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Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Progressive revelation is like educating a child? We aren't children. Isn't everyone on the board an adult? Religion isn't a cult, you know.

Progressive revelation is demonstrated throughout the Bible. The devil is not identified specifically as the 'serpent' of Genesis until Revelation. (Revelation 20:1-3)

The players in the Bible's first prophesy (Genesis 3:15) were not identified until Jesus day. Addressing the serpent, God spoke of the seed who was going to receive a "heel" wound (one from which he would recover) but he would deliver a fatal head wound to the serpent. No one knew who the woman was....but we know now that it wasn't Eve. And we know what the heel wound is, and thanks to the Revelation, we know how satan meets his end.

Paul spoke of a "mystery" that was hidden from man until it was God's time to reveal more of his purpose.

Ephesians 1:9-10....
"making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (ESV)

Romans 16:25-26...
"Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith".

We get to see this progressive revelation and how it pertained to the chosen ones going to heaven as glorified spirits to rule with Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:7...
"But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory."

We get what we need, when God says its the time to reveal more of the features of his will. Before Pentecost, the disciples of Jesus had no idea that his Kingdom would rule from heaven and that they would go there with him. The holy spirit had to reveal it to them. God had to override their natural desire to live on earth and give them a desire to live as spirits in heaven.

If the light doesn't get brighter, then we are on the wrong path. (Proverbs 4:18) That is how I see it.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Post #41 @Deeje said "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife"

Post #52 @dybmh replied :" Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife“

Clear then gave almost three dozen historical examples from ancient Judeo-Christian literature demonstrating that ancient Jews DID beliefe in an afterlife.

Post #72 Deeje said : “ The one thing I think you are forgetting is that Israel was basically a very unfaithful nation when it came to obedience…”

Post #97 Deeje said : “…you are again quoting those whom Jesus rejected ……. you are relying on the words of those whom Jesus identified as the worst of teachers....from their "father the devil…”

Post #115 Deeje said : “… I have no interest in being "an authentic historian of Judeo-Christian beliefs"

Post #115, Speaking of the ancient Jews and Christians, Deeje said : “…I do not need their testimony about anything. “ (Deeje, #115)



Deeje,

In this thread we are speaking of the specific historical issue of whether the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife or not. Ancient Israels obedience and morals are not the issue. YOUR obedience and morals and honesty is an issue however.

1) DECEPTION HARMS ALL OF US
You cannot try to misrepresent another religion on a public forum and not expect someone to recognize the deception and to call you on it. I would think that, as a Jehovahs Witness, you would have suffered under others who misrepresented your beliefs enough that you would have learned not to “do unto others” that which has been done to you.


Once a Christian is caught in the act of misrepresenting the beliefs of others, (misrepresenting the ancient Jews in this case), the deceit not only damages others who are seeking good information on religion and are decieved, but it damages the person who engages in the deception itself. Not only that, but agnostic and atheist and other religions who see Christians engaging in such deceptions tend to develop wariness of Christianity in general. Thus, all Christians can be adversely affected by dishonesty in a fellow Christian.

No one wants to be called out for deception, but the fact that you were caught in it and then, instead of simply recognizing it (perhaps it started out as an innocent mistake…) and amending your claim that ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife, you try to discredit their textual examples of belief in an afterlife and immediately attack the ancient Jews and Christians and their literature as being “of the devil”. This is not how authentic Christians practicing authentic Christianity are supposed to act.
Whether you believe that early Jews and Christians were "of the devil" or whether they are wonderful and moral and God fearing was never the issue. It was whether the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife. There was never any need to demonize the early Jews nor the early Christians. There was instead, always a need for objective data for your position.


2) YOUR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF A FEW SCRIPTURES IS NOT A SUBSTITUTION FOR OBJECTIVE DATA FROM ANCIENT JEWISH SOURCES.



While you have offered us a few personal interpretations of scripture to show that YOU don’t believe in an afterlife, your personal interpretation of scriptures simply tells us what YOU believe. This neither reflects nor affects the ancient Jewish belief in an afterlife. While you can argue that the jews are correct or incorrect on their specific belief, you cannot argue historically, that they did not believe what they said they believed and taught in their own texts and in their own words.


3) THE ANCIENT JEWS DID CLAIM TO BELIEVE IN AN AFTERLIFE AND DESCRIBE THE AFTERLIFE IN THEIR TEXTS, INCLUDING THE TALMUD

It has become apparent to readers who have followed our thread and who have been given almost three dozen examples of authentic ancient Jewish description (many that came from the Jewish Talmud itself) that the ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife.



Forum readers: The ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife. They tell us that they did and they give details of their beliefs in the Jewish Talmud, the Haggadah, the Zohar and many, much of the ancient Judeo-Christian literature.

Readers who are interested in the Jewish description of their beliefs can refer to posts #65, 78, 80, 88, 89. I expect that if Deeje had objective historical evidence to the contrary, Deeje would have already offered it.


Clear
ειτζτωσεω
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO

In the garden of eden the devil told eve that she would not die when you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Which was a lie.But were in the bible does it say the devil made up the idea of the immortal soul?:confused:

Hi Frank Goad;

I am not quite sure that I understand the underlying question of your O.P. and its’ nuances regarding the spirit of mankind and its “immortality”. The early concept of existence of spirits is reflected in the Jewish version of “forever and ever”, me’olam le’olam which in this context means that you come From the eternities past and then go to the eternities future.

The forum thread has spent some time discussing the ancient concept of an afterlife in a very, very basic way (i.e. it existed in early Judeo-Christian theology), the other concept is a “pre-life”. That is, the existence of the existence of individuals before they come to earth through birth.



MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :

Inasmuch as these are HISTORICAL texts one must try to read the words in the ancient context. For example when Adam's spirit (in abbaton text) is placed into his body and be thereby becomes a man, he exclaims that he is "created" into another form. In the ancient context, he is referring, NOT to his spirit (which obviously did exist since it talked and communicated and did things), but he was re-created into a MAN. Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)

The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)
In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.”

After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)

The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham : “Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)

The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).

When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)

In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7) The history of this great heavenly celebration is part of the early Judeo-Christian literature.

The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits : “And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them.... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
post two

In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked : Quote:
After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. IN this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :

“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)

In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)


This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”

Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says "God consoles her." The text relates God telling the soul that Quote: The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”

The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : “the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. [...]Speaking of those left behind who mourn it was taught “Withal, the village people weep for the departure of the king’s son from among them. But one wise man said to them: ‘Why do you weep? Was this not the king’s son, whose true place is in his father’s palace and not with you?...’ “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, ... (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)
.

When one looks inside of ancient Christianity, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave the early Church it’s value. The doctrines of early Christianity seem to me to be more rational, more logical, more intuitive and more detailed concerning what God is doing with man than the doctrines of the many, many later Christian movements.

In any case, I hope you form your own models as to what God is doing with mankind and that your journey in life is wonderful Frank Goad.

Clear
ειτζτωσεω
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Progressive revelation is demonstrated throughout the Bible. The devil is not identified specifically as the 'serpent' of Genesis until Revelation. (Revelation 20:1-3)

The players in the Bible's first prophesy (Genesis 3:15) were not identified until Jesus day. Addressing the serpent, God spoke of the seed who was going to receive a "heel" wound (one from which he would recover) but he would deliver a fatal head wound to the serpent. No one knew who the woman was....but we know now that it wasn't Eve. And we know what the heel wound is, and thanks to the Revelation, we know how satan meets his end.

Paul spoke of a "mystery" that was hidden from man until it was God's time to reveal more of his purpose.

Ephesians 1:9-10....
"making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (ESV)

Romans 16:25-26...
"Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith".

We get to see this progressive revelation and how it pertained to the chosen ones going to heaven as glorified spirits to rule with Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:7...
"But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory."

We get what we need, when God says its the time to reveal more of the features of his will. Before Pentecost, the disciples of Jesus had no idea that his Kingdom would rule from heaven and that they would go there with him. The holy spirit had to reveal it to them. God had to override their natural desire to live on earth and give them a desire to live as spirits in heaven.

If the light doesn't get brighter, then we are on the wrong path. (Proverbs 4:18) That is how I see it.

You mean this bit?

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The dragon and beast is still referring to Rome.

The restrainer of 2 Thessalonians is the Holy Spirit.


the source of John’s imagery is Ezekiel, and that the battle of chapter nineteen is from Ezekiel’s description of God’s destruction of Gog and
Magog.

But if chapter nineteen is the battle of Gog and Magog, so is chapter twenty, for it is expressly so called.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Post #41 @Deeje said "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife"

Post #52 @dybmh replied :" Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife“

Clear then gave almost three dozen historical examples from ancient Judeo-Christian literature demonstrating that ancient Jews DID beliefe in an afterlife.

Post #72 Deeje said : “ The one thing I think you are forgetting is that Israel was basically a very unfaithful nation when it came to obedience…”

Post #97 Deeje said : “…you are again quoting those whom Jesus rejected ……. you are relying on the words of those whom Jesus identified as the worst of teachers....from their "father the devil…”

Post #115 Deeje said : “… I have no interest in being "an authentic historian of Judeo-Christian beliefs"

Post #115, Speaking of the ancient Jews and Christians, Deeje said : “…I do not need their testimony about anything. “ (Deeje, #115)
I'm sorry, but your posts are becoming quite bizarre. o_O

You do realize that the large type is internet shouting.....is this necessary to get your point across?

Deeje,

In this thread we are speaking of the specific historical issue of whether the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife or not. Ancient Israels obedience and morals are not the issue. YOUR obedience and morals and honesty is an issue however.

That is quite an accusation Clear. You are questioning my morals and honesty now? Just because I disagree with your strongly held beliefs? I believe that you are mistaken in your judgments, as you believe I am. These responses are getting serious.

I have made my position very plain and simple.....your sources are not Biblical. They are the writings of an apostate religious system that was condemned by Jesus Christ. These references of yours are not scripture and they do not present the accurate beliefs of the Jews according to the Hebrew scriptures. They are the distorted writings of men who adopted Greek philosophy and fused them with apostate Jewish ideas. You don't have a leg to stand on unfortunately. The Bible disagrees with them and you. You can ignore all those scriptures I gave you to prop up you own beliefs, but it alters nothing.

You cannot try to misrepresent another religion on a public forum and not expect someone to recognize the deception and to call you on it. I would think that, as a Jehovahs Witness, you would have suffered under others who misrepresented your beliefs enough that you would have learned not to “do unto others” that which has been done to you.

Can I ask if anyone has ever questioned your beliefs? You fail to identify what 'branch' of Christianity you represent. So please identify yourself so we can give your church some scrutiny....


I tell the truth as I understand it. I have relied on the Bible for my information, not on unreliable traditions of men who distorted the application of the scriptures both before and after Jesus came to this earth.
I believe it is you who has been deceived.

Once a Christian is caught in the act of misrepresenting the beliefs of others, (misrepresenting the ancient Jews in this case), the deceit not only damages others who are seeking good information on religion and are decieved, but it damages the person who engages in the deception itself.

Wow....you are really wounded by this....I have not misrepresented the beliefs of the original Jews who received the writings of Moses as the word of God. What the Jews did later is written in scripture for all the world to see. Their history is one of continual departure from God's commands requiring prophets to be sent to correct them time and time again. They did not respond well most of the time. The last prophet to be sent to Israel was Malachi and his message was not well received either, as was usual for the Religious Leaders of that "stiff-necked" nation.

So far had they fallen from their devotion to Jehovah that apparently they were divorcing their wives to marry women worshiping false gods. Also, they adopted practices like sorcery, adultery, lying, fraud, and oppression. (Malachi 2:11, 14-16; 3:5, 8-10) For this reason Jehovah gave advance warning of his coming to his temple for judgment. (Malachi 3:1-6) At the same time he encouraged wrongdoers to repent, saying: “Return to me, and I will return to you.” (Malachi 3:7)
But Israel’s priests despised God’s name, accepting lame and sick animals for sacrifice; they would not give animals like that to a human governor. Add to that 400 years without any correction and you have the reason why Jesus was not sent to the Jewish Leaders, but only to the "lost sheep". His castigation of those despicable Jewish leaders in Matthew 23 is proof enough of why God had to 'abandon' them as his people. (Matthew 23:37-39) He fulfilled his obligation to them....they never fulfilled their obligation to him.

Not only that, but agnostic and atheist and other religions who see Christians engaging in such deceptions tend to develop wariness of Christianity in general. Thus, all Christians can be adversely affected by dishonesty in a fellow Christian.

Seriously....who is getting all emotional now? If people can't handle the truth then they better start learning to if they want to survive the coming end to this wicked system of things. Its a case of listen to the messenger or listen to God's coming judgement by his Christ. He has no time for "workers of lawlessness". (Matthew 7:21-23)

It has become apparent to readers who have followed our thread and who have been given almost three dozen examples of authentic ancient Jewish description (many that came from the Jewish Talmud itself) that the ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife.

It is apparent to the readers that you are displaying a rather strange desperation in these posts. You apparently have a lot riding on your immortal soul doctrine.

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation.

But what does the Bible say? And why do you keep ignoring it?

Hang on.....now I am beginning to understand.....don't tell me, let me guess.....are you a Mormon?
Mormons are the only "Christians" I know of who subscribe to a 'life before birth as well as life after death' scenario.....is this why this topic is so personal for you? Its why you can't accept that we don't have an immortal soul that gets a chance to exist as humans before going back to heaven.....? It undoes your whole belief system. :eek:

Forum readers: The ancient Jews DID believe in an afterlife. They tell us that they did and they give details of their beliefs in the Jewish Talmud, the Haggadah, the Zohar and many, much of the ancient Judeo-Christian literature.

Readers who are interested in the Jewish description of their beliefs can refer to posts #65, 78, 80, 88, 89. I expect that if Deeje had objective historical evidence to the contrary, Deeje would have already offered it.

My "evidence" is contained in every scripture I quoted or cited. Did I see you quote any?

The readers can evaluate the evidence for themselves....what are you afraid of....?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You mean this bit?

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The dragon and beast is still referring to Rome.

The restrainer of 2 Thessalonians is the Holy Spirit.


the source of John’s imagery is Ezekiel, and that the battle of chapter nineteen is from Ezekiel’s description of God’s destruction of Gog and
Magog.

But if chapter nineteen is the battle of Gog and Magog, so is chapter twenty, for it is expressly so called.

:facepalm: Believe whatever you wish....you will anyway. :rolleyes:

Where on earth do you get these whacky ideas? You never back anything up from the Bible but make these sweeping statements as if they are absolute truth....sorry but they are nonsense....based on what? Who said?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I have not misrepresented the beliefs of the original Jews who received the writings of Moses as the word of God
Please forgive the interruption? This is the part that I think needs more support. What is your source for 'the beliefs of the original Jews who received the writings of Moses'? Without Mishnah, Talmud, Midrash, etc... it seems impossible to assert with confidence the beliefs of the original Jews.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
HockeyCowboy claimed : "You are using apocrypha to support this....it carries no weight."

Hi HockeyCowboy,

I understand that you are definitely NOT a historian, still, you should be aware that The Jewish Talmud is NOT apocrypha. The Jewish Pseudepigrapha is NOT apocrypha. The Haggadah is NOT apocrypha. The early Christian and syncretic texts I referred to are NOT the apocrypha. I am not sure you can find a single quote I used in any of my posts in this thread came from the apocrypha (maybe one? I don't know and don't care to look - perhaps you can actually read what I wrote and show me a quote from the apocrypha?).

The other thing you must remember is that YOUR texts and YOUR christianity is not the same as all other christians of all times and all places.

While early texts, including the apocrypha, are not important to you personally, the early Judeo-Christian texts WERE important to the early Judeo-Christians who wrote them to spread and explain the early christian faith, and to those who read them, and to the writers of sacred texts who used them and quoted from them and they are certainly very, very important to religious historians who are seeking to understand what early Judaism and early Christianity was like, it's beliefs, it's interpretation, it's texts, etc.

While early Judeo-Christianity and it's texts are not important to you, they were to early Judeo-Christians and they are to scholars and religious historians.


HockeyCowboy claimed : " In fact, it contradicts the Bible Canon. Ecclesiastes 9 5,10; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:3-4; Genesis 3:19, all state the person is gone at death. Not the body, but the person"

HockyCowboy, the ancient Jewish and Christians and their historical texts contradict your personal religious doctrines and your personal INTERPRETATION of these texts on this point of whether the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife. Your use of scriptures is different than early Judeo-Christianity.

You must, at some point, come to understand that the early Jews and the early Christians did NOT have the same religion as you do. They did not have the same worldviews as you do and they did not have the same interpretation of the texts as you do, (as you just inadvertently demonstrated).

The ancient Jews DID have a belief in an afterlife and, as I pointed out, they used ecclesiastes 9 in the Jewish talmud, to explain their belief in a constant after life of spirits.

In any case, IF you ever become interested in the deeper studies of early Christian history, you will become interested in these texts, you will become interested in early languages such as Greek or Hebrew; you will become interested in critical texts to allow you to compare differing versions of biblical texts; you will become interested in gaining a greater historical context and understanding of ancient religion.

Good luck HockyCowboy.

Clear
νεδρνεω
Your erroneous assessment of my historical knowledge oozes with condescension. My application of the word apocrypha to the sources of your quotes does fit, using it's broadest definition: your sources are not found in the Bible. There's a reason they're not. @Deeje is right, many of the Jews had apostatized. It's obvious when reading 1 Kings 18:22; Jeremiah 7:31; etc. Heretics.

Interesting how you quote from all these non-canonical sources (which lack authority) but ignore the accepted 66-book Scriptures.

On top of that, you say I'm interpreting...but then you're not?

Take care
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Forum Members,


1) INDIVIDUAL BELIEFS ARE NOT ALL TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE.

All of us have beliefs but not all of those beliefs are to be clearly apparent from the biblical text. IF, for example Jehovahs Witnesses believed that the end of 1914 is the “end of the time of the trouble”, or the end of human rulership, one may not be able to tell from the biblical text. Thus, the Jehovahs Witnesses produce other texts and commentaries explaining this belief.

The Jews did the same with their beliefs. The Jews produced vast amounts of commentary regarding what scriptures meant to THEM. Catholics did the same. Jehovahs witnessed did the same. The silly insistence that one must find all beliefs in clear form in the bible is ignoring the historical reality that much of our beliefs are declared and explained in diaries, commentaries, Sunday school pamphlets, and orally at our pulpits.


2) AS CHRISTIANS, WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CONDEMN DECEPTION IN OTHERS AND THEN PRACTICE IT OURSELVES

Hypocrisy is one thing that even athiests do not honor. It will undermine all other claims to morality we may have. One religious form of it is the double standard where an individual criticizes other religions for abandoning truth while they are in the process doing do the very same thing.

For example, if a religionist condemns others they view as “being deceived” or “children of the devil” but then attempts to deceive another poster about ancient Jewish beliefs (or any other religion other than their own which they are familiar with) this is morally inconsistent.

IF someone does not care nor “need to know anything about the ancient Jewish testimonies” regarding what they Jews themselves believe, then I think this disqualifies the uncaring person from teaching that specific history. One MUST care about accurate history if they are going to teach accurate history.


3) DISPARAGEMENT DOES NOT REPLACE NOR JUSTIFY MISREPRESENTATION OF JEWISH BELIEFS

IF I point out a misrepresentation of Jewish doctrine, and receive a response that "the Jews were" “a very unfaithful nation” and that their words were “from their father the devil”, this still does not explain or excuse misrepresenting the Jewish belief.



4) DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE DO NOT JUSTIFY MISREPRESENTATION OF JEWISH BELIEFS

“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing…” Eccl 9:5

IF one quotes Ecclesiates 9:5 as evidence of JEWISH belief (The Jews wrote the Old Testament scriptures after all) but then the person applys a JEHOVAHS WITNESS INTERPRETATION instead of the Jewish interpretation, and implies the interpretation is that of the ancient Jews, this is simply an another misrepresentation of Jewish beliefs.


5) The Jewish Talmud
:
The Wikipedia description of the Talmud tells us that the Talmud “is the central text of Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law (halakha) and Jewish theology”.

The Jewish Talmud gives us MANY, MANY examples of the Jewish belief that spirits are congnisant and communicate after the spirit leaves the body.

For examples :

I gave the Talmudic example of the King who judged both the body and spirit as one since the text explained that they are separate and have separate lives. Babylonia Talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b (I even offered the ancient Christian version of this same story from Apocryphon of Ezekiel frag 1 vs 6-11.)

I gave an example from the Jewish Zohar that confirms the spirit lived separate from the body.

I quoted New Testament Clement from his diaries confirming the existence of spirits who had an afterlife.

I gave multiple examples of the Jewish Talmudic interpretation on Eccelesiates 9:5 where they explained what it was the dead did not know. (The spirits of the dead were cognizant, but they did not know about things happening in this world).

I gave the Talmudic discourse of Rabbi Hiyya and Rabbi Jonathan teaching that it is proper not to let the fringes touch the ground because it was seen as a mocking of the dead who are aware of what they no longer can do.
The ancient Jews AND the ancient Christians DID make distinctions about what the dead can and cannot do.

I gave a Talmudic example from R. Hiyyas sons and Rabbi Isaac who explain there are some things the dead know and some things they know nothing about.

I gave the Talmudic example of the farmer where the Talmud teaches specific things the dead know and discuss and are aware of and the things the dead know nothing about.

I gave an example from the Talmud about the communications between spirits regarding their memories in life (the dead still remember all things that happened to them).

The Talmud expression after this story is : “Does not this show that they [the dead] know?”

I gave the Talmudic example, where Moses is told, that when he dies he is to go and tell Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that God had carried out his promises to their descendents. The dead can communicate and tell each other things in this Jewish belief.

There are many, many other examples where the Talmud explains and discusses what the dead do and do not know in the Jewish interpretation of Ecclesiates 9:5. In all cases, the issue is not whether the dead live in a spirit world or not, but what and how much they know.

Though the Talmud is the central text of Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law (halakha) and Jewish theology, EVEN IF someone thinks that these are the words “of those whom Jesus identified as the worst of teachers....from their "father the devil…”, this disparagement does not change the fact that the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife.


I think it is clear enough to readers that the Jews believed as they claimed to believe in their literature and Forum members are able to judge for themselves regarding whether the Jews are honest in their claims to a belief in the afterlife as it is described in their own literature.


Clear
ειτζσισεω
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Hypocrisy will undermine all other claims to morality...

All of Post#130, Very well said. I think the excerpt above deserves emphasis. In simplest terms; what you said about hypocrisy: it's "frame-worthy".
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
recently viewed a documentary with an expert leading the discussion

the topic was historical accuracy of what scripture puts forth
while visiting archeological dig sites and long held religious monuments

for a moment the camera and the expert listen in as a tour guide
reports to the crowd.....
the immediate surroundings are where certain events took place
as believed to have occurred
historically


the expert then claims these popular beliefs …..and the info of the tour
are not accurate


I like watching such documentaries

it displays in detail how sooooooo many people
believe sooooooo many things

even as they unearth soooo many items centuries old

all the while claiming they have found the truth

but really
is truth something buried?

do artifacts rewrite history?

and can anyone point a finger crying …..hypocrite!
?????
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
can anyone point a finger crying …..hypocrite!
?????
No. But hypocrisy shouldn't get a free ride either. I think, the difference is calling someone a hypocrite compared to identifying hypocrisy.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Please forgive the interruption? This is the part that I think needs more support. What is your source for 'the beliefs of the original Jews who received the writings of Moses'? Without Mishnah, Talmud, Midrash, etc... it seems impossible to assert with confidence the beliefs of the original Jews.

Interruption welcome. :)

When were the Mishna, Talmud and Midrash written?

As a bit of background please consider.....
The Mishna is compilation of Jewish oral law and tradition that expands on and interprets God’s written Law, especially that given to Moses. It was compiled and put into written form by the early third century C.E.
The Mishnah later became the foundation of the Talmud which is a compilation of traditional oral law, containing Jewish civil and religious regulation that consists of two main parts—the Mishnah, a law code, and the Gemara, a commentary on that code.

There are two Talmuds—the Palestinian (c. 400 C.E.) and the Babylonian (c. 600 C.E.). The latter is more extensive and is regarded as the pillar of rabbinic law. Considered by the Jews to be a complement to the Hebrew Scriptures, the Talmud sets out an exhaustive code of conduct that addresses every aspect of life. By the time of the Middle Ages, many Jews revered the Talmud more than the Scriptures.

While claiming to complement the Scriptures, the Mishnah actually does the opposite—in effect, burying God’s laws and principles under a mountain of man-made rules and traditions. (Mark 7:1; 13)

The Mishnah has historical value for Bible students because it provides background information on certain passages of Scripture and explains ancient Jewish customs and attitudes toward God’s name.

During a subsequent period of relative peace with Rome, Judah Ha-Nasi, the leading rabbi of the late second and early third centuries C.E., gathered numerous scholars and edited vast amounts of oral tradition into an organized system made up of six Orders, each subdivided into smaller tractates—63 in all. This work became known as the Mishnah.

Ephraim Urbach, an authority on the oral law, wrote: “The Mishnah . . . was granted approval and authority such as had never been granted to any book except the Torah itself.”

Considering the time period of their compilation and writing, we can see that these were the writings of a religious system that was already corrupt when Jesus began his ministry. How much trust can you have in them when Jesus had nothing good to say about the teachings of this apostate system. You think they have changed? Jesus knew that they were incorrigible. (Matthew 23:37-39)

These writings are a poor substitute for God's word, standing alone, speaking for itself, without their spin.

Talmud - Wikipedia
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Though the Talmud is the central text of Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law (halakha) and Jewish theology, EVEN IF someone thinks that these are the words “of those whom Jesus identified as the worst of teachers....from their "father the devil…”, this disparagement does not change the fact that the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife.

This topic is very obviously a sticking point with you...and as you didn't answer my question about your particular 'brand' of "Christianity" then I will assume that I was correct. If you are a Mormon, then you need this doctrine to be correct because, if it isn't, your whole belief system falls apart. This would explain your desperate pleas to the forum readers. Sad really. You ignore scripture to promote the writings of apostates....the very thing that Jesus condemned in the Pharisees.

The fact that apostate Jews adopted Greek philosophical beliefs in an afterlife does indeed alter the question. If those Jews sold out to false religious concepts, (as their history proves that they were want to do) then that rules out the Jews from before Jesus' earthly sojourn, as accurate teachers of Bible truth. They altered their interpretation of scripture to suit what they wanted to believe.
You are supporting them. What does that say about the foundations of your belief system? Built on rock...or sand?

We get one chance to get things right before the judgment.

Jesus said it would be 'just like the days of Noah' (Matthew 24:37-39) so do we see the similarity? God was about to bring that world of wickedness to an end and he gave Noah an opportunity to save himself and his family. God didn't save them, but provided instructions which had to be followed to the letter, so that they could work to secure their own survival. The world of that time was "filled with violence" and immorality....and here we are again. It is just going from bad to worst.

Who survived the end of that world? Only those who followed God's instructions completely. Close enough was not going to be good enough, especially because it was going to be a tough experience.

All the instructions we need are contained in God's word. He did not provide anything else. No one does themselves any favours by following the ideas of misguided men.

This is why?
1 John 5:19....
"We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

The devil is a deceiver who has had thousands of years to perfect his crafty deceptions. This is why I stick to the Bible alone. If you study God's word, you will find that it interprets itself.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No. But hypocrisy shouldn't get a free ride either. I think, the difference is calling someone a hypocrite compared to identifying hypocrisy.

What hypocrisy? Please explain where there was any hypocrisy in what I wrote. Telling an uncomfortable truth is what Jesus did. It made the Pharisees so mad that they plotted to kill him.

They had no intention to change their minds, their ideas or their ways, so they did what they had always done...they killed the messenger.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What hypocrisy? Please explain where there was any hypocrisy in what I wrote. Telling an uncomfortable truth is what Jesus did. It made the Pharisees so mad that they plotted to kill him.

They had no intention to change their minds, their ideas or their ways, so they did what they had always done...they killed the messenger.
I think it would be highly inappropriate for me to label anything you said as hypocrisy. I have a lot to learn.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Forum members :

Does anyone see ANY data in any of Deejes posts that offers better and more conclusive objective data as to what the Jews themselves believe than what the Jews themselves said they believed?

He offers theories about Jewish apostasy from early belief. Where is the evidence of change in belief on this specific theory on this specific doctrine?

While Disparagement of the Jews plays to an interesting debate, it still does not take the place of objective data describing their beliefs. If the ancient Jews in their ancient descriptions tell us they believed in an afterlife, then I do not think someone who admits they do not care what the Jews say and does not have interest in authentic history should have more credibility than the claims the Jews themselves make. Especially when the non-historian offers no objective data other than a personal interpretation of a scripture which the Jews themselves wrote. Readers who want objective, rational, logical data will still have no cause to doubt the Jews believed what they say they believed unless someone can provide objective evidence otherwise.

Other than personal interpretation, what data has been offered that the Jews do not believe what they say they believed?

Clear
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think it would be highly inappropriate for me to label anything you said as hypocrisy. I have a lot to learn.

There is nothing that I post on these boards that is not well researched....I had a lot to learn too....and I have spent the last 45 years doing just that.....do I know it all? Hardly, but what I do know, I have put in the time to study it thoroughly. I always enjoy learning new things.....Bible truth to me is sort of like a diamond....there are always more facets to enhance the beauty of the whole precious stone.

I hope you will evaluate Bible truth on its own merits...it stands alone because it interprets itself. The thing is...you have to know what it teaches as a whole.....not just snippets that someone told you were to be understood a certain way.

Examine every doctrine and see where it came from. Christendom adopted all manner of false religious beliefs from paganism....rebranded it and dressed it up to look "Christian"...but the reality is...it never was.

Would you like to explore these things?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Deeje, Thank you for your kind reply, my friend. I am interested in exploring these things. But I need to do it in my own way. I am at the point in my life where, thank God, I know myself. And part of knowing myself is knowing how I learn, and knowing how I can sabotage my own best intentions.

That's why I say, I need to explore these things in my own way.

Most sincerely, I appreciate you, and all JWs for their devotion to maintain the accuracy of the text. It is very important to me ( and others ).
 
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