The Arrogance of Both Science and Religion

joelr · Jun 7, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Jesus did not ascend to Godhood, He descended, God eternally, to this world, to redeem it. The Bible is specific that He LOST from the process of coming to Earth--for our sake.

Lot of gods did, Inanna is the first we know of

"Inanna is the earliest known resurrected god. For her, a clear-cut death-and-resurrection tale exists on clay tablets inscribed in Sumeria over a thousand years before Christianity, plainly describing her humiliation, trial, execution, and crucifixion, and her resurrection three days later. After she is stripped naked and judgment is pronounced against her, Inanna is “turned into a corpse” and “the corpse was hung from a nail” and “after three days and three nights” her assistants ask for her corpse and resurrect her (by feeding her the “water” and “food” of life), and “Inanna arose” according to what had been her plan all along, because she knew her father “would surely bring me back to life,” exactly as transpires in the story (quotations are from the tablets, adapting the translation of Samuel Noah Kramer in History Begins at Sumer).

This cult continued to be practiced into the Christian period, Tyre being a major center of her worship. By then, there is some evidence her resurrection tale was shifted to her consort Tammuz, one of several resurrected deities the Greeks called Adonis."

Darkstorn · Jun 7, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
I'm sorry I was rude. I would never intentionally be rude to you--Jesus loves us both and died to give us both eternal life IMHO.

Thanks for accepting my apology.

I'm not the one you should be apologizing to. Maybe if you paid half as much attention into reading others' posts as you did to your own... This would be a very different place.

Polymath257 · Jun 7, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Let's see if we can find agreement. I believe free will exists, if you believe it exists, do you enjoy the exercise of it?

I actually don't know even what it means to have 'free will' or how it could be consistent with physics. At the very least, we have the subjective feeling of free will.

Enjoy it? I'm not sure it is a thing to be 'enjoyed'. I make decisions and take the consequences.

Is the propensity to disobey conscience (what Christians call sin and skeptics call the propensity to disobey conscience) a strong or weak urge in people?

I guess it depends on the person. Some people have a less developed sense of conscience and others have more of one.

Have you allowed people you love, especially people of less moral fiber or less intelligence/experience than you (like me with my children) go through hardships to learn from their mistakes? And if so, did you pre-plan their restoration and redemption? Did you watch carefully, to broker a successful outcome?

Only with my daughter and only when I knew it would not hurt her in the long run. And no, I did not 'pre-plan for a redemption'. i did discuss it with her afterwards (and warned her before) so she could learn from the experience.

If the cross divided humanity into those who choose Heaven and those who choose Hell, would free will be an honest, just way of sorting people per their desires? Should God put people who earnestly desire Heaven into Hell? Should God make people who don't want to be with Him and who reject His presence and His followers into Heaven, to suffer there, much like they would suffer in Hell?

One big IF there. And no, unless the conditions could be independently verified, it would NOT be just or honest. It would be forcing a decision based on insufficient evidence when it is possible to give the full evidence.

And, if Hell is simply 'separation from God', then sure. If Hell is 'eternal torture', then no.

Can you think of three of four other reasons why Jesus might have planned to be crucified, even before Adam was created, as the Bible explains?

And be just in doing so? no. It seems like a charade made by the deity. Remember that God/Jesus made up all the rules. So, God decided what would and what would not be harmful to people. God decided what would be the punishment and what would be forgiven. And, to excuse the violations people made to that decision, he had himself temporarily killed.

Doesn't that seem even a tad silly to you?

BilliardsBall · Jun 7, 2019

joelr said:
Lot of gods did, Inanna is the first we know of

"Inanna is the earliest known resurrected god. For her, a clear-cut death-and-resurrection tale exists on clay tablets inscribed in Sumeria over a thousand years before Christianity, plainly describing her humiliation, trial, execution, and crucifixion, and her resurrection three days later. After she is stripped naked and judgment is pronounced against her, Inanna is “turned into a corpse” and “the corpse was hung from a nail” and “after three days and three nights” her assistants ask for her corpse and resurrect her (by feeding her the “water” and “food” of life), and “Inanna arose” according to what had been her plan all along, because she knew her father “would surely bring me back to life,” exactly as transpires in the story (quotations are from the tablets, adapting the translation of Samuel Noah Kramer in History Begins at Sumer).

This cult continued to be practiced into the Christian period, Tyre being a major center of her worship. By then, there is some evidence her resurrection tale was shifted to her consort Tammuz, one of several resurrected deities the Greeks called Adonis."

Thanks for providing this detailed information--and the word definition of "syncretism" in your prior post. It was so helpful, as I never came across these concepts while completing my Religion Bachelor's at a secular university (rolls eyes).

You keep isolating Judaism, Christianity and the ANE as having very unique, fixed concepts--universally, however, in modern and ancient times alike, people all over talk about, think about and attempt to atone for, sin, except for a few skeptics, and those mostly on forums. Even your repeated assaults on the faith--like many arrows shot into the wrong field, let alone at a given target in the other field--show that you seem to be trying to atone for something.

Stop atoning for my (presumed) sins of ignorance.

BilliardsBall · Jun 7, 2019

Darkstorn said:
I'm not the one you should be apologizing to. Maybe if you paid half as much attention into reading others' posts as you did to your own... This would be a very different place.

Maybe, but I doubt it, since skeptics collect like flies on feces wherever good Christians post online.

BilliardsBall · Jun 7, 2019

Polymath257 said:
I actually don't know even what it means to have 'free will' or how it could be consistent with physics. At the very least, we have the subjective feeling of free will.

Enjoy it? I'm not sure it is a thing to be 'enjoyed'. I make decisions and take the consequences.

I guess it depends on the person. Some people have a less developed sense of conscience and others have more of one.

Only with my daughter and only when I knew it would not hurt her in the long run. And no, I did not 'pre-plan for a redemption'. i did discuss it with her afterwards (and warned her before) so she could learn from the experience.

One big IF there. And no, unless the conditions could be independently verified, it would NOT be just or honest. It would be forcing a decision based on insufficient evidence when it is possible to give the full evidence.

And, if Hell is simply 'separation from God', then sure. If Hell is 'eternal torture', then no.

And be just in doing so? no. It seems like a charade made by the deity. Remember that God/Jesus made up all the rules. So, God decided what would and what would not be harmful to people. God decided what would be the punishment and what would be forgiven. And, to excuse the violations people made to that decision, he had himself temporarily killed.

Doesn't that seem even a tad silly to you?

Luckily we DO agree, then, just like you told your daughter before and after, God prepared His people for Messiah then they wrote a NT. And over one dozen eyewitness writers spoke of the non-silliness of what they saw and heard from Jesus, in person.

Glad we agree.

We also agree that people in Hell are separated from God, and not tortured forever (except for the obvious regret from having exercised their free will so poorly, as to reject the Savior.

BilliardsBall · Jun 7, 2019

sooda said:
I already did.. pages and pages ago with a link. I'm not doing it again.

That's great--so neither of us have to waste more time.

BilliardsBall · Jun 7, 2019

viole said:
Well, I actually said that it was extraordinary (however lame) if the resurrection took place.

But I think I will withdraw that too. Wasn’t His resurrection preceded by the resurrection of a multitude of saints, who literally came out of their graves? It should be in the same book with all the other stories.

So, it was ordinary and lame, after all.

Ciao

- viole

No, it was post-ceded. Speaking of getting things in the right order, you should:

1) Read the Bible (again)
2) Know what it says
3) Argue for or against AFTER you know what it says

Right now, you are every day making my case that post-Christian, bitter atheists neither listen to anyone but themselves nor know what the Bible ACTUALLY says, despite their many, many protests of its (supposed) contents.

I love you, man, but you needed this rebuke IMHO.

Darkstorn · Jun 7, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Maybe, but I doubt it, since skeptics collect like flies on feces wherever good Christians post online.

It's all in the post you quoted. You should have apologized to Polymath. This post doesn't exactly give me a "good Christian" vibe. You're imagining oppression when you're the one who lectures people and arguably tries to oppress them and they defend themselves.

But i can totally see why you would see your own attack as an act of love and others' defence as an attack. Good luck with that, i'm done with your delusion.

You're both self-justifying and self-righteous. Horrendous.

BilliardsBall · Jun 7, 2019

ImmortalFlame said:
So, did you just forget the whole part where Jesus came back to life and then ascended to heaven?

Hey, I'm not the one who apparently believes Jesus didn't come back to life. That's you.

... Says the guy who forgot that the Bible claims Jesus rose from the dead.

Know, you've missed Bible 101--since you are focused on "dead three days" and missed what Jesus gave up/lost for 30-plus years prior. "Who has descended?" is the Bible's prophetic question and not just "Who has ascended?"

I cannot legitimately demolish your Bible arguments until you do some basic Bible study. Please help me make it more concrete to demolish your arguments. Thanks.

ImmortalFlame · Jun 7, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Know, you've missed Bible 101--since you are focused on "dead three days" and missed what Jesus gave up/lost for 30-plus years prior. "Who has descended?" is the Bible's prophetic question and not just "Who has ascended?"

So you're completely ignoring the resurrection?

BilliardsBall said:
I cannot legitimately demolish your Bible arguments until you do some basic Bible study. Please help me make it more concrete to demolish your arguments. Thanks.

Once again, you're COMPLETELY IGNORING Jesus' resurrection? Seriously?

Audie · Jun 7, 2019

blü 2 said:
Roe v, Wade gives the fetus more rights, the closer it gets to becoming an independent sentient life. Meanwhile it gives the woman choice.

You want to take away the right of choice ─ that breeding cow mentality again.

As a potential "breeding cow" I am very happy
that in today's society I do have freedom and
choice.

In another day, I'd have had six kids, three
would be dead, and I'd be more than a little
shopworn.

The way I see the abortion thing, it is a poor
and tragic necessity in an age that is not
that much advanced over the one I just
described.

As a matter of ideals, society should work
as fast as it can away from abortion ever
being necessary or desirable.

Audie · Jun 7, 2019

viole said:
So, He did not really die for our sins. He got tortured for our sins, right?

And again, there are humans that probably went through much bigger ordeals than that without a big daddy in heaven.

Anyway, if I can walk on water and turn water into wine, I would magically deactivate my nervous system and simulate some pain, in order to achieve the required objective. Maybe He did, how can we say?

Ciao

- viole

I expect a lot of people would accept a deal
to be similarly tortured, if that is what it costs
to be made 21 yrs old again, and in perfect health.

Polymath257 · Jun 7, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Luckily we DO agree, then, just like you told your daughter before and after, God prepared His people for Messiah then they wrote a NT. And over one dozen eyewitness writers spoke of the non-silliness of what they saw and heard from Jesus, in person.

Glad we agree.

We also agree that people in Hell are separated from God, and not tortured forever (except for the obvious regret from having exercised their free will so poorly, as to reject the Savior.

I didn't say I agree. I said that, under a hypothetical, this would be what I would see as just.

And, your claims about eyewitnesses do not correlate with reality from what I have seen. The stories in the Bible were written well after the events and not by the people tradition assigns to them.

So, then, if Hell is merely the separation from God, what's the problem? As far from a tyrant as possible is best. What's there to regret?

blü 2 · Jun 7, 2019

Audie said:
The way I see the abortion thing, it is a poor
and tragic necessity in an age that is not
that much advanced over the one I just
described.

I have no doubt that it's a tough decision and an ordeal for the mother.

Audie said:
As a matter of ideals, society should work
as fast as it can away from abortion ever
being necessary or desirable.

A level economic playing field would be a good start. So would, and sometimes is, good public education.

BilliardsBall · Jun 10, 2019

Darkstorn said:
It's all in the post you quoted. You should have apologized to Polymath. This post doesn't exactly give me a "good Christian" vibe. You're imagining oppression when you're the one who lectures people and arguably tries to oppress them and they defend themselves.

But i can totally see why you would see your own attack as an act of love and others' defence as an attack. Good luck with that, i'm done with your delusion.

You're both self-justifying and self-righteous. Horrendous.

No, you are--since "righteous" and "justified" are your subjective terms, where I go from objective terms. I'm loving and kind, but you open yourself up to ridicule for trolling a religious forum.

BilliardsBall · Jun 10, 2019

Polymath257 said:
I didn't say I agree. I said that, under a hypothetical, this would be what I would see as just.

And, your claims about eyewitnesses do not correlate with reality from what I have seen. The stories in the Bible were written well after the events and not by the people tradition assigns to them.

So, then, if Hell is merely the separation from God, what's the problem? As far from a tyrant as possible is best. What's there to regret?

The stories in the Bible, as acknowledged by leading experts, were written far closer to the events than you think/claim, I'm aware of many points of evidence that indicate very early dates for most of the NT.

You can't think of why being alone in a dark, cheerless place for eternity, regretting your self-willed choices to reject God and God's people who love you, would cause you regret--over the course of said eternity? I don't believe your "chipper" attitude of flippancy.

BilliardsBall · Jun 10, 2019

ImmortalFlame said:
So you're completely ignoring the resurrection?

Once again, you're COMPLETELY IGNORING Jesus' resurrection? Seriously?

Jesus's resurrection is my justification and eternal life. We both know who is ignoring the fact of the resurrection.

Polymath257 · Jun 10, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
The stories in the Bible, as acknowledged by leading experts, were written far closer to the events than you think/claim, I'm aware of many points of evidence that indicate very early dates for most of the NT.

You can't think of why being alone in a dark, cheerless place for eternity, regretting your self-willed choices to reject God and God's people who love you, would cause you regret--over the course of said eternity? I don't believe your "chipper" attitude of flippancy.

I think any type of *eternity* would eventually drive a reasonable person insane.

Why do you think a place would be 'dark and cheerless' simply because it is away from a deity? Seems to me that is the better option leading to more happiness.

Polymath257 · Jun 10, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Jesus's resurrection is my justification and eternal life. We both know who is ignoring the fact of the resurrection.

I am not ignoring the *story* of the resurrection. I just don't believe it is a valid story.

The Arrogance of Both Science and Religion

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