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Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is wonderful. Thank you so very kindly. One follow-up question: Would you please provide the page reference in Midrash Rabbah Leviticus? I would expect there are many gems to be uncovered there in the surrounding pages.

Many blessings to you and yours wherever you roam,

When Hillel the Elder would cease from [teaching] his students, he would walk, and they would walk with him. Said his disciples to him: "Master, where are you going?" Said he to them: "I am going to do a kindness to a guest in my home." Said they to him: "Every day you have a guest?" Said he to them: "Is this poor soul not a guest in the body? Today she is here, tomorrow she is not..."

the context of this story is that Hillel would say this same thing each day ("I am going to do a kindness to a guest in my home"), as he walked with his disciples, and this is why his disciples asked "Every day you have a guest?". He had always been referring to his spirit inside his body. Perhaps he was simply going to go home to have a nap and refresh his spirit - (In early Jewish worldviews, sleep was a time of refreshment for the spirit as well as the body....)


This reference comes from Midrash Rabbah, Vayikra 34 / leviticus Rabbah 34:3

(f.y.i. "spirits/souls" are a feminine noun in both hebrew and greek and so english translations will often speak of "she" and "her" in describing the spirit inside the person regardless of the sex of the person the spirit enters into at birth or exits at death)

Good luck in your journey dybmh

Clear
φυφιτωω
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But who first made up the lie of a soul that survives death?Is it recorded anywhere in the bible?Who first made up the idea?:confused:

The idea was planted in Eden. "You surely will not die" in time, came to mean that you don't really die, but go on living, in an invisible form, in an invisible place. The demons impersonated the dead and promoted the idea....like he did with King Saul consulting a spirit medium to speak with the dead prophet, Samuel. The reason why God's law forbade any form of spiritism is because it meant dealing with the demons. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

What does it matter who took the idea and ran with it? We can all see that immortality of the soul is a common thread running through all false religion. It promotes the devil's first lie.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
1 John 3 New Century Version (NCV)
We Are God’s Children

3 The Father has loved us so much that we are called children of God. And we really are his children

Hypothetical: This Bible verse is true ...:
If we are God's children, then God is our Father
IF ( (God is immortal) AND (I am His Child) ) THEN I am immortal too
IF (Eve is God's child) THEN Eve is immortal

So the word "immortal" is already solved
In this context the word "soul" is not that important
At least we know we are not the body, nor the mind, nor the emotions

BUT we are immortal ... that is nice to know

There are two different words used in the Bible..."soul" and "spirit". They are not interchangeable. The Bible's formula is simple.....
The body + breath = a soul.

The Bible speaks of everlasting life and immortality....they are not the same.

Mortals of flesh and blood cannot be immortal because they rely on external things to keep living. Souls need air to breathe, food to fuel the body, and water to keep it hydrated. Without any of those necessities, mortals cannot continue living. Failure to provide any one of them means certain death.

Immortals, OTOH, do not need external things to keep living. In the Bible, God was originally the only immortal being in existence. He has spirit beings who occupy the same invisible realm as he does, but they are not immortal, even though they need no external life support (that we are aware of). Immortals cannot die, but in the Bible, God can destroy the lives of both humans and angels, if they transgress God's commands....they can die, which means that they are not immortal.

God can be a Father to his children without them being exactly like him. Humans are made in his image and likeness but not in a physical way. We are endowed with God's qualities and moral attributes.
Adam and his wife were created to enjoy everlasting life, which was dependent on having all life support provided. It also included a "tree of life" which God made freely available, as long as humans obeyed him.
When they chose to disobey, God barred the way to that tree of life, without which, humans would now die as a result of sin.

So your formula doesn't work with what is stated in Genesis and the rest of the Bible. You have to understand the meaning of the words that are used in order to ascertain the truth.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The idea was planted in Eden. "You surely will not die" in time, came to mean that you don't really die, but go on living, in an invisible form, in an invisible place. The demons impersonated the dead and promoted the idea....like he did with King Saul consulting a spirit medium to speak with the dead prophet, Samuel. The reason why God's law forbade any form of spiritism is because it meant dealing with the demons. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

What does it matter who took the idea and ran with it? We can all see that immortality of the soul is a common thread running through all false religion. It promotes the devil's first lie.
If I am reading these verses, and understanding them correctly, belief in the afterlife is not listed explicitly as an abomination?

I hear what you're saying about demonic forces impersonating the dead. Is their scripture that supports this?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
:facepalm: Of course.....the Bible is just a book written to confuse everyone....good grief!

There is no evidence that there ever was a Moses, but these days even considering the fundamentalists there is a belief that the Exodus may have been 500 people rather then 2 million.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Apologies. I am confused. Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife.

Can you help me with this?

Psalm is not speaking about hell, but "sheol" which is "the grave". Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10 tells us that there is no consciousness for those in sheol.

From The Complete Tanach.....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.......Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave [sheol], where you are going."

Kohelet - Ecclesiastes - Chapter 9


Psalm 115:17 TCT
"Neither will the dead praise God, nor all those who descend to the grave [sheol]."

Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 115


The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife. That idea was eventually adopted by apostate Jews in later centuries, from the Greeks and also infiltrated corrupted Christianity.

If I am reading these verses, and understanding them correctly, belief in the afterlife is not listed explicitly as an abomination?

Any effort to communicate with the dead was an "abomination". That was because it was not communication with dead people, but with wicked and deceptive spirits.

I hear what you're saying about demonic forces impersonating the dead. Is their scripture that supports this?

Yes, Saul's efforts to communicate with the dead prophet Samuel. He had been abandoned by his God because of his unfaithful disobedience and the living prophets in Israel would not communicate with him. In desperation, Saul sought out the last remaining spirit medium in the land (he was the one who ordered that they be removed at Jehovah's command) and asked the woman to bring up Samuel. If you read the account, Saul never saw or heard "Samuel" but was instructed through the medium of his appearance and words. (1 Samuel 28:3-25)

God would never communicate to his people through a means that he considered an abomination. A demon impersonating Samuel gave Saul some bad news.

When we hear of spirit mediums telling people things that only their deceased loved ones would know.....the demons know everything about everyone, and can make even their own predictions come true.

This is what I have gleaned in my many years of Bible study.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There is no evidence that there ever was a Moses, but these days even considering the fundamentalists there is a belief that the Exodus may have been 500 people rather then 2 million.

You can believe whatever you like, from whomever you like....that doesn't make a word of it true...does it? When you start putting your own spin on scripture, you can run amok and come up with all manner of nonsense. If God's word is not 100% trustworthy, then why bother with it at all?

The truth is the truth and someone's version of events is just their opinion. We will all know the truth sooner rather than later by the looks of things. I am patient.....
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So what. Is Genesis and Revelation not part of the same book?
First, both the Tanakh and the NT are anthologies put together by committees (aided by social evolution). Second, they serve two different religions, and remain two anthologies, not one. If in doubt, check with anyone who's Jewish. Third, neither is internally consistent ─ neither (let alone both) adds up to a single super-entity or clear message. Instead, exactly as you'd expect, knowing history, each book in each anthology reflects the concerns, purposes and politics of its author or authors, at different times many centuries apart, and in different places and circumstances.
You have to use one part to explain the other parts.
No, you have to work out what each says, and how it fits with earlier and later materials. As with any other ancient document, where, when, what, who and why.
There is much in Genesis, that only gets explained in the Psalms...1 Corinthians....Romans....etc., etc.
More accurately, there is a difference between the authors' outlooks and messages between those books. Each book tells you about it's author's / authors' purpose, and will state or imply an attitude to a particular situation at a particular time and place.
Using the other books is how you can arrive at an accurate understanding of it!
Only by understanding that it's a sequence across time and reflects a variety of purposes and values will you understand what it tells us ─ or more accurately, what each of the two sequences tells us, because they're from separate religions.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Psalm is not speaking about hell, but "sheol" which is "the grave". Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10 tell us that there is no consciousness for those in sheol.

From The Complete Tanach.....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.......Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave [sheol], where you are going."

Kohelet - Ecclesiastes - Chapter 9


Psalm 115:17 TCT
"Neither will the dead praise God, nor all those who descend to the grave [sheol]."

Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 115


The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife. That idea was eventually adopted by apostate Jews in later centuries, from the Greeks and also infiltrated corrupted Christianity.



Any effort to communicate with the dead was an "abomination". That was because it was not communication with dead people, but with wicked and deceptive spirits.



Yes, Saul's efforts to communicate with the dead prophet Samuel. He had been abandoned by his God because of his unfaithful disobedience and the living prophets in Israel would not communicate with him. In desperation, Saul sought out the last remaining spirit medium in the land (he was the one who ordered that they be removed at Jehovah's command) and asked the woman to bring up Samuel. If you read the account, Saul never saw or heard "Samuel" but was instructed through the medium of his appearance and words. (1 Samuel 28:3-25)

God would never communicate to his people through a means that he considered an abomination. A demon impersonating Samuel gave Saul some bad news.

When we hear of spirit mediums telling people things that only their deceased loved ones would know.....the demons know everything about everyone, and can make even their own predictions come true.

This is what I have gleaned in my many years of Bible study.
Thank you, my friend.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If I am reading these verses, and understanding them correctly, belief in the afterlife is not listed explicitly as an abomination?..............

I am wondering where in Scripture one finds belief in the ' afterlife '___________
Afterlife means: being more alive after death than before death.
Whereas, Scripture does Not teach afterlife but teaches: resurrection. That is different.
Especially Scripture teaches ' future' resurrection.
This is why the 'future tense' is used that ' there is going to be ' a resurrection as per Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
That future resurrection takes place during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
So, to me the ' afterlife teaching ' is an abomination because it is an un-scriptural teaching taught by man.
What is scriptural is Resurrection from death's deep sleep -> John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Deeje said "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife" (post #41)

dybmh replied : "Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife." (dybmh in post #52)


dybmh, Your are actually quite correct on this point. @Deeje is mistaken on this specific point.

The one thing I think you are forgetting is that Israel was basically a very unfaithful nation when it came to obedience to God's laws and sticking to his teachings through Moses. When Jesus made his appearance in the first century, the Jews were under Roman domination and very unhappy about their lot in life....but Daniel had foretold that the Jews would be dominated by Gentile nations right up until "the time of the end". Jesus called it "the appointed times of the nations" or "the Gentile Times". (Luke 21:24)

Daniel foretold the conquest of mighty Babylon by the Medo-Persians...and even the method by which this great city would topple with barely an arrow fired. Medo-Persia would then be overthrown by Greece, which was then conquered by Rome (ruling when Jesus walked the earth) but the Gentile Times would not be finished until the last ruling entity of Daniel's prophesy.....Rome was not destroyed but decayed from within....out of the ashes of Rome rose Britannia. And in the time of the end, Britain would ally with another powerful entity...the USA. This is the last ruling power of Bible prophesy.

Now, having said that, let's go back to ancient Israel.....when was the last prophet sent to Israel before Jesus?
It was over 400 years since a prophet had been sent to correct those "stiff-necked" Israelites. When Jesus came...who was he sent to? The Jewish leaders? NO! He was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

Nothing that came out of Israel during those 400 intervening years was good. By the time Jesus arrived on the scene to take up his position as Messiah, the Jews were in a very corrupted state spiritually speaking....so much so that once the 'lost sheep' were gathered, God turned to the Gentile nations to take out of them "a people for his name". (Acts of the Apostles 15:14) God abandoned Israel because their leaders were incorrigible.....they influenced their nation to murder their own Messiah. They cursed themselves and their children with Jesus' blood. (Matthew 23:37-39; Matthew 27:25)

You cannot rely on Jewish sources outside of the Hebrew scriptures to furnish your information.....it will be very distorted. The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife where a conscious part of man drifted off to some invisible spiritual destination. They saw rest (sleep) in the grave as preceding a physical resurrection at some time in the future when Messiah's Kingdom would rule the world.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I am wondering where in Scripture one finds belief in the ' afterlife '___________
Afterlife means: being more alive after death than before death.
Whereas, Scripture does Not teach afterlife but teaches: resurrection. That is different.
Especially Scripture teaches ' future' resurrection.
This is why the 'future tense' is used that ' there is going to be ' a resurrection as per Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
That future resurrection takes place during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
So, to me the ' afterlife teaching ' is an abomination because it is an un-scriptural teaching taught by man.
What is scriptural is Resurrection from death's deep sleep -> John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Perhaps I am using the wrong word, 'afterlife'. Thank you for bringing it up.

Regarding scriptural sources for the idea that a soul is immortal, specifically a soul that has become impure, I'll see what I can find.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You can believe whatever you like, from whomever you like....that doesn't make a word of it true...does it? When you start putting your own spin on scripture, you can run amok and come up with all manner of nonsense. If God's word is not 100% trustworthy, then why bother with it at all?

The truth is the truth and someone's version of events is just their opinion. We will all know the truth sooner rather than later by the looks of things. I am patient.....

Your evidence is no better.

The author of Genesis 1, probably a Hebrew scribe living in Babylon during the Babylonian Exile in the 4th century BCE, was apparently creating a new version of the old creation myth that could conform with the strict monotheism which was taking hold of Judaism at the time.

The primordial sea god

It wasn’t only the Canaanites who believed in the myth that creation began with a god vanquishing a primordial sea deity and forming the seas and the sky from its remains. The Babylonians believed in this story too, only in their case, the hero creator god was Marduk, not Baal, and the sea was not male like the Canaanite Yam, but a female goddess called Tiamat. (She may be alluded to in Genesis 1:2, where the Hebrew for what is translated as “the deep” is tehom - a Hebrew cognate of Tiamat’s name.)

This basic creation myth of a god slaying serpent-like sea monsters is not restricted to the Canaanites and the Babylonians.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
First, both the Tanakh and the NT are anthologies put together by committees (aided by social evolution). Second, they serve two different religions, and remain two anthologies, not one. If in doubt, check with anyone who's Jewish. Third, neither is internally consistent ─ neither (let alone both) adds up to a single super-entity or clear message. Instead, exactly as you'd expect, knowing history, each book in each anthology reflects the concerns, purposes and politics of its author or authors, at different times many centuries apart, and in different places and circumstances.
No, you have to work out what each says, and how it fits with earlier and later materials. As with any other ancient document, where, when, what, who and why.
More accurately, there is a difference between the authors' outlooks and messages between those books. Each book tells you about it's author's / authors' purpose, and will state or imply an attitude to a particular situation at a particular time and place.
Only by understanding that it's a sequence across time and reflects a variety of purposes and values will you understand what it tells us ─ or more accurately, what each of the two sequences tells us, because they're from separate religions.
If I was a Trinitarian, you might have a point: a different God, and all.

But, as a follower of Christ, I worship his God...the God of the Israelites, the God of the Pentateuch. Yahweh / Jehovah. The entire Bible is His Word. It’s His thoughts there, not men’s. They were simply His secretaries, writing down what He wanted..

So, the 66 books of the canon are completely harmonious. When a person perceives contradictions within it, the problem is theirs... they simply do not have an accurate understanding of its meaning. That’s when studying the ancient words and phrases becomes useful. And other methods of study.

The Bible itself, in Daniel 12, says its words ‘would be secret’, until the Final part of the Days.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
So your formula doesn't work with what is stated in Genesis and the rest of the Bible. You have to understand the meaning of the words that are used in order to ascertain the truth.
As I said, I don't identify myself with my body, mind, emotions.Then it does make sense what I said.
When one identifies oneself with body or mind, emotions one misses the point
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Your evidence is no better.

The author of Genesis 1, probably a Hebrew scribe living in Babylon during the Babylonian Exile in the 4th century BCE, was apparently creating a new version of the old creation myth that could conform with the strict monotheism which was taking hold of Judaism at the time.

LOL...who said? I am amused by these sweeping statements with nothing to back them up.

Where does this nonsense come from? If you identify as Christian and yet reject the Bible as the word of God then you just removed the foundation for your whole belief system. What kind of a "Christian" ridicules the word of God and suggests that most of it is inauthentic and that it authors never existed? Did Jesus ever do that?

It wasn’t only the Canaanites who believed in the myth that creation began with a god vanquishing a primordial sea deity and forming the seas and the sky from its remains. The Babylonians believed in this story too, only in their case, the hero creator god was Marduk, not Baal, and the sea was not male like the Canaanite Yam, but a female goddess called Tiamat. (She may be alluded to in Genesis 1:2, where the Hebrew for what is translated as “the deep” is tehom - a Hebrew cognate of Tiamat’s name.)

You do understand that the Jewish religion was horribly corrupted for a time, don't you? (and more than once) As a nation, their leaders led them into false worship and they ended up practicing all the things that God told them not to do. Do you remember Jeremiah's words to them? Read chapter 7 and see that their worship had become detestable to their God and what God warned them that he would do about them.

You write as if the Jews practiced these abominable things with God's sanction. I assure you that they had no sanction and suffered his severe penalty.

This basic creation myth of a god slaying serpent-like sea monsters is not restricted to the Canaanites and the Babylonians.

There is no creation "myth". Moses was given the Genesis account by his God. The flood 'legend' was spread far and wide because it wasn't just a legend. There is a flood story in many cultures all over the world. How would that be possible with such limited communication between nations if it wasn't a real event?

You can choose to disbelieve it all if you wish, but if the Bible is the word of God, and you devalue it in the eyes of others, expect that its author may take a dim view of your activities.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF THREE


1) THE CONCEPT OF AN AFTERLIFE FOR THE SPIRIT OF MAN

@Deeje said "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife" (post #41)

@dybmh replied : "Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife." (dybmh in post #52)

POST #56, CLEAR gave examples of the ancient Jewish belief in an afterlife (and a spirit independent from a body)

Deeje said : “The one thing I think you are forgetting is that Israel was basically a very unfaithful nation when it came to obedience to God's laws…” (Deeje, post #72)



Hi Deeje :

I am not forgetting Israels’ unfaithfulness, however it is irrelevant to the question as to whether the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife. You are looking through the lens of your own theology and not looking through the lens of historical data. For example, when you say “ You cannot rely on Jewish sources outside of the Hebrew scriptures to furnish your information. (Deeje, post #72) limiting your data stream is a very inefficient and inaccurate way to gather historical knowledge. Whether correct or incorrect, the ancient Jews most certainly DID believe in an afterlife. Your theory of ““non-existence of spirit” theory doesn’t exist in the earliest Judeo-Christian literature.

THIS is the reason your theology is unable to use a vast amount of the early Judeo-Christian texts where the ancient Judeo-Christians describe THEIR beliefs and THEIR INTERPRETATIONS of the sacred texts in their own words and in authentic historical context. Whether correct or not, you must allow that the ancient Jews and ancient Christians had their own beliefs which are different than your beliefs.


We must let the ancients and their literature speak for themselves

The vast amount of early Judeo-christian literature is incredibly important for historians since the study of the vast ancient literature of belief is one of the most efficient ways to come to greater knowledge of ancient belief. In post #56, I have already pointed out that Talmudic Rabbis taught that the spirit both exists separately from the body, and the spirit also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm. Let me give further examples.

It is very difficult to avoid applying one own biases to what we read. An early common Jewish theme is that death means rejoining one's ancestors. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and other patriarchs are described as being "gathered to their people" after death (see Gen. 25:8, 25:17, 35:29, 49:33; Deut. 42:50; 2 I. 22:20). In contrast, the wicked are "cut off from their people" (Gen. 17:14; Ex. 31:14).

While your biases may cause you to apply one interpretation to such scriptures (and my own biases will affect my interpretations), the early Judeo-Christian texts written by the early Jews and Christians themselves can tell you how the ancient Jews and Ancient Christians themselves interpreted such texts and they are not how your belief system interprets them.

For example, in Jehovah’s Witness Theory, the dead do not talk to each other after death while in the early Judeo-Christian worldviews and interpretations, the dead spirits most certainly DO speak to each other. There are MANY examples of this difference in theology. For example, in Berakoth 18b in the Talmud the question is asked : “Whence do we know that the dead converse with one another?” The Talmudic answer is given “Because it says: And the Lord said unto him: This is the land which I swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying. What is the meaning of 'saying'? The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Moses: Say to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: The oath which I swore to you I have already carried out for your descendants.”

In this example Moses is given the task, after death, to go to his people (in the world of spirits of the dead) and tell Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that God carried out his promises to their ancestors. The underlying context is that Moses WILL see his ancestors and CAN give them the message.

There are Multiple examples of the dead communicating just in Berakot folios 18 and 19 alone.

Multiple syncretic Judeo-Christian texts echo and confirm this same concept of the spirit as a separate entity from the Body and liken the spirit being place into a body (whether at birth or at the resurrection) to being clothed and death as an unclothing of the spirit. An example of this is 2 Enoch 22:8-10
“And the Lord said to Michael, “Go, and extract Enoch* from [his] earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory*. 9 And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed me and he clothed me. ...10 And I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.

This imagery of extracting a person from his garment is close to the terminology of Daniel 7:15, “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”

The same idea is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, and my breath within its sheath.” (If readers know much about hebrew you will recognize The clothes of my gloryas a transparent Hebraism)...

Philip, in his prayer before martyrdom, and evidently anticipating the heavenly condition (cf. Acts 6:15), says,Clothe me in thy glorious robe and the seal of light that ever shineth (James, ANT, p. 450),

Origen (On First Principles, 2.3.7) speaks of the best and purest spirits, who must have some kind of body, being changed according to their degree of merit into an ethereal condition

This is similar to the early descriptions where individuals are a like a pot which GOD places a spirit within.” While one can interpret this concept according to our various biases, there is no need to do so since the early Judeo-Christian literature, written by early Judeo-Christians tells us how the early Judeo-christians themselves interpreted such references.

For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2

The early Judeo-Christians had multiple, detailed textual descriptions and discussions of the nature of this spirit-body relationship. In an almost-mishnic presentation of this theme and how the spirit and body are judged, Fragment one from the babylonian Talmud (Ezekiel, fragment one, ch 2) describes this tradition as follows:

The body says, ‘The spirit sinned, for from the day it separated from me, behold, I have been lying like a silent stone in the grave.’ Also the spirit can say, ‘The body sinned, for from the day I separated from it, behold I have been flying in the air like a bird.”

Notice that the BODY is like a stone (having no spirit), but the SPIRIT has been about, traveling "like a bird".

I’ve already given the example of the spirit from the Talmud (81) but another from Sanherin 91a,b is an example where a Lame Man (The spirit within man) who cooperates with an otherwise healthy, but Blind man (which is the body) in a garden. The lame asks to ride on the back of the Blind man and together, they commit offenses. The text continues :

“What did he (the king) do? He made the lame man ride upon the blind and he judged them as one. .So the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirit and placing it in the body, he also judges them as one. For it is said, ‘He will call to the heavens from above and to the earth, so he might judge his people.’ ‘He will call to the heavens from above’ – this to the spirit. ‘And the earth so he might judge his people’ –this to the body.” Babylonia Talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b

In the Christian version of this story, the text is slightly different :

“What then does the just judge do? Realizing in what manner both had been joined, he places the lame man on the blind man and examines both under the lash. And they are unable to deny; they each convict the other. The lame man on the one hand saying to the blind man, “Did you not carry me and lead me away? And the blind man to the lame, “Did you yourself not become my eyes? In the same way the body is connected to the soul and the spirit to the body, to convict (them) of (their) common deeds. And the judgment becomes final for both body and spirit, for the works they have done whether good or evil.” Apocryphon of Ezekiel frag 1 vs 6-11;


SPIRITS OF MANKIND EXISTED APART FROM THE BODY

The early Judeo-Christian belief that the spirit which is placed within each individual existed long before birth and which exists independent of the body will exist independent of the body after the body dies. For example Jewish Zohar describes this early doctrine thusly :

At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the spirits which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

Again the point is important to make. The reason you cannot use such early Judeo-Christian texts to support your “non-existent spirit” theory is because this doctrinal interpretation did not exist in the earliest Judeo-Christian texts to any significant degree. Yet one cannot read the early Judeo-Christian narratives without coming face to face with this doctrine which underlies their early interpretations.

As another example, the Jewish Haggadah describes this same doctrine : The spirit and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the spirit so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” In this story, the soul communicates back and forth, describing reluctance to enter mortality through birth to a work that is stained in sin. Ultimately the spirit enters the sperm/infant because the world that God is ultimately preparing the spirit for is better than the world the spirit came from. In all of these examples spirits are intelligent and communicative and have will.

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In the enochian literature, the angel bids enoch, “come and i will show you the spirits of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the spirits of the righteous who have not yet been created.” after seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself enoch regarding these many souls says : the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which i have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd enoch 43:1-3)


When the prophet sedrach is about to die, the only begotten refers to this same tradition, saying : give me that which our father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (apocalypse of sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).

The many examples of how the early Judeo-Christians believed and how they interpreted their texts clarify how they would interpret the biblical text ” …the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to god who gave it.”. Such texts are in this same tradition of the return of the spirit to heaven referred to in thomas : blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom. for you are from it, and to it you will return.” (the gospel of thomas v 49), in apo ezra the tradition is the same : therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (the greek apocalypse of ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

This doctrine and its repetative pattern repeats itself many, many times in the vast amount of early Judeo-Christian literature written by the early Jews and Christians themselves. We know what they believed because they tell us. And they did not believe the same as you do. This is not to say they were right and you were wrong. That is a different point. The point is, that their beliefs were different. And it is clear that they believed in a spirit that existed independent from the body.

We could continue with example upon example ad nauseum that confirm this ancient Judeo-Christian belief.

In the early christian text clementine recognitions, the apostle peter repeats the same tradition as the zohar (at the time that the holy one, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men…) in the very same context (almost the same words as the zohar) in explaining to clement that " that "this world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (clement-recognitions)

This is an ancient Judeo-CHRISTIAN doctrine.

The sethian literature refers to heaven as the “home” of our spirits, which we then left and came into this world into bodies : after we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, …” (the second treatise of the great


AFTER DEATH, THE SPIRIT LEFT THE BODY AND WENT TO A WORLD OF SPIRITS (HADES/SHEOL/DEATH/THE GRAVE/WORLD OF SPIRITS/SPIRIT WORLD, etc. – whatever you want to call it)



1) HADES AS “THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”

It’s always been apparent to historians that Hades often means the place between death and judgment/resurrection. However, her suggestion that references to hades ALWAYS means this “place in the middle” and never is associated with the principle of the final punishment of those who do evil is new to me. Regardless of the fact that I've not heard this before, it raises some interesting contextual points historically.

Early Judeo-christian textual descriptions of Christian belief are often disorienting for individuals who start to study them, partly because there are so many terms that are used for the same principle. For example, descriptions of the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment is described by many terms in early texts.

Both texts and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion in terms. For example, instead of Hades, other terms have also been used to describe this same place in different contexts.

The description thatparadise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. (i.e. it refers to the gardens OUTSIDE of the kings castle, and not inside his dwelling). The different terms for the same place or principle create confusing contexts and interpretations.

For example, this ancient meaning of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that he would be with me in paradise (luke 23:43). In this context, It was not “heaven” Dymas the thief was promised, but it was “paradise”, which, in this case was also the place between corruptible mortality and judgement.

In a similar context, it was said, Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle. (The gospel of Phillip) All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. (or whatever other term a text or person uses)

The “complainerEzra also uses the same term when he remarks to Jesus in a vision, regarding the end of his (the prophet Ezras’) life : Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1). The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he himself had been there as well : Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4).

This refers to Jesus descensus as a spirit into this middle place while his body remained in the tomb before resurrection. But more on this later.



2) ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)

In this ancient Christian theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs and prophets, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote : “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)


“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .

“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15) Though the english translater uses the word, "paradise", it is this place in the middle that he is actually referring to.


3) CONDITIONS IN HADES VARY ACCORDING TO THE MORAL CHARACTER OF THE PERSON WHO INHABITS IT

Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. For the righteous, it was pleasant, for those who were evil, it was a prison of sorts. This partly explains it's association with punishment....

Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). Since the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage of sorts, was often referred to as a "prison" in early textual references.


In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown in his vision that this middle place has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : ”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)

Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.

In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)

The point is that for the righteous, the spirits are cognisant and communicative and this world of spirits was not particularly unpleasant but for the unrighteous it was a place of some distress. It is this variable nature of Hades which allows it to acquire multiple names such as "paradise" AND "prison".

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4) SOULS IN HADES WERE COGNISANT AND COMMUNICATIVE AND KEPT THEIR OWN IDENTITY AND PERSONALITIES

In this early Christian doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they were cognizant and communicate and still had free will.

For example : Enoch, in his vision of Hades/Sheol, describes those there who are still teaching moral law to others :Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)



5) THE DESCENT OF JESUS CHRIST INTO HADES
The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.

For example, One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the resurrected Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children. (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)


The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there.

For example, Matthew 27:52 observes that after Jesus resurrected, the graves of many of the saints opened and the bodies of many individuals who had died were also resurrected with Jesus and these individuals went to Jerusalem and appeared to many others. IF something like this happened, one would expect diaries and literature that both reported and described it. Thus, early christian literature describes this happening and conditions in hades as well.

Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :

Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke. (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the other souls the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world. These spirits are cognisant and communicative.

The story continues : Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.

Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen. Anyone who heard this preaching could both understand it and accept or reject it.

As added confusion, the angel who is presiding over hades in it's context of a holding place from which the are taken, one angel presiding over hades in it's context as "prison" is actually called Hades.

In chapter four, Satan adjures "Hades" to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.

The sons of Symeon, speaking of Jesus, continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “

Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)


Obviously, there is a vast genre of early judeo-christian literature that describes their traditions concerning spirits in hades as the place after death and before resurrection / judgment, and that this place was described, using multiple terms besides hades. In the ancient Judeo-Christian literature it is quite obvious that the spirits of mankind are alive and cognisant and communicative in this world of spirits. This does not mean that the earliest Christians were correct on all things, merely that this was their belief and they interpreted the early sacred text in the context of their beliefs. Deejes religious beliefs are different than theirs, thus these texts will not support Deejes' religious models.

In any case, I hope it is clear that the Jews and the Christians DID believe in an afterlife (i.e. a cognisant, communicative world of "life" after death).

Clear
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