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Who will get to heaven?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
All seems a bit convoluted to me.
Convoluted (?) or God's original purpose as found at Genesis 1:28
Adam was never offered heaven but everlasting life on Earth. Live forever on Earth
Nothing convoluted about obey God's Law and live forever on Earth, break God's Law and forfeit one's life.
No post-mortem penalty for Adam, No double jeopardy for Adam, just returning to dust - Genesis 3:19.
Adam passed down to us the sin and death sentence. We can't stop sinning or we would Not die.
Since we are innocent of what Adam did, and we can Not resurrect oneself nor resurrect another we need some who can resurrect us.
This is where Jesus enters into the picture because Jesus can and will resurrect the dead - Revelation 1:18.
Not convoluted but simple: Adam lost everlasting life on Earth, Jesus will restore everlasting life on Earth.
This is why Jesus taught that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.
This all begins with Jesus' soon coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I don't know... let me ask you a question. Was King David's murder of the husband of Bathsheba and committing adultery evil wicked deeds?
Did God call King David "Friend"?
Yes, indeed, which is why his story is so tragic.

He knew God personally and was known as His friend. Yet, he forsook the righteousness of God for the wickedness of Satan, for which he will suffer for a time in hell. (Psalm 16:10, Acts 2:31)

The scriptures clearly teach that those who commit such wicked deeds have no "right to the tree of life" and cannot enter the "gates of the city" and are therefore left "without" the city. (Revelation 22:14-15)

The scriptures also clearly teach that those who "fall away" after becoming "enlightened", tasters "of the heavenly gift", "partakers of the Holy Ghost", tasters of "the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" are guilty of "[crucifying] to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

In other words,

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

The fact that he was sorrowful for his sins did not change the laws decreed by God. By committing wicked deeds David became a wicked man and he will receive the same punishment as other wicked men.
So, apparently, I'm not so off.
You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you can only come to this conclusion if you ignore the scriptures.
However, Satan is called, "The Wicked One"
Because from the beginning he was unfaithful to God and a murderer. (John 8:44)

The very same sins David is guilty of.
In that they selected The Serpents voice over God's, they exchanged gods.
By this logic nobody upon the Earth would truly be following God because everyone who sins is "selecting [Satan's voice] over God's" and everyone commits sin. (Romans 3:23)
That is why the god of this world is Satan.
Satan is not a god by any means. Are you also going to claim that Moses was a god? (Exodus 7:1)

What Paul said concerning Satan was,

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:4) (Bold, italics and underline added)

Satan may have the ability to blind the minds of them who don't believe, but he has no real power or authority over this world.

Just like how Moses may have been called to be a "god" to Pharaoh, he himself had no real power or authority. He only spoke and acted on God's behalf.

It is God who has the real power and authority over this world, not Satan.

Adam and Eve did not "believe" in God, they knew Him personally. Satan had not the means to "blind" them.

However, the one advantage he had over them was the fact that he had a knowledge of good and evil and they did not.

The serpent did lie when it claimed that Eve would not die if she partook of the fruit, but she lacked the ability to perceive deception.(Genesis 3:4)

Eve's reasons for partaking of the fruit were clearly recorded in the Genesis account,

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat..." (Genesis 3:6) (Bold and italics added)

We do not need a knowledge of good and evil to discern if something is edible or pleasing to the natural eye. She also did not need to have a knowledge of good and evil to recognize that the tree would be desirable to any who sought wisdom.

She did not "exchange gods" at that time because that act would have required abilities of the mind that she did not yet possess.

Adam's reasons were also recorded in the Genesis account when he told God,

"The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Genesis 3:12)

He partook for the simple reason that the woman who God gave to be his wife gave him the fruit and asked him to partake of it after she herself had.

There are other works that record how Adam was content in the Garden while Eve was restless, but I will try to contain my comments to the Bible.
No... Eve was deceived.
She was only deceived into believing that she would not "surely die" if she partook of the fruit.

Everything else the serpent said to her was accurate.
Never said Adam completely left believing in God. Fear is what Satan uses so Adam is now under the influence of Satan. Perfect love (God) casts out all fear.
I'm starting to think that you don't really believe that Adam and Eve were real people who actually lived.

If you did believe that they were real then you might be able to find some empathy for them.

Adam had just received a knowledge of good and evil. He was filled with thoughts and feelings he had never felt before.

He had literally zero experience dealing with these kinds of things.

Adam said, "I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself." (Genesis 3:10).

This "fear" caused him to make an apron out of fig leaves in a failed attempt to cover up his nudity and when that failed he hid from God.

He was ashamed of his nudity. But why?

The record clearly teaches that Adam and Eve came to believe that nudity was something to be ashamed of only after their condition was explained to them by someone or something that already had a knowledge of good and evil, most likely Satan through the serpent.

The first thing that God asked Adam after he explained that he had hid because he was naked was, "Who told thee that thou wast naked?" (Genesis 3:11)

This proves that God knew that Adam could only have come to the conclusion that nudity was something to be ashamed of if someone or something which employed tactics using fear and shame had explained that to them.

Gaining a knowledge of good and evil alone would not have forced Adam to come to that conclusion because nudity, in and of itself, is neither good nor evil.

God then asked about the fruit because He knew that Adam would not have felt or understood shame unless he had first gained a knowledge of good and evil.

That knowledge could only have been gained by Adam if he had partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Even though Satan used tactics of "fear" and "shame" to try and manipulate Adam into fearing God, the record states that Adam did not hide because he was afraid of God, but because he was ashamed of his own nakedness. That was it.
Hardly. Adam disobeyed.
Adam multiplied and replenished the Earth as God commanded.
Fruitfulness was already in his power.
Where is that written?

I am of the opinion that Adam and Eve were unable to "know" one another or have children without first partaking of the fruit.

Our reproductive systems require death in order to function properly. Death would never have entered into the world had Adam and Eve not eaten of the fruit.

While in the Garden their bodies were immortal and glorious, yet when they Fell, their bodies became mortal and this led to proper sexual urges and functionality.
Hardly. When Eve partook, he had the choice either to cast the Serpent out (for he had authority) or disobey God.
How could Adam understand that the serpent had done anything wrong if he had no knowledge of good and evil?

No being can render judgment without a knowledge of good and evil.

Besides, why cast the serpent out? Did it eat of the fruit? Which of the two commandments given by God did it break?

Even if Adam could understand and make a judgment, wouldn't he also need to cast Eve out as well?

How could Adam have fulfilled the commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth without Eve?
Yes, he partook. That's like saying "Since my wife is going to rob a bank and go to jail, I guess I will do it to"
Adam would have been unable to make that determination because he had no knowledge of good and evil.

If you were unable to comprehend that robbing a bank and going to jail were "bad" things, wouldn't you follow the woman that God commanded you stay with and multiply?
So, I call it foolishness.
Can a newborn baby act foolishly?

Do you expect a newborn baby to have a knowledge of good and evil?

It would have been impossible for Adam to act foolishly for the same reason that it would have been impossible for him to act wisely.

He had no knowledge of good and evil. No ability to judge either in righteousness or wickedness.
Yay! We agree on something! :)
But he did
Again, you are free to believe whatever you want, but the Genesis account clearly records that neither Adam nor Eve had knowledge of good and evil until after they partook of the fruit.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" (Genesis 3:22)
And you know this how?
By reading the Bible.
Yes they did. The word for "die" is plural in the Hebrew and I doubt that God didn't explain what it meant. They statements after are based on your own interpretation.
Adam and Eve lived before the creation of the Hebrew language and therefore did not speak or write it.

How would God have explained to Adam what death and all that it implied was if Adam had no mortal experience or knowledge of good and evil?
You are free to believe what you want, but I have not found anything in the scriptures that teaches otherwise.
Yes... He always wants us to return to Him.
Not according to you.

According to you, God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden to live forever there alone, without knowledge of good and evil or the ability to multiply.

They would have remained in the Garden while nothing changed around them because there was no death in the world.

They would have forever lived away from God upon the Earth.

What would have been the purpose of such an existence?
 
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Prestor John

Well-Known Member
You have no concept of the power of the blood of Jesus Christ.
I noticed that you completely ignored all the scriptures I directly quoted from to support my argument.

Doesn't that say something?

You have such a limited view of the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ that you believe that mercy can rob justice.

He did not come into the world to suffer and die to save us in our sins.

He came to save us from our sins.

And there are those certain sins that can only be forgiven of once the sinner has spent his due in Hell.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Convoluted (?) or God's original purpose as found at Genesis 1:28
Adam was never offered heaven but everlasting life on Earth. Live forever on Earth
Nothing convoluted about obey God's Law and live forever on Earth, break God's Law and forfeit one's life.
No post-mortem penalty for Adam, No double jeopardy for Adam, just returning to dust - Genesis 3:19.
Adam passed down to us the sin and death sentence. We can't stop sinning or we would Not die.
Since we are innocent of what Adam did, and we can Not resurrect oneself nor resurrect another we need some who can resurrect us.
This is where Jesus enters into the picture because Jesus can and will resurrect the dead - Revelation 1:18.
Not convoluted but simple: Adam lost everlasting life on Earth, Jesus will restore everlasting life on Earth.
This is why Jesus taught that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.
This all begins with Jesus' soon coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth

Wouldn't an all knowing god know that Adam would sin in the first place?,it would have saved god sending his son to die on the cross,he would also know the consequences of religions effect on the world.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Surely god would have known how a person would react if told not to do something that would gain them more knowledge. If god exists and created human nature, it is to blame for all that is wrong in the world.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't an all knowing god know that Adam would sin in the first place?,it would have saved god sending his son to die on the cross,he would also know the consequences of religions effect on the world.
Yes, He did know that Adam and Eve would eventually partake of the fruit.

The scriptures claim that the Lord Jesus Christ had been foreordained to be the Messiah "before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:18-20)

The plan that God the Father had for His children always involved the Fall of Man and the Atonement of His Only Begotten Son.

Generally speaking, religions have had an overwhelming positive effect on the world.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Surely god would have known how a person would react if told not to do something that would gain them more knowledge. If god exists and created human nature, it is to blame for all that is wrong in the world.
The events in the Garden of Eden were set up so that Mankind would choose for themselves when to enter into mortality.

The fruit contained knowledge of both good and evil. We need to learn both in order to judge for ourselves and learn and grow.

Since God created everything, you'd have to admit that He is also to blame for everything that is right in the world too.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
The events in the Garden of Eden were set up so that Mankind would choose for themselves when to enter into mortality.

The fruit contained knowledge of both good and evil. We need to learn both in order to judge for ourselves and learn and grow.

Since God created everything, you'd have to admit that He is also to blame for everything that is right in the world too.

Excuses, excuses for the god, which is a complete psycho if it exists!
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Yes, He did know that Adam and Eve would eventually partake of the fruit.

The scriptures claim that the Lord Jesus Christ had been foreordained to be the Messiah "before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:18-20)

The plan that God the Father had for His children always involved the Fall of Man and the Atonement of His Only Begotten Son.

Generally speaking, religions have had an overwhelming positive effect on the world.

Doesn't seem very fair to pay for the sins of two people,still it's all supposition.

I'm really trying to see the "overwhelming positive effect" of religion anywhere,some of the most religious places and people in the world are also the worst places to live with intollerant backward people imo.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg

My question: Why not?


Everyone will get to Heaven. On the other hand, it will take many many lifetimes before one can learn enough to create or live in such an environment.

In the meantime, we steadily progress in Living our Lessons and experiencing God's Unconditional Love between lifetimes.

As I see it. Religion really has nothing to do with God nor Heaven. Religion is about Mankind. It reflects Mankind. At this level, Mankind is always going to want fry someone or keep them from Heaven. Yes, there is so much Mankind has yet to learn.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Everyone will get to Heaven. On the other hand, it will take many many lifetimes before one can learn enough to create or live in such an environment.

In the meantime, we steadily progress in Living our Lessons and experiencing God's Unconditional Love between lifetimes.

As I see it. Religion really has nothing to do with God nor Heaven. Religion is about Mankind. It reflects Mankind. At this level, Mankind is always going to want fry someone or keep them from Heaven. Yes, there is so much Mankind has yet to learn.
I am still waiting for any source that says anyone will go to heaven. It is not in the Bible. Is it somewhere else?
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Swedenborg is correct.
Correct how? Define "good lives". Currently, the radical Jihadists define it one way and the abortion doctor back-shooting, gay-hating Christians define it another way. OTOH, literally, billions of Christians, Jews and Muslims lead peaceful lives seeking to provide the best they can for their loved ones.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Correct how? Define "good lives". Currently, the radical Jihadists define it one way and the abortion doctor back-shooting, gay-hating Christians define it another way. OTOH, literally, billions of Christians, Jews and Muslims lead peaceful lives seeking to provide the best they can for their loved ones.
How close you studied Swedenborg? Gods life is one corresponding the Golden Rule principle.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
I came to understand God's purpose is improving of human consciousness, and Christ (spark of True God) is what every human have to find within self.
An alternative theory is that eternity can be boring and that "God" created the Universe and broke off pieces of itself to populate it for entertainment purposes.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
How close you studied Swedenborg? Gods life is one corresponding the Golden Rule principle.
I didn't. Does it matter? He's one of billions of human beings wondering about "Life, the Universe, and Everything"..to use a Douglas Adams' book title.

As for "Gods life", says who? I appreciate the wisdom of the Golden Rule, but why does that have to be a divine inspiration and not a totally secular one?
 

leov

Well-Known Member
I didn't. Does it matter? He's one of billions of human beings wondering about "Life, the Universe, and Everything"..to use a Douglas Adams' book title.

As for "Gods life", says who? I appreciate the wisdom of the Golden Rule, but why does that have to be a divine inspiration and not a totally secular one?
because that what God wants of us, God wants that that would come out of human hearts, be essence of a human soul, it is not now.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
because that what God wants of us, God wants that that would come out of human hearts, be essence of a human soul, it is not now.
How do you know? While that is a logical conclusion of a person who believes God is all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent, that is not evidence of God's existence nor desires.
 
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