Curious George
Veteran Member
I wasn't aware that objective had multiple meanings.
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Free will, determinism and absolute knowledge.
- Thread starter Dan From Smithville
- Start date
Curious George
Veteran Member
Because it is by definition beneficial. We are discussing an advantage of being able to buy additional stuff. This is something that you did not have before, that now you do. I don't think this can go where you want it to go.
I don't think such a thing as 'the will' or 'the soul' or or indeed anything 'immaterial' exists in reality ─ only in imagination. If it nonetheless existed, it should be detectable ─ we should observe in the working brain constant, systematic and purposeful physical phenomena with no physical cause, on too gross a scale to be quantum phenomena. But so far we've seen nothing of the kind.
And I'm not aware that any church has a program to detect such things scientifically. Arguably that points to a tacit acceptance that they're imaginary.
We have brain scan experiments that show decision making as brain function ─ you may recall a famous set of experiments in 2012 or so which showed that the nonconscious brain may make a decision and begin to act on it, sometimes up to several seconds before the conscious brain was aware that a decision had been made. We also have well-tested hypotheses as to how the brain makes various kinds of decisions.
I think the most favored theory of consciousness remains the >Global Workspace< idea, but the criticism (on that link) is interesting too.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Whose definition ? Why is being able to buy more stuff a benefit ?
Why is having something more an advantage ?
Koldo
Outstanding Member
It has. What do you mean by it ?
Curious George
Veteran Member
We are dealing with the definition of advantage here. Is there a point to your semantics? Having a discretionary ability where none existed is an advantage.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Not subjective
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Great. What do you mean by subjective ( other than 'not objective' ) ?
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Why is it an advantage ?
If you have no goals you intend to achieve, one dollar is as useful as a billion to you.
What difference does it make to have extra money ?
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
An interesting view. I don't believe science has discovered such a thing. So maybe science should err on the side of skepticism.
To my knowledge, the sorts of decisions in the experiments were prearranged and never addressed the issue of knowing whether the decision-making process was "free", but rather the lesser question of "consciousness" of will.
Interesting theory. I'm not sure the criticisms are that critical though. The GWT seems to suggest that there is more at work than meets the "spotlight". So how does this differ from an illusion or from a movie in a critical way? And a description of what consciousness is doesn't appear to be a incompatible with the GWT simply because the GWT doesn't give such a description.
Curious George
Veteran Member
That it provides no practical advantage does not mean it provides no advantage. As i have already pointed out, it is by definition an advantage.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Not sure if you think word games are going to help make your point. If you have one, i am still waiting.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
As I have said before, whose definition ?
If it is of no use to you, it is no advantage.
The problem in saying otherwise is that literally everything would be an advantage. Even not possessing a penny would be an advantage.
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Koldo
Outstanding Member
You kept using the word 'objective'. Since you have mentioned you understand it in one specific way I asked you to tell me what it is to expand on that.
Curious George
Veteran Member
If it is of no use to you is a very specific circumstance that you are trying to force. Moreover, it need not be of use to you to provide an advantage it only needs to put one in a superior position. This is not the matter of whose definition. It is a matter of fact that additional resources=additional resources. As additional resources provide a superior position relative to others without those resources there is an advantage.
Certainly, one can, with various perspectives acknowledge that various things can be both advantageous or detrimental but those are under specific circumstances. If you want to discuss those specific circumstances please feel free to lay them out. Otherwise, we have no reason to assume some special circumstance.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Why don't you share with me the multiple definitions of objective then?
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Additional resources might put you in a worse position, in an inferior position. There is no thing that is always a benefit under every circumstance. And the only granted way to know what is a benefit to you and what is not is by looking at what you want.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Without additional conditions that you are trying to force, additional resources are a benefit.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
What makes additional resources sometimes a hassle rather than a benefit ? How do you determine when that happens ?
I can say it happens when it is contrary to our goals.
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MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
If you want to know there are three hindrances to this path; thought, learning, and creation, they require new things forever, but knowledge itself can't be a new thing or it would get old and end.