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Who will get to heaven?
- Thread starter Jeremiah Ames
- Start date
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
To me it would be more accurate to reword the last sentence to say,
"Likewise, a person can [commit sin] and not be wicked."
A "wicked deed" would imply an evil motive, which would make a person wicked.
Not if you believe what is recorded.
According to the Genesis account, before Adam and Eve partook of the fruit they had no knowledge of good and evil.
It would be impossible for them to perform any righteousness or wickedness without that knowledge.
Where does the record claim that Adam or Eve no longer believed in the truth or that they selected another god?
The Genesis account claims that Eve decided to partake of the fruit because the tree was desired "to make one wise" (Genesis 3:6), not because she no longer believed in the truth or that God was false.
It also records that Adam hid from God due to being naked and afraid (Genesis 3:10) which shows that he still believed that God was to be feared. He didn't hide from the serpent, only God.
And the reason Adam gave to God for his partaking of the fruit was to keep God's other commandment to remain with Eve in order to multiple and replenish the Earth. (Genesis 1:28;3:12)
So, when Eve partook of the fruit and offered it to Adam he was placed in the situation of choosing which of the two commandments given him to keep.
All he knew was that any who partook of the fruit would "surely die", so he decided to partake of it to remain with her regardless of the outcome.
That sounds honorable and brave to me.
Also, because he was the patriarch of his little family, Adam was responsible for Eve's actions.
Not if you had no knowledge of good and evil.
I disagree completely.
They did? Where is that written?
How could they know about him without having a knowledge of good and evil?
I do not believe they knew what had happened to Lucifer at that time and even if it were to be explained to them they would not have been able to comprehend it.
They had literally zero knowledge/understanding concerning good and evil. Right and wrong. Vice and virtue.
You do have a knowledge of Good and Evil though.
It is hard for us to relate to Adam and Eve before they partook of the fruit because we know they had knowledge and comprehension of some things. They could communicate and stuff.
But when it comes to any knowledge or experience with those things good and evil...they had nothing. Nothing.
I understand that this is so alien to us because we have always been moral creatures, but they literally had no knowledge of good and evil.
The Genesis account does not record that Adam and Eve knew that partaking of the fruit would cause them to be separated from God.
All they knew was that they would "surely die" if they partook of it. Did they truly understand what death was?
If, however, they did know that it would cause their expulsion from the Garden, then Adam would have gone against God's commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth if he had not also partaken of the fruit.
He also would have contradicted God's own statement that, "It is not good that the man should be alone..." (Genesis 2:18)
The account also does not record that Adam and Eve knew anything about Satan and his fall from grace and I believe that without the knowledge of good and evil they would not have been able to understand it had they known.
Yes. God's plan for His children relied on Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit and entering into mortality.
I felt that it was important to mention that there is no "Original Sin" that all of Mankind is responsible for when discussing "who will get to heaven".
Yes, we are under the curse of the Fall, but God's goal for us has always been to work through the difficulties of mortality and return to Him.
He always intended for us to become as He is and suffering through mortality is part of the process of making us like God.
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Prestor John
Well-Known Member
Why?
Samana Johann
Restricted by request
Don't say so householder Amanaki, don't say so. Not only recollecting the Buddha, but also to recollect Gods and Devas lead to heavenly existence (yet such is of cause not lasting, but enormous longer then a human, easy perceived as "ever" therefore.)
"Only" by recollecting a sublime being one sets causes for heavenly reappearing. There is not at all any reason why for example people believing in God would not actually be delivered there.
And in no different to the Dhamma, refuge is the primarily condition.
But even if doing such, if at the time of break up of the body one holds wrong view, hell would be his destiny.
Also this is not right, not what the Buddha taught. Awakening requires to let go of all kinds of existence and non-existence. Form, formless...
One who penetrates sensuality and it's lure, e.g. the world, is bond to fine material existences.
It would be good if householder, when approaching, saying "I am a Buddhist" would inform himself fist rightly as it is of a lot of demerits to misinterpret the Buddha and his teaching. leads to long harm for householder and long harm for many, a highway to hell, so to speak.
Neither does it lead to heaven nor to Awakening to speak of what is not right.
The only individual who is no more able to return into a womb is a No-Returner, Anāgāmī.
I don't know... let me ask you a question. Was King David's murder of the husband of Bathsheba and committing adultery evil wicked deeds?
Did God call King David "Friend"?
So, apparently, I'm not so off.
However, Satan is called, "The Wicked One"
- In that they selected The Serpents voice over God's, they exchanged gods. That is why the god of this world is Satan
- No... Eve was deceived.
- Never said Adam completely left believing in God. Fear is what Satan uses so Adam is now under the influence of Satan. Perfect love (God) casts out all fear
- Hardly. Adam disobeyed. Fruitfulness was already in his power
- Hardly. When Eve partook, he had the choice either to cast the Serpent out (for he had authority) or disobey God.
- Yes, he partook. That's like saying "Since my wife is going to rob a bank and go to jail, I guess I will do it to"
- So, I call it foolishness.
- Yes
But he did
And you know this how?
Yes they did. The word for "die" is plural in the Hebrew and I doubt that God didn't explain what it meant. They statements after are based on your own interpretation.
No.
Yes... He always wants us to return to Him.
Because it is not credible, just a silly tale.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I was in Heaven after my previous life which had some terrible things happen in it, so that I wished to be free from evil for a while.
I only remember a little. I remember walking through a field of flowers. The rest came to me in a dream. I met my wife there and fell in love with her.
I died, shot in the back by a soldier. I don't remember the afterlife process.
As I stated before it was a dream but having Jesus as Lord and Savior means that I am more in contact with my own spirit so that is where the field of flowers came from and knowledge of my previous death.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I suppose you know this because you know where to look to see that it isn't there,right?
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe theere is no-one who leads a good life as Jesus said there is no-one good but God.
Of course I know that. In the same way I know there is no blue fairy.
Are you agnostic about the blue fairy, by any chance?
Ciao
- viole
What is good about the Biblical god, the deeds attributed to it are evil in the extreme?
So nobody goes to heaven then,seems like a lot of people are waisting their time if they are trying their best to be good because of religion for a ticket to heaven,it's not a problem for the non religious of course.
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
How is it not credible?
Yes, once Adam sinned No one could live past a thousand-year day.
But a one-hundered year old person would Not behave like a 7 or 8 year old child.
I think Cain married after he murdered his brother.
So, whose to say if Abel lived he also would have then married if he already wasn't married.
Just a thought...
I find there is only one condition of existence in the ' spirit world ' (heaven) - Revelation 20:6
Those resurrected to 'spirit life' (heaven) are granted immortality in the heavens.
To me, Paradise directly correlates to the paradisical Garden of Eden right here on Earth.
Thus, when Jesus said that humble meek people will inherit the Earth he was referring to Earth.- Psalms 37:9-11.
Plus, there is a coming final judgement for the living people on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40
As for most of the dead (Romans 6:23,7) what they do 'after' they have a healthy physical resurrection back to live life on Earth is what will determine their final judgement after resurrection.
A favorable judgement is to everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was.
Or, an adverse judgement that ends in that symbolic ' second death ' as found at Revelation 21:8.
Sinner Satan ends up in ' second death ' for Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 b.
Thus, this is why Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be: destroyed forever.
Before Jesus came as Messiah No one was offered heaven - John 3:13
Even King David did Not ascend - Acts of the Apostles 2:34
Mankind's hope was to be resurrected back to healthy physical life right here on Earth.
Jesus only offered heaven (spirit life) to people like those of Luke 22:28-30.
Thus, I find the majority of mankind is offered: everlasting life on Earth.
This everlasting life on Earth will begin at the coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Those living people can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 and see calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
Thus, they can be here on Earth to welcome back those who will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection with the opportunity to live forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.
Seems to me Mr. Swedenborg never read the Bible.
The nature of heaven is to provide a place for people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 2:10; 5:9-10; 20:6.
People who died before Jesus died can be resurrected back to healthy physical life on Earth.
This is why Acts of the Apostles 2:34 informs us that even King David did Not ascend.
Even living people alive on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separating ' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37
can remain alive on Earth and live to see the start of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth as king of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
They have the prospect of gaining everlasting life right here on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.
Samana Johann
Restricted by request
On "who will get to heaven?":
One who has right view and conducts in line of it, this are causes for reapearing in heavenly realms and even beyond.
One who develops Jhana (concentration), developing Jhana causes reapearing in heavenly realms.
One who has right view and conducts in line of it, this are causes for reapearing in heavenly realms and even beyond.
One who develops Jhana (concentration), developing Jhana causes reapearing in heavenly realms.
All seems a bit convoluted to me.
Good lives - Is this based on a goodly percentage or does one have to score 100%? I used to get an average of about 80% when younger (last set of exams taken), but for one subject (life), and with a bit more swotting, I suppose I could do better - unless past mistakes erase any chance - and in that case why would I even bother trying?
