Lies and Phony Caricatures of Christianity

sojourner · Jun 7, 2019

usfan said:
So you assume & assert, without evidence. This is not an historical view, based on evidence, but a speculation and conjecture, in the face of all evidence to the contrary

No, cultural anthropology tells us a lot about the habits and life of ancient people, based on what we find in the archaeological record. What we know is that the culture of ancient Palestine was largely oral, and that scribes were employed. Most people had no need to know how to read or write. We know this based on evidence. This is an historical perspective. Some of Jesus followers may have been literate, but none of them would have had access to the very expensive writing materials it would have taken at that time and in that place to write such narratives. IF — and this is a huge “if” — the apostles produced the gospels, they would have told the stories, not written them. Scholars reason that the stories read as if they were told and not written.

Further, because of evidence brought to light through textual exegesis, we have a very good idea of the dates of writing. The dates are all later than would be feasible for the age of the apostles.

I don’t know what you’re looking for as evidence, but the very best minds have employed the very best techniques, and this is what they have discovered — church legend notwithstanding.

sojourner · Jun 7, 2019

usfan said:
I expect it, in this world of increasing intolerance and progressive Indoctrination.

This right here shows your bias. You’re not interested in truth or evidence. You’re interested in quashing the perceived “Evil Progressive Menace.”

It’s not working, because the preponderance of biblical and theological scholarship isn’t interested in ideology; it’s interested in facts and reasonable speculation.

usfan said:
You (the 'we' you refer to), have not offered evidence, just assertions and speculations. I can only dismiss those as prejudicial. I have consistentl refuted and exposed most of the unbased charges of 'error!'

See above. “Error” apparently consists of “Stuff Usfan Doesn’t Believe In and Doesn’t Match the ‘Appropriate’ Ideology.”

oldbadger · Jun 7, 2019

Augustus said:
Paul was writing letters to communities of believers that already existed regarding issues that affected them. He wasn't writing a basic biography of Jesus and introduction to his teachings for people to read thousands of years later and judge how much he knew about Jesus.

In his letters to churches Paul focused upon several hundred guidances, rules and laws, but not one anecdote about any one amazing speech of act of Jesus.

He never said anything like, for instance, 'About ------------, see what Jesus did... or said' or anything like that.

Do you think Paul assumed they knew the whole Jesus story? He certainly didn't assume that they knew the whole Jesus message.

If you send an email to the IT guy at work regarding an occasional connectivity problem, he doesn't respond with an explanation of what the internet is, its historical evolution and how networks function, he tells you how to solve the problem. If a future person discovered this email, it wouldn't be correct to assume he knew nothing of these things simply because he didn't mention them.

Analogies like that are really dodgy imo.

Paul needed to chant off hundreds of laws to these all-knowing churches without once mentioning what Jesus had suggested, or ordered, or done.

It's like in the Quran, there are references to numerous Biblical narratives, yet these are not explained as it is assumed the audience is already familiar with them.

I don't think so......... if, like the Quran, Paul had referred to numerous 'Jesus incidents', that would be credible,

sojourner · Jun 7, 2019

usfan said:
The competing ideology is progressive ideology, which has become the unofficial State Religion, and has been indoctrinated for decades, as the exclusive worldview.

Once again, it’s obvious your real concern is defeating progressivism, even though progressivism is not the “Evil Empire.”

Fear will make a person react in odd ways. Your posts offer evidence of such odd reactionism.

Jesus said, “Do not be afraid...” Do you believe him?

oldbadger · Jun 7, 2019

sooda said:
The Roman legions of Vespasian were stationed in Syria … only a few Roman soldiers were in Jerusalem.

How many soldiers were stationed at Caesarea?
How many soldiers were stationed in the Antonian fortress?

I accept that there were no Roman troops in Galilee, Perea, Northern provinces because the brothers and sister Herod were controlling those, but the Prefect of Idumea, samaria and Judea needed a controlling force.

oldbadger · Jun 7, 2019

sooda said:
It has always seemed to me that Paul's epiphany on the road to Damascus was the realization of the political power available to someone like himself. He was under 30.. The vision is dated to the mid to late 30s AD.

Absolutely!
He had a blinding idea, realising that this revolutionary ideal could be turned around in to a huge massive super powerful controlling force with more leverage even than the threat of crucifixion. Crucifixion was just three days of hellfire. Christianity threatened agony 'for ever;.

sooda · Jun 7, 2019

usfan said:
1. These are narratives, or generalities, that i (and many others) have heard, personally, to smear and demean xtianity.
2.15 is a smear by proxy, attempting to correlate Christianity with the acts of Hitler.
3. "13. The bible is full of errors.", is a false narrative, and has been repeated loudly in this thread, with only assertions, and beliefs, not FACTS, to support that opinion.
4. This list is my own, but is nothing new or startling among those who defend Christianity from its detractors.
5. The competing ideology is progressive ideology, which has become the unofficial State Religion, and has been indoctrinated for decades, as the exclusive worldview.
6. "Some, therefore all!" is a common fallacy used to disparage xtianity. The intent is to correlate 'Christianity!', with any and all absurd caricatures, from the most extreme outliers. The 'Hitler!', Reductio ad Nazium is a common example.

Hitler claimed he was a Christian .. baptized and confirmed as a Catholic .. I agree that he was no "true Christian".. Same holds true for the people who slaughtered the Cathars and the Templars.. and the whitch burners.. Same for the people who slaughtered the Aztecs and the American Indians.. Same for the slavers and plantation owners.

You need to up your game... or you can just claim that all Muslim terrorists are "true Muslims".

oldbadger · Jun 7, 2019

usfan said:
Paul said he would...
But would i sacrifice my eternal soul for others?
1. That is not an option, as far as i can see.

Paul certainly had no intentions like that.
And I've never spoken with a Christian who would give up their place in heaven.
It's the bottom line ....... all about the self.

All I've asked for is this:
1. Make your charge.
2. Support it.
3. It can then be examined, and a rebuttal offered.

Your rebuttals either don't happen or they are gung-ho rhetoric, I'm afraid.

No answer for slavery.
No answer for individual sexual freedom.
No answer for Death Penalty.
No answer for killing and guns.
No answers for anything apart from not wantring to give up your place in Heaven.

sooda · Jun 7, 2019

oldbadger said:
How many soldiers were stationed at Caesarea?
How many soldiers were stationed in the Antonian fortress?

I accept that there were no Roman troops in Galilee, Perea, Northern provinces because the brothers and sister Herod were controlling those, but the Prefect of Idumea, samaria and Judea needed a controlling force.

I have seen the numbers but who knows how reliable they are... The Roman soldiers housed in the Fortress Antonia in Jerusalem were basically a skeleton crew.. Most of the Roman garrisons were stationed in Syria... and its important to remember that Egyptians, Arabs and Syrian troops fought under Vespasian and Titus command.

They were part of the Roman Empire and Roman citizens... like Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen from southern Turkey.. You should plug that in when you read Revelation or Isaiah or Daniel.

oldbadger · Jun 7, 2019

sojourner said:
Paul would have heard the stories — not as gospels, but just as stories. His job in writing his letters wasn’t to tell stories, though. Paul wasn’t writing gospels, so he had no need to include the stories.

But I am still questioning why he never offered any incident or words of Jesus as an example of how churches should proceed. Maybe he thought that Jesus's mission had been expanded upon and anecdotes would be unhelpful? Either way, in ignorance or in evasion, not so good.

Well, Paul was the main apostle to the Gentiles in the beginning. His job was to take The church from a Judaic sect to a broader spectrum of spirituality.

Yes! And that was nothing to do with either the Baptist's or Jesus's missions. Both were pushing a campaign for their own. imo.

sooda · Jun 7, 2019

oldbadger said:
But I am still questioning why he never offered any incident or words of Jesus as an example of how churches should proceed. Maybe he thought that Jesus's mission had been expanded upon and anecdotes would be unhelpful? Either way, in ignorance or in evasion, not so good.

Yes! And that was nothing to do with either the Baptist's or Jesus's missions. Both were pushing a campaign for their own. imo.

You've lost sight of the basics. Jesus lived and died a Jew. He had no intention of starting a new religion.

Spartan · Jun 7, 2019

sojourner said:
Most reputable scholars — certainly the ones tapped to work on biblical translations — don’t believe so. Most bibles separate the questionable material, including only as “a later addition” and “a shorter ending.” This is because, when the added material is exegeted in context of the rest of Mark’s story, it does not jibe.

Mark confirms the resurrection of Jesus. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Spartan · Jun 7, 2019

SkepticThinker said:
Bible scholars have done the homework and most agree with what I said. Where do you think I got it from? My own Bible says right in it that the Gospel writers are unknown.

Well, here's help for you and those who think like you:

Who Wrote the Gospels? Internal and External Arguments for Traditional Authorship

Spartan · Jun 7, 2019

sojourner said:
They aren’t facts; they’re opinions. Zachariahs may be “brilliant,” but he's biased, because he’s an apologist and not an exegete. People like Rhoads, Kloppenborg, Scott, Funk and Harris know more about the ancient texts than any apologist. Apologists get their information from these people.

That's nonsense. And that's YOUR BIAS.

sooda · Jun 7, 2019

Spartan said:
Mark confirms the resurrection of Jesus. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Mark was a disciple of Peter. He may not have ever met Jesus.

Spartan · Jun 7, 2019

oldbadger said:
Not true.
Stone rolled away. Tomb empty. Jesus alive and gone.

"You are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified: he has risen, he is not here." - Mark 16:6

oldbadger said:
I don't think that Jesus died. Crucifixion was a death lasting 2-3 days of agony. For an earlier deeath they broke the convicts legs so that he could not push up to breath.
Not only did they NOT do that but they lanced Jesus's lower lung to clear it of fluids. They did that to me in 2016 so I am aware about that.

That's the tired old Swoon Theory, which has been highly discredited.

"44 Pilate, astonished that he should have died so soon, summoned the centurion and inquired if he had been dead for some time. 45 Having been assured of this by the centurion, he granted the corpse to Joseph." - Mark 16

oldbadger said:
The Resurrection is not certain, which is why there are thousands of Christian FAITHS.

All four Gospels and various epistles confirm the resurrection. That beats what you have from history.

Spartan · Jun 7, 2019

sooda said:
Mark was a disciple of Peter. He may not have ever met Jesus.

He sure knew Peter.

Wandering Monk · Jun 7, 2019

I have heard that writers each have a unique style, syntax, vocabulary, and word usage. There are computer programs that can sort out different authors by their style. It would be interesting to apply this to the Bible books. It wouldn't give us the NAMES of the authors, but it could tell us if books were written by more than one author, whether they were edited, and if they wrote more than one book or passage in the Bible.

Augustus · Jun 7, 2019

oldbadger said:
In his letters to churches Paul focused upon several hundred guidances, rules and laws, but not one anecdote about any one amazing speech of act of Jesus.

He never said anything like, for instance, 'About ------------, see what Jesus did... or said' or anything like that.

Do you think Paul assumed they knew the whole Jesus story? He certainly didn't assume that they knew the whole Jesus message.

Analogies like that are really dodgy imo.

Paul needed to chant off hundreds of laws to these all-knowing churches without once mentioning what Jesus had suggested, or ordered, or done.

I don't think so......... if, like the Quran, Paul had referred to numerous 'Jesus incidents', that would be credible,

The problem with this line of thought is that it is basically criticising someone because they didn't write in the way you would have liked them to have written.

You have created an arbitrary standard that he should have met, then drawn conclusions about his intentions and motives based on the fact he didn't meet your arbitrary expectations of what he should have deemed most important to include in his letters.

In addition, many of these arbitrary expectations are based on your understanding of how Christianity developed in the time after Paul lived, based on how people who lived over the following centuries reified the movement into the religion we now know as Christianity.

SkepticThinker · Jun 7, 2019

Spartan said:
Well, here's help for you and those who think like you:

Who Wrote the Gospels? Internal and External Arguments for Traditional Authorship

You've already posted this to me before, to which I pointed out that apologetics don't seem to cut it, or the vast majority of scholars would agree.

Why do you think my Bible says that the authors are unknown?

Lies and Phony Caricatures of Christianity

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