Christian textual records.

Deeje, I want you to know that I am sorry and do apologize for attributing your deceptive view of history to an intent to deceive. I realize that we live in two different worlds and some things are so simple and obvious historically, that I do not understand why other do not see it. I move and breath in a world of people who are familiar with early Judeo-Christian thought and though there are disagreements, the disagreements take place in a milieu of data exchange, rather than a disparagement of early Judeo-Christian texts.

I honestly do not mind discussing the early Christian view of spirits with you, but you must understand that the earliest and most authentic Christian interpretations would view Jehovah Witness interpretations as part of an apostasy and would view this sort of doctrine with as much distaste as you view early Christianity. Your religion and theirs is NOT the same.

In any case, I hope your journey is good.

Clear

Hockeycowboy said:
Nice highlighting of the dates! I never knew that some of these writings were so young, in the C.E.'s! They certainly don't represent Scriptural thought!

(You can see how an "immediate afterlife" would get it's start, be promoted, w/ child sacrifice mentioned at Jeremiah 7:31...."Your child really isnt dead, he's with God!" Those apostate religious leaders of the Israelites probably even told the sacrificers, "Your baby's with Yahweh!"

A belief like that would give a faster rise / impetus to such abominable actions.

Sick!

Hi @HockeyCowboy.

4) REGARDING EARLY TEXTS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE VARIOUS MODERN SCRIPTURAL CANONS
While I very much agree with Deejes’ dates regarding when the Jews committed the oral law to text, the oral traditions existed much earlier. For example, Though Jewish Enoch was not committed to text until perhaps 300 B.C. (BEFORE Christ), the Jews and Christians were reading it and it reflects Judeo-Christian thought long before the New Testament was written.

I do not expect you to be aware of the early texts and their relationship to biblical themes, but when you are reading the New Testament, you are reading quotes from these texts that you say don’t represent “scriptural thought”.

For example, When New Testament Jude (First to Second century A.D. AFTER CHRIST) writes, "...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (jude 1:14 NIV)

The writer of Jude is quoting 1 Enoch 2:1 (approx. 3rd century BEFORE CHRIST. – 300-400 years earlier ) “Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.”

When you read the New Testament, you are often reading quotes and references to these earlier texts, you just never knew it. The assumption that these texts have no relationship to the New Testament text is, historically, naïve.

There are BOOKS dedicated to the cross-referencing of the Jewish and Christian (and Islamic) literature to New Testament quotes. The world of historical religion is different than your world. It is only natural that some of the early themes in Christianity will seem strange to you since your religion is NOT the same as ancient Christianity. Remember, Jehovahs witness as a movement and many of their interpretations are no older than the 18th century while early Christian themes go back thousands of years.

5) REGARDING HOCKEY COWBOYS THEORY THAT AN "IMMEDIATE AFTERLIFE" STARTED WITH CHILD SACRIFICE

Hockey Cowboy claimed : "You can see how an "immediate afterlife" would get it's start, be promoted, w/ child sacrifice..."

I have to point out that this is an incredibly strange theory that I've never seen in ANY literature. I would think I am more familiar with more of the ancient literature than most people and I have NEVER heard of this theory. How do Jehovahs Witnesses support this theory?

In any case, I wish you good journey

Clear
ειδρτζφιω

Deeje · Jun 11, 2019

Clear said:
The claim to apostasy that you keep using is a two way street. While the early Jews and Christianity that agreed with them on the subject of spirits seem apostate to you, YOUR religion which was created in the 1800s would be viewed by the early christians as apostate since your religion is NOT the same as theirs. The early Christians who lived in the first centuries and nearer the days of the Apostles had just as much of a right to their beliefs and interpretations as you do to your that your religion created and adopted.

When was your religion created? Just curious since you seem very reluctant to identify it.

The early Christians were going to lose the truth that Jesus imparted to them. Even when the apostles were still alive, apostates were snapping at their heels, trying to promote their own ideas. Once the restraining influence of the apostles was removed, the weeds did what weeds do best. Jesus foretold that this would happen and yet the churches behave as if he never said it and that they could never be victims of it. Big mistake. You can't fix what you don't acknowledge.....or what you view as not broken.

Clear said:
For example : The early Christians would be aghast that Jehovah Witnesses created an inaccurate paraphrase of their Old and New Testament texts in order to have a text more friendly to their new theoloy. To the Christians, their texts were sacred. To the early Christians (And to much of modern christianity as well), the Jehovahs Witnesses are part OF apostasy from true early Christian religion.

This made me laugh....you are no doubt speaking of the KJV Bible...? Since when was the KJV ever sacred to original Christians? It wasn't produced till 1611.....the first Christians spoke Greek....their text was written in Koine Greek, the common language of the day. It was also the reason for the Septuagint....provided for Greek speaking Jews in the third century BCE. The KJV was a translation, and not a very accurate one at that. Happy to make comparisons if you like.

Clear said:
While the references I pointed out are from a Christianity that is much more ancient and much more authentic than the 200 year old Jehovahs Witness system of interpretation of scriptures. It is the ancients who describe your theology as apostate. The New and modern Jehovahs Witness religion abandoned the earlier and more authentic beliefs and, instead of recognizing themselves as apostates, now charge the earlier, more authentic Christianity with apostasy. It is an inversion of values.

The ancient apostates have no influence on my beliefs....but they obviously support what you want to believe. That is your choice...but I don't think you understand the reason why you feel so challenged on this one belief. If this one is not true...then what else is false in modern Christian doctrine? Never mind what might be false among those who have abandoned God's word for an unauthorized substitute.

Having investigated Mormon beliefs, I can't see how you could possibly challenge the beliefs of JW's. You guys believe some pretty whacky stuff...none of it supported by the accepted word of God...you actually had to create your own scripture to back up those beliefs. Pot calling the kettle black...much?
Do you want to do an investigation into your beliefs and where they come from? Are you game?

Clear said:
If we discuss the spirit, the reason I want you to use the New World Translation, which is the New Bible the Jehovahs Witnesses produced, is so that we can also discuss the changes made to the text. IF the Jehovahs witnesses valued the scriptural text MORE than their doctrines, then they would have left the sacred text alone instead of making changes that are inaccurate and unwarranted in scripture. It is these sorts of bothersome issues with text that make it seem less credible to have Jehovahs Witnesses claim something "doesn't represent Scriptural thought" when they themselves change scripture for the benefit of their theology.

We value the truth. That is why we produced the NWT. It is the most accurate translation available because of the research that went into its renderings. All you need is a good concordance to ascertain the original meanings of the words used in the Bible.

Please provide examples of where we should "have left the sacred text alone instead of making changes that are inaccurate and unwarranted in scripture". Let's examine them....please....

Clear said:
IF you theorize that ALL early Judeo-Christian theology is heretical, even those individuals taught by the apostles, then where is your supporting historical data for this theory?

Obviously the Hebrew canon of scripture is authentic. Jesus and his apostles taught from those scriptures. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) Its the interpretation put on those sacred texts by an apostate religious system that is the problem. Like Christendom, Jews of today believe what they have been taught....but if their teachers have got it wrong from centuries of believing the same falsehoods, who would know except those who bothered to do their research?
I believe that God moves individuals who care about the truth to check these things out for themselves. He will guide and direct their search. He will provide the knowledge just as he promised.

Clear said:
IF you theorize that ONLY Christian heretics wrote their heretical texts, then why did not the orthodox Christians write any texts?
IF the orthodox wrote texts that agree with your theology on this subject, then why have they not been discovered? Why ONLY heretical texts discovered?
IF the orthodox wrote, and they HAVE been discovered, and they DO agree with you, then where are they?

All things written after the Bible canon was closed, have no place in God's word. It is HIS Bible...it is not the product of men. If those writing were included in the sacred scriptures, then they would be part of God's instructions....but they disagree with the content of the Bible that God provided. ...so who do you believe?

I know who I believe.

Clear said:
So please, don't tell me that the early Christians are all apostates or heretics and your religion is not. Are you telling us that NONE of the early Christians BESIDES heretics wrote their testimony regarding their doctrines and regarding Jesus as the savior? IF non-apostate christians wrote then where is their writing that supports YOUR religion?

The whole church system became apostate just like the Jews did before them. The Christians had to come out of that corrupt system in order for their worship to become acceptable to God.....and they have to do it again now.

Clear said:
Deeje, I want you to know that I am sorry and do apologize for attributing your deceptive view of history to an intent to deceive. I realize that we live in two different worlds and some things are so simple and obvious historically, that I do not understand why other do not see it. I move and breath in a world of people who are familiar with early Judeo-Christian thought and though there are disagreements, the disagreements take place in a milieu of data exchange, rather than a disparagement of early Judeo-Christian texts.

I have provided scripture as my only source of information. Why do we need more? If you know what the Bible teaches as a whole, (it is one story from Genesis to Revelation) then you cannot make mistakes in interpretation because the Bible is consistent and backs up its teaching with other scripture, as you would expect of a work inspired by God. You just have to become a student of the Bible rather than a student of religion.

I honestly do not mind discussing the early Christian view of spirits with you, but you must understand that the earliest and most authentic Christian interpretations would view Jehovah Witness interpretations as part of an apostasy and would view this sort of doctrine with as much distaste as you view early Christianity. Your religion and theirs is NOT the same.

Interpretation placed on scripture, if it isn't backed up by other scripture, is useless as a source of support for any belief.
Paul wrote....
"Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright. 16 But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. . . .and they are subverting the faith of some. 19 Despite that, the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and, “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.” (2 Timothy 2:15-19)

You are free to believe as you wish...but the truth is not altered by beliefs. God knows those who belong to him..... it is we who must alter our beliefs to accommodate the truth...even an inconvenient one.

Hockeycowboy · Jun 11, 2019

Clear said:
5) REGARDING HOCKEY COWBOYS THEORY THAT AN "IMMEDIATE AFTERLIFE" STARTED WITH CHILD SACRIFICE

Hockey Cowboy claimed : "You can see how an "immediate afterlife" would get it's start, be promoted, w/ child sacrifice..."

I have to point out that this is an incredibly strange theory that I've never seen in ANY literature. I would think I am more familiar with more of the ancient literature than most people and I have NEVER heard of this theory. How do Jehovahs Witnesses support this theory?

No. Maybe I wasn't clear. I was just saying that believing a sacrificed baby is living somewhere else ("with God"), would allow such heinous actions to be more easily accepted, and carried out.

So I don't doubt that many Israelites apostatized and began believing in an immediate afterlife; it would make it easier for them to sacrifice their children.

That's all I was implying.

They totally ignored -- forgot?? -- what Moses quoted Yahweh / Jehovah as telling Adam after he sinned, " You are going to return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you will return." -- Genesis 3:19. (God was talking to Adam, not his body!)

Think... when God told A&E that disobedience would bring death, God didn't explain what death was. Why not? Because A & E knew what death was, from observing the animals dying.

Which brings me to Ecclesiastes 3 19,20.

No difference in death condition of animals or humans. Adam & Eve knew that.

If there were more to death, ie., life in another realm, then Jehovah wasn't being honest with them.

Take care, clear.

Hockeycowboy · Jun 11, 2019

Clear said:
POST TWO OF THREE

However, there are many examples where authentic revelation is given in dreams

· God came to Abimelech in a dream, Gen. 20:3.

· he dreamed, and behold a ladder … reached to heaven, Gen. 28:12.

· God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream, Gen. 31:24.

· Joseph dreamed a dream, Gen. 37:5.

· this dreamer cometh, Gen. 37:19.

· We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter, Gen. 40:8.

· Pharaoh dreamed … he stood by the river, Gen. 41:1.

· Joseph remembered the dreams which he dreamed, Gen. 42:9.

· Lord … will speak unto him in a dream, Num. 12:6.

· If there arise … a dreamer of dreams, Deut. 13:1.

· man that told a dream unto his fellow, Judg. 7:13.

· Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, 1 Sam. 28:6.

· Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream, 1 Kgs. 3:5.

· against them that prophesy false dreams, Jer. 23:32.

· neither hearken to your dreams, Jer. 29:8.

· Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, Dan. 2:1.

· Thy dream … are these, Dan. 2:28.

· Daniel had a dream, Dan. 7:1.

· old men shall dream dreams, Joel 2:28 (Acts 2:17).

· diviners … have told false dreams, Zech. 10:2.

· Lord appeared unto him in a dream, Matt. 1:20.

· warned … in a dream that they should not return, Matt. 2:12.

· angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph, Matt. 2:19.

· being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside, Matt. 2:22.

· I have suffered many things … in a dream because of him, Matt. 27:19.

Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife….6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;…16 ¶ And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.

Gen 31: 10 And it came to pass at the time that the cattle conceived, that I lifted up mine eyes, and saw in a dream, and, behold, the rams which leaped upon the cattle were ringstraked, speckled, and grisled. 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred…. 24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

Gen 37: 5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more. 6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed: 7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf. 8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words. 9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Gen 40:5-9 And they dreamed a dream both of them, each man his dream in one night, each man according to the interpretation of his dream, the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, which were bound in the prison.

Gen 42:8-9 8 And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him. 9 And Joseph remembered the dreams which he dreamed of them, and said unto them, Ye are spies; to see the nakedness of the land ye are come.

Isaiah 29: 8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.

Job 33:15-17 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; 16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Judges 7:13 And when Gideon was come, behold, there was a man that told a dream unto his fellow, and said, Behold, I dreamed a dream, and, lo, a cake of barley bread tumbled into the host of Midian, and came unto a tent, and smote it that it fell, and overturned it, that the tent lay along…15 ¶ And it was so, when Gideon heard the telling of the dream, and the interpretation thereof, that he worshipped, and returned into the host of Israel, and said, Arise; for the Lord hath delivered into your hand the host of Midian.

POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS

These people were alive at the time, not dead.

Hockeycowboy · Jun 11, 2019

Clear said:
1( REGARDING "HISTORICAL WRITING" AND WHO WILL READ IT IN THE FUTURE
Deeje asked : “What does it matter what other forum members think?” Post #141

It may sound obvious, but since we are writing each other in a public forum, AND the forum is “historical” to the extent that individuals will continue reading these forums for some time, then it IS quite important to me that individuals who read our entries understand them and, hopefully, gain insights to them that are helpful to those individuals both now and in the future. (I can’t help but think historically…)

Secondly, I do not expect that I am going to change your mind regarding early theology and history. I DO think there are individuals who are seeking good and accurate information regarding what early Christianity was like, what their doctrines and worldviews were like and how the earliest Christianity was different than the multitude of later competing Christian movements.

2( REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT ALL ANCIENT WRITING THAT DISAGREES WITH MODERN JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY IS FROM APOSTATES

Apostate sources again.....quoting passages that speak about literal sleep is meaningless. The dead do not dream....the dead do not think.....there is no conscious existence for those in the grave
While ancient Christianity is heretical to Jehovahs Witnesses, Jehovah witness religion is heretical to Ancient Christians

The claim to apostasy that you keep using is a two way street. While the early Jews and Christianity that agreed with them on the subject of spirits seem apostate to you, YOUR religion which was created in the 1800s would be viewed by the early christians as apostate since your religion is NOT the same as theirs. The early Christians who lived in the first centuries and nearer the days of the Apostles had just as much of a right to their beliefs and interpretations as you do to your that your religion created and adopted.

For example : The early Christians would be aghast that Jehovah Witnesses created an inaccurate paraphrase of their Old and New Testament texts in order to have a text more friendly to their new theoloy. To the Christians, their texts were sacred. To the early Christians (And to much of modern christianity as well), the Jehovahs Witnesses are part OF apostasy from true early Christian religion.

While I think that Jehovahs Witness theology is wonderfully "systemized", yet this IS one of the characteristics of apostate religion that would arise in a day when individuals “… being tossed and carried about by every wind of the teaching in the sleight of men, in [their] craftiness in the systematizing of error; “ Eph IV:14 “…εν τη κυβεια των ανθρωπων, εν πανουργια προς την μεθοδειαν της πλανης,”

While the references I pointed out are from a Christianity that is much more ancient and much more authentic than the 200 year old Jehovahs Witness system of interpretation of scriptures. It is the ancients who describe your theology as apostate. The New and modern Jehovahs Witness religion abandoned the earlier and more authentic beliefs and, instead of recognizing themselves as apostates, now charge the earlier, more authentic Christianity with apostasy. It is an inversion of values.

I think Sooda was being fair when he pointed out that the Jehovahs Witnesses have made enough mistakes regarding their prophecies and interpretations about the end of the system of things being 1914, that they would admit that they are wrong about things.

If we discuss the spirit, the reason I want you to use the New World Translation, which is the New Bible the Jehovahs Witnesses produced, is so that we can also discuss the changes made to the text. IF the Jehovahs witnesses valued the scriptural text MORE than their doctrines, then they would have left the sacred text alone instead of making changes that are inaccurate and unwarranted in scripture. It is these sorts of bothersome issues with text that make it seem less credible to have Jehovahs Witnesses claim something "doesn't represent Scriptural thought" when they themselves change scripture for the benefit of their theology.

3( ARE YOU THEORIZING THAT ONLY CHRISTIAN HERETICS WROTE? IF NOT, WHERE IS THE EARLY TEXT SUPPORTING JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY?
IF you theorize that ALL early Judeo-Christian theology is heretical, even those individuals taught by the apostles, then where is your supporting historical data for this theory?
IF you theorize that ONLY Christian heretics wrote their heretical texts, then why did not the orthodox Christians write any texts?
IF the orthodox wrote texts that agree with your theology on this subject, then why have they not been discovered? Why ONLY heretical texts discovered?
IF the orthodox wrote, and they HAVE been discovered, and they DO agree with you, then where are they?

So please, don't tell me that the early Christians are all apostates or heretics and your religion is not. Are you telling us that NONE of the early Christians BESIDES heretics wrote their testimony regarding their doctrines and regarding Jesus as the savior? IF non-apostate christians wrote then where is their writing that supports YOUR religion?

The elephant in the room is that your religion with it's interpretations is not historical. It is systemitized the use of scriptures (As the apostle Paul Told us would happen) it gathers some followers who are dedicated, but they cannot find their place in any authentic historical Christian space. Instead, they MUST remain outside of authentic Historical Christianity because their interpretation (systemization) of the sacred texts is not to be found to any significant degree inside any historical Christian textual records.

Deeje, I want you to know that I am sorry and do apologize for attributing your deceptive view of history to an intent to deceive. I realize that we live in two different worlds and some things are so simple and obvious historically, that I do not understand why other do not see it. I move and breath in a world of people who are familiar with early Judeo-Christian thought and though there are disagreements, the disagreements take place in a milieu of data exchange, rather than a disparagement of early Judeo-Christian texts.

I honestly do not mind discussing the early Christian view of spirits with you, but you must understand that the earliest and most authentic Christian interpretations would view Jehovah Witness interpretations as part of an apostasy and would view this sort of doctrine with as much distaste as you view early Christianity. Your religion and theirs is NOT the same.

In any case, I hope your journey is good.

Clear

Hi @HockeyCowboy.

4) REGARDING EARLY TEXTS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE VARIOUS MODERN SCRIPTURAL CANONS
While I very much agree with Deejes’ dates regarding when the Jews committed the oral law to text, the oral traditions existed much earlier. For example, Though Jewish Enoch was not committed to text until perhaps 300 B.C. (BEFORE Christ), the Jews and Christians were reading it and it reflects Judeo-Christian thought long before the New Testament was written.

I do not expect you to be aware of the early texts and their relationship to biblical themes, but when you are reading the New Testament, you are reading quotes from these texts that you say don’t represent “scriptural thought”.

For example, When New Testament Jude (First to Second century A.D. AFTER CHRIST) writes, "...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (jude 1:14 NIV)

The writer of Jude is quoting 1 Enoch 2:1 (approx. 3rd century BEFORE CHRIST. – 300-400 years earlier ) “Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.”

When you read the New Testament, you are often reading quotes and references to these earlier texts, you just never knew it. The assumption that these texts have no relationship to the New Testament text is, historically, naïve.

There are BOOKS dedicated to the cross-referencing of the Jewish and Christian (and Islamic) literature to New Testament quotes. The world of historical religion is different than your world. It is only natural that some of the early themes in Christianity will seem strange to you since your religion is NOT the same as ancient Christianity. Remember, Jehovahs witness as a movement and many of their interpretations are no older than the 18th century while early Christian themes go back thousands of years.

5) REGARDING HOCKEY COWBOYS THEORY THAT AN "IMMEDIATE AFTERLIFE" STARTED WITH CHILD SACRIFICE

Hockey Cowboy claimed : "You can see how an "immediate afterlife" would get it's start, be promoted, w/ child sacrifice..."

I have to point out that this is an incredibly strange theory that I've never seen in ANY literature. I would think I am more familiar with more of the ancient literature than most people and I have NEVER heard of this theory. How do Jehovahs Witnesses support this theory?

In any case, I wish you good journey

Clear
ειδρτζφιω

No, early Christians, as in 1st-century, were right on! Regarding the condition of the dead, the Apostle Paul mentioned many times that the dead -- even brothers he once knew -- were sleeping (in death.)
-- 1 Corinthians 15:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13 etc. --
....which agrees with Jesus' description of Lazarus @ John 11:11-14.

Not to go off on a tangent, but you know how we're to tell which groups have apostatized from Truth? Those who tell their followers, ' Support your respective country during war, and kill your brothers in the opposing countries." 1 John 3:10-15 is enlightening, and reveals most of Christendom as not following Christ.

Thief · Jun 11, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Think... when God told A&E that disobedience would bring death, God didn't explain what death was. Why not? Because A & E knew what death was, from observing the animals dying.

Adam is a CHOSEN son of God
see new testament

Adam knew of dying before the garden event

he likely knew his parents and had friends

and the test was not for obedience
but more to affirm the change in mind and heart of the experiment

would a man choose to know?....even if death could be the consequence

Man has become that creature

Clear · Jun 12, 2019

SCRIPTURE INTERPRETATION DIFFERS BETWEEN RELIGIONS AND INDIVIDUALS
Scripture use is highly personalized in that scriptures can be systematized such that conflicting doctrines can be supported by the same text depending on the interpretation the user applies. We see this ALL the time in the forums.

For example, while HockeyCowboy uses 2 Tim 3:16 and interprets it to mean that only his modern bible is inspired and usable whereas I will use the same scripture to point out that ALL inspired writings and all bibles were usable for teaching, etc.

2 Tim 3:16 says that πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος “All inspired writing” [is] profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness.

In this specific case, an issue is what writing are “inspired”. Eastern Christians nowadays have retained a book of Enoch in their bible the western Christians do not. The eastern bible also has Jubilees and barnabas. The western canon is different. The many varied bibles differ both in location and in time periods. Thus bible books that Deeje and HockeyCowboy feel are heretical, are IN the eastern bible nowadays. Are their bibles therefore heretical?

Is New Testament Jude inspired or not?
While I think New Testament Jude 14-16, IS inspired, still, it quotes from texts the Jehovahs Witnesses say are heretical (e.g. Enoch). Lawrence found more than 125 similar references to Enoch in the new Testament. Do we still use Jude and the other New Testament books due to this "contamination" or not?

Were such books “inspired” since New Testament writers use and quote from them or do we stop using any New Testament book that has such “heretical” writings in it?

The bible text itself becomes contaminated by our personal worldviews :

When the writer of Ephesian describes the type of abusive use of scriptures, the writer indicates the abuse of systematic interpretation. This is common (and probably unavoidable since we all have bias)

For example, Deeje says “Psalm 146:4 says the same thing....the dead do not think.”

However, this scripture says no such thing.
Psalms 146:4 When their spirit departs, they return to his earth; in that day his plans (διαλογισμοι αυτο - lxx) perish.

Since Jehovahs witness theology no longer has the theology of a “spirit” that departs the body, then this part of the scripture is left out of his quote. Conversely, he adds the concept in this quote that the dead “do not think” while the scripture itself simply tells us “his plans perish”. (fail). When Deeje leaves out part that should be there and when he adds TO the scripture that which should not be there, this changes (contaminates) the scripture. Both Deuteronomy and Revelations tell us we should not do this
Deut 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
Revelations 22:18-19 "...If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life..."

This sort of adding and taking away is not good. We are given a redacted and paraphrased form of the actual scripture, that is NOT representative of scripture, but of Jehovahs Witness interpretation.

Someone without any pre-conceptions may read the phrase “When their spirit departs” as meaning “their spirit departs or leaves”, and the persons dead body returns to the earth, and thus all future plans made by the person will no longer be accomplished by that person after they are dead.

Having demonstrated this, I must say that this principle of changing things in subtle ways such that it creates new doctrines to support a new system of religion is, itself, apostasy. ALL of us tend to do this because we ALL make mistakes and we ALL have biases. To claim that we have things “right” because “we follow the bible” is naïve and self delusional. We simply make mistakes.

It’s not just that I notice “spins” placed on quotes in this thread, but I mentioned that I did not like some of the changes in the Jehovahs Witness creation of a paraphrase of the Bible and calling it a “translation’ while changing some of the text. For example, the text Deeje "quotes" as coming from the New Testament is “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.” (2 Timothy 2:15-19)

The actual greek does NOT say this.

Instead it SAYS, "...αποστητω απο αδιδιασ πασ ο ονομαζνω το ονομα κυριου". The "name of the LORD" is the actual greek text and, I might point out that there are NO GN-4 variants or manuscripts of this text in existence that say what Deeje quotes this scripture as saying. NONE. NONE of them insert the word "jehovah" in the place of "κυριου".

While the justification given by Jehovahs Witnesses' for changing the text might be that it is a quote of an old Testament Text that the Jehovah Witnesses THINKS should say "JEHOVAH". Still, it DOESN'T say what they want.. This is another example of subtle changes to a quote or a text that is slipped into a discussion, which, if the reader is not familiar with the authentic text, they may not notice the exchange of authentic for the bogus text. To claim "We follow the bible" is much less credible when these sorts of things are taking place.

Also, the Jehovahs Witness justification example I gave is doesn't take into account the historical principle that there may have been a VERY GOOD reason for the New Testament writer to use the word "LORD" instead of JEHOVAH. IF the original writer was inspired by God to write "Lord", then what would be the justification to change inspiration other than that it better supports a theological claim? These sorts of subtle changes to the NEW TESTAMENT text in order to support a claim are concerning.

Just as Deeje added and subtracted to Psalms 146:4, in subtle changes to scripture, and offered a quote of 2 Tim 2:15-19 that doesn't exist, I have felt that these sorts of "screwing with the text itself" is NOT a good thing and it creates and supports a theology that the original text did not contain. This is the sort of systematization of errors and apostasy that Ephesians referred to. The net result is the principle underlying the creation of another religious movement that is an apostasy from the original (despite the claim to be "bible based")

Deeje responded : “We value the truth. That is why we produced the NWT. It is the most accurate translation available because of the research that went into its renderings. All you need is a good concordance to ascertain the original meanings of the words used in the Bible. Please provide examples of where we should "have left the sacred text alone instead of making changes that are inaccurate and unwarranted in scripture". Let's examine them....please....”

I am at work, but will get out my New World Translation and give some examples of the origin of the NW Translation and it's text that is so bothersome and worrisome.

Clear
ειδρσενεω

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

sooda said:
Wasn't Isaiah 35 talking about the return from the Babylonian exile?

Often in Scripture, I find things have both a minor and a MAJOR fulfillment.
The first 7 verses is about Earth becoming a literal paradisical garden as Eden was.
The 8th verse is about a ' highway of holiness ' and that is a spiritual highway.
Those people on it would be like the humble or 'sheep-like' people of the coming time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Verse 9 is Not about a literal lion, but about haughty 'lion-like' people will Not be there - Psalms 37:9-11.
So, Isaiah 35th chapter has a greater fulfillment taking place under Christ's coming 1,000-year reign over Earth.
Notice how ' healing ' is connected with Isaiah and Revelation 22:2's 'healing' for earth's nations (plural).
And as Isaiah 33:24 wrote the time is coming when No one will say, " I am sick...."
Not sick because even 'enemy death' will be No more on Earth - Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26.

sooda · Jun 12, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
Often in Scripture, I find things have both a minor and a MAJOR fulfillment.
The first 7 verses is about Earth becoming a literal paradisical garden as Eden was.
The 8th verse is about a ' highway of holiness ' and that is a spiritual highway.
Those people on it would be like the humble or 'sheep-like' people of the coming time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Verse 9 is Not about a literal lion, but about haughty 'lion-like' people will Not be there - Psalms 37:9-11.
So, Isaiah 35th chapter has a greater fulfillment taking place under Christ's coming 1,000-year reign over Earth.
Notice how ' healing ' is connected with Isaiah and Revelation 22:2's 'healing' for earth's nations (plural).
And as Isaiah 33:24 wrote the time is coming when No one will say, " I am sick...."
Not sick because even 'enemy death' will be No more on Earth - Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26.

You must believe its all in the future.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

Thief said:
Adam is a CHOSEN son of God
see new testament
Adam knew of dying before the garden event
he likely knew his parents and had friends.....

I can agree that Adam was a chosen son as per Luke 3:38.
Adam was formed in the garden and Adam also knew about dying before breaking God's Law.
I can't figure out how Adam knew his parents since Adam was the first human formed.
Before God breathed the breath of life into lifeless Adam, then Adam was Not alive before he started to breathe.
So, Adam did Not have parents but God was his ' life giver ' (Heavenly Father )

URAVIP2ME · Jun 12, 2019

sooda said:
You must believe its all in the future.

A paradisical Earth is in the future. 'Healing ' will be international for ALL nations (Not just one) - Rev. 22:2
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
'Come' indicates the future and Not here yet.
Come and bring the blessing benefits of Revelation 22:2 to Earth for the healing of earth's nations (nations with an s )
Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing on Earth when No one will say, " I am sick..."
- Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 25:8; Genesis 12:3; Genesis 18:18 Genesis 22:18.

sooda · Jun 12, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
A paradisical Earth is in the future. 'Healing ' will be international for ALL nations (Not just one) - Rev. 22:2
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
'Come' indicates the future and Not here yet.
Come and bring the blessing benefits of Revelation 22:2 to Earth for the healing of earth's nations (nations with an s )
Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing on Earth when No one will say, " I am sick..."
- Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 25:8; Genesis 12:3; Genesis 18:18 Genesis 22:18.

Not everything written in Isaiah is about Jesus.

I think Revelation was written to the people of the 7 churches in the first century.

Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

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