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Who will get to heaven?

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
and the Carpenter said....
This day you walk with Me in paradise

Some Thief wanted to be remembered
Are you really sure "paradise" means Heaven. Adam and Eve were in paradise and they were on earth. I am talkins about a verse that actually uses the word "heaven" not some other description. It is not as easy as it sounds.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Are you really sure "paradise" means Heaven. Adam and Eve were in paradise and they were on earth. I am talkins about a verse that actually uses the word "heaven" not some other description. It is not as easy as it sounds.
Allegedly, they were in a mortal paradise. While the story indicates they would have lived forever, modern science says the Sun would swell into a Red Giant in five billion years and fry Eden into cinders.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Are you really sure "paradise" means Heaven. Adam and Eve were in paradise and they were on earth. I am talkins about a verse that actually uses the word "heaven" not some other description. It is not as easy as it sounds.
Adam and Eve walked in a garden
a place that proved to be a petri dish

it served it's purpose and was then dismantled

to them.....losing ideal living conditions would be losing paradise

but flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
and the Carpenter said....
This day you walk with Me in paradise

Some Thief wanted to be remembered
And yet Jesus did NOT go to heaven that day because some time later He told his followers that He had Not yet ascended to the Father. I am still looking for that one verse that says people go to heaven when they die and uses the word "heaven". Can you find it?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Adam and Eve walked in a garden
a place that proved to be a petri dish

it served it's purpose and was then dismantled

to them.....losing ideal living conditions would be losing paradise

but flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God
All of this may be true but does not answer the question.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
And yet Jesus did NOT go to heaven that day because some time later He told his followers that He had Not yet ascended to the Father. I am still looking for that one verse that says people go to heaven when they die and uses the word "heaven". Can you find it?
so your discussion is more word play than substance

well....

we end up alongside others that think and feel as we do
How else to be happy?
How else to be fair?

going to paradise ?....are you?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
so your discussion is more word play than substance

well....

we end up alongside others that think and feel as we do
How else to be happy?
How else to be fair?

going to paradise ?....are you?
No, not wordplay. If people go to heaven there should be at least a few verses that say this. I see you could not find any. Most people also think they have an immortal soul but no verse says that either. So I wonder about the substance of where these beliefs come from.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
No, not wordplay. If people go to heaven there should be at least a few verses that say this. I see you could not find any. Most people also think they have an immortal soul but no verse says that either. So I wonder about the substance of where these beliefs come from.
God is Spirit
the sons of God are spirit

God is eternal
His sons are likely to follow
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
''Not at all... it was so full of holes that I figured it was more effort than it was worth.
That's called being lazy.
Hardly, you completely ignored that King David was never called wicked but rather friend.
King David himself admitted that he would be sent to Hell. (Psalm 16:10)
]Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ bore the sins of David as well. That fact does not exempt David from serving his time in Hell before being forgiven.

Now, I'm going to repeat some of what I posted earlier, but they didn't seem to stick the first time.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15) (Bold and italics added)

According to these verses, those who commit such heinous sins are considered "dogs" that are kept "without" the gates of the city that do not have the "right to the tree of life".

David is guilty of committing these sins and is therefore unfit to enter into the city.
And you completely ignore that He (Jesus) was made to be sin that we might be made the righteousness of God. 2Cor 5:21
It seems that you intentionally omitted part of the verse you referenced in a vain attempt to strengthen your argument.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21) (Bold and italics added)

First off, the "us" and "we" in this verse was not a reference to all people everywhere, but rather to those "ambassadors" who had been given the "word of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:19-20)

It's good to read more than just that very last verse of a chapter (like you also did with the Hebrews 9:28) because they offer us the proper context. Context is everything.

Second, this verse speaks specifically about these "ambassadors" who "knew no sin".

And we know that David committed many heinous sins. For which he claimed that he would go to Hell for.

I'll share another verse I referenced before that you seemed to have ignored.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6) (Bold and italics added)

Thus we see that David, who was in the extraordinary position of knowing God personally, no longer lived by faith because he knew God as a friend.

Therefore, because he had attained such "enlightenment", it would be impossible for him to be renewed "again unto repentance" if he should fall away.

The greater light and knowledge you possess can cause the greater condemnation if you were to betray that light and knowledge.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
You're getting better. You shared the second to last verse of the chapter instead of the very last one.

What do you believe the word "reconciliation" means? Does it mean to instantly forgive all with no action on the sinner's part? No price to be paid?

What about those who commit the "unpardonable sin" mentioned by the Savior? The sin against the Holy Ghost that cannot be forgiven in this life or the next?

If there is a sin that can never be forgiven, then there must be other sins that can only be forgiven in the next life, after spending some time in Hell.

The idea that the sufferings and death of the Lord Jesus Christ can give anyone a "free pass" to do whatever they want with no consequences is appalling. Truly disgusting.

I'll share the other reference I shared last time. Just for kicks.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

David wilfully committed grievous sins after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Therefore, there is no "sacrifice for sins" for him.

The Lord Jesus Christ suffered for his sins, but it availed David nothing, because he had sinned against a sure knowledge of God, which warrants the greatest of condemnations.

David will spend time in Hell until the Millennium after the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Earth. Then he will receive forgiveness of his sins, a physical resurrection from the dead and his Final Judgment.

After which he will enter into a place prepared for him by God, but it will not be as glorious an inheritance/authority/dominion than he would have received had he remained faithful.

Rather than use the scriptures to "combat" others. Your argument contradicts the other scriptures I quoted, while mine works in harmony with all the verses cited.

You try to make God into a liar. A Being that denies His own Word. While I further establish what He has decreed.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
King David himself admitted that he would be sent to Hell. (Psalm 16:10)

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hmmmm.... no. This is a Messianic verse and nobody went to Heaven until Jesus Christ died for sins. He was in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom.

There are no "double indemnity". Either Jesus paid for all sins or he didn't

First off, the "us" and "we" in this verse was not a reference to all people everywhere, but rather to those "ambassadors" who had been given the "word of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:19-20)

Hmmm.... no. This are the born-again believers, those who confess Jesus as Lord as did those who were in Paradise. They are new creations. Can't cherry pick verses.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6) (Bold and italics added)
David hadn't "tasted" the Heavenly redemption... doesn't apply to him because he was hadn't been a "partaker of the Holy Ghost" through a born-again experience.

What about those who commit the "unpardonable sin" mentioned by the Savior? The sin against the Holy Ghost that cannot be forgiven in this life or the next?

Certainly not King David.

"As far as the East is from the West, so far has he placed my transgressions". King David was among those who Jesus led to God's presence when he took captivity captive.

Now... if YOU want to go to Hell for a season, be it unto you as you have believed.

Remember, the Jesus said to the thief "Today you will se me in Paradise" and not "Have you get roasted for a while, then we will catch up to each other in Paradise".
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hmmmm.... no. This is a Messianic verse and nobody went to Heaven until Jesus Christ died for sins. He was in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom.

There are no "double indemnity". Either Jesus paid for all sins or he didn't



Hmmm.... no. This are the born-again believers, those who confess Jesus as Lord as did those who were in Paradise. They are new creations. Can't cherry pick verses.


David hadn't "tasted" the Heavenly redemption... doesn't apply to him because he was hadn't been a "partaker of the Holy Ghost" through a born-again experience.



Certainly not King David.

"As far as the East is from the West, so far has he placed my transgressions". King David was among those who Jesus led to God's presence when he took captivity captive.

Now... if YOU want to go to Hell for a season, be it unto you as you have believed.

Remember, the Jesus said to the thief "Today you will se me in Paradise" and not "Have you get roasted for a while, then we will catch up to each other in Paradise".

That is all such silly nonsense if you stop to think about it properly.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I figured you were one of those "born-again" people.

In my opinion, one of the laziest and most superficial branches of Christianity.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The verse clearly states that the Lord would not "leave" his soul in Hell. That is true. He will not be "left" there. It is a temporary condition.

The word "corruption" is always used to describe the decaying effects of physical death on the mortal body. He knew that his spirit would one day leave Hell to reunite with his physical body in a glorious and incorruptible resurrection.

David had received a sure witness of the Resurrection that would happen for all, for it was a "free gift" from the Lord, and knew that his body would go to the grave and his spirit to Hell, but after a time they would be reunited before he stood before the Holy One to be judged.

Peter later talks about this testimony had by David in the Book of Acts. I will touch on that soon.
Hmmmm.... no. This is a Messianic verse and nobody went to Heaven until Jesus Christ died for sins. He was in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom.
I am so glad that you understand that no one was able to enter "Heaven" until after the suffering, death and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Most people do not understand that when we die we enter into a temporary state of existence; either Paradise, Prison or Hell - depending on our actions - and stay there until the time of our resurrection.

However, the scriptures are clear, that David did not enter into Heaven upon the rise of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is true that the scriptures claim that many "saints" arose in a bodily resurrection after the Lord took up his physical body again, but Peter later made mention that David was not among those who had risen.

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Matthew 27:52-53)

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:29-31) (Bold and italics added)

You would think that the "friend" of God would have risen along with those "saints" when the Lord took up His physical body again, but alas, he had committed many grievous sins and was not counted in this first Resurrection of the just, but his spirit was left to suffer in Hell for a time.

Peter would have known if David had been among the risen and would have declared it proudly, if it had happened. But it didn't.

David's Messianic speech in Psalm 16 was a message of hope to all those consigned to Hell that they all would one day be freed from their suffering at some point and receive their physical bodies again in an incorruptible resurrection.

It is just as John later witnessed,

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:12-13)

Hell will deliver up it's captive spirits to reunite with their physical bodies before they receive their Final Judgment.

There are no "double indemnity". Either Jesus paid for all sins or he didn't
It is true that Lord Jesus Christ suffered for the sins of all, but the scriptures also claim that Hell is a real place that actually exists and that there are certain spirits who will dwell there for a time.

I don't understand how you can argue that the Lord suffered for our sins and that Hell somehow does not exist. You pick and choose which verses to believe?

Or are you arguing that Hell no longer exists?
Hmmm.... no. This are the born-again believers, those who confess Jesus as Lord as did those who were in Paradise. They are new creations. Can't cherry pick verses.
Not according to the verses in 2 Corinthians 5.

Paul was talking about those who had been called to the "ministry of reconciliation" who he referred to as "ambassadors".

It is so obviously clear from the wording of verse 20 that these "ambassadors" called to the "ministry of reconciliation" were not just any and all believers.

"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20)

"We" and "us" are references to these "ambassadors" called to the "ministry of reconciliation", while "you" and "ye" are the members of the Church in Corinth, or the general body of believers.
David hadn't "tasted" the Heavenly redemption... doesn't apply to him because he was hadn't been a "partaker of the Holy Ghost" through a born-again experience.
Are you trying to claim that the ancient followers of the Law of Moses did not receive redemption from the Fall?

Are you trying to claim that the Holy Ghost did not attend those ancient followers of the Law of Moses?

Are you trying to claim that the ancient followers of the Law of Moses were unable to repent of their sins?

All of these things were offered to the ancient Israelites. They were promised redemption and forgiveness through keeping the tenets of the Law of Moses.

I sincerely encourage you to go back and reread the scriptures.
Certainly not King David.
Rightly so, but he was just one step away from committing it.

However, the idea that there is a "unpardonable sin" kinda ruins your whole argument, doesn't it?

I mean, according to you, Christ already paid the price of sin so everyone is off the hook, right?
"As far as the East is from the West, so far has he placed my transgressions". King David was among those who Jesus led to God's presence when he took captivity captive.
The scripture you quote here doesn't support that argument.

What do you have to support it?
Now... if YOU want to go to Hell for a season, be it unto you as you have believed.
No, thanks.

I am able to find forgiveness for my sins in this life through the Lord Jesus Christ because I have avoided sins like murder adultery, so there is no need for me to spend any time in Hell.
Remember, the Jesus said to the thief "Today you will se me in Paradise" and not "Have you get roasted for a while, then we will catch up to each other in Paradise".
Do you somehow know all the sins committed by this thief?

Was he a baptized member of Christ's Church?

Did he ever murder someone? Commit adultery?

The Lord Jesus Christ is a perfect judge of character and He knew that this thief had not committed sins grievous enough to warrant any time spent in Hell.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
So people go up to heaven for a while and then come back to earth to reign? What's the point. And whatever you do be sure not to be MEEK for the Bible says the meek shall inherit the earth. And I guess I can't read very good because I still do not see where it specifically says anyone will go to heaven. In fact I see a verse that says NO MAN has ascended up to heaven. So I will need more help from you. Yes, "shall" is future but how and why are they in heaven now?
I've only read a few of the comments between you and KenS and it is so painful!

He honestly does not know what he is talking about.

You are correct in your assertion that no one goes immediately to "Heaven" upon death.

We enter into the Spirit World which exists here on the Earth.

When we die we enter into either Paradise, Prison or Hell - depending on our actions performed in this life.

All of these conditions are temporary. We will all leave these places at the moment we are Resurrected.
 
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