the existence of god is a scientific fact

joe1776 said:

It adds up for me: The psi journals aren't biased against publishing psi research.

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Imagine that. What a coincidence: the creationist journals also aren't biased against publishing creationist stuff.

The mainstream journals are.​

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joe1776 said:

Just how in the hell would you do that?

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So you believe something that you have absolutely no reason to?

joe1776 said:

I can't possibly prove you wrong without a doubt. What I've done in this debate is make an argument that I think will persuade unbiased minds that they should ignore self-proclaimed skeptics and their ridicule of the subject of the paranormal.

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And you have utterly failed.

My mind is biased in favour of the paranormal, and yet your arguments are incredibly feeble to me. You've let me down, again.

ImmortalFlame said:

Please present evidence of this bias and explain why it exists.

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The evidence would involve many separate examples which would take hours to write up only to have you trash it anyway. I'll pass on that.

As to the why: (1) Most scientists are philosophical materialists; the paranormal challenges their philosophy. (2) Arrogant people find it hard to accept the idea that other minds might have produced these extraordinary experiences while theirs produced nothing; (3) Arrogant people also enjoy thinking that others are stupid for believing in the paranormal. It's fun to ridicule such claims.

ImmortalFlame said:

So you believe something that you have absolutely no reason to?

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No, maybe you missed it. I know telepathy and precognition exist because of one extraordinary experience with each.

TagliatelliMonster said:

The parallels are very uncanny...

1. fail to get your stuff published (because it doesn't meet the standards of those journals)

2. accuse them of conspiracy / being biased (or "anti god" or "anti psi")

3. create your own journals and indiscriminatly publish all the stuff in there that you can't get published in the mainstream

4. pretend as if that means something

5. when questioned, accuse the scientific community again


Yeah.... I've seen that movie before.

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Your argument is circular because its based on the premise that the psi claim of bias is unfounded which is the very claim you're making.

joe1776 said:

The evidence would involve many separate examples which would take hours to write up only to have you trash it anyway. I'll pass on that.

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"I have this super-duper evidence, but it's too much effort to present and you'd never accept it anyway, so I'm not going to show you."

joe1776 said:

As to the why: (1) Most scientists are philosophical materialists; the paranormal challenges their philosophy.

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False. According to the most recent Pew studies, the majority of scientists (51%) believe in some form of God, spirit or Universal higher power.
SOURCE: Scientists and Belief

joe1776 said:

(2) Arrogant people find it hard to accept the idea that other minds might have produced these extraordinary experiences while theirs produced nothing;

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Arrogant minds also find it difficult to accept the idea that something that they strongly believe may have no basis in reality. This is not evidence of a wide-ranging scientific conspiracy against the paranormal.

joe1776 said:

(3) Arrogant people also enjoy thinking that others are stupid for believing in the paranormal. It's fun to ridicule such claims.

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It's also easy, considering there's no reason whatsoever to think their claims are true.

Again, these reasons are incredibly weak. Either outright false or based on the baseless personal value judgements of every member of the scientific community. I see no actual hard evidence to support this. Scientific orthodoxy has been challenged and turned on its head multiple times in light of revelations in the past (relativity, evolution, quantum physics), and the "arrogant" scientists eventually came around to adopting those conclusions too because the evidence was on their side. The fact that you have to imagine arrogance on the part of millions of scientists in order to protect your unfounded position speaks volumes.

joe1776 said:

No, maybe you missed it. I know telepathy and precognition exist because of one extraordinary experience with each.

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I don't believe you. I think you made it up, because you refuse to actually demonstrate this experience is valid and denigrate the very scientific method which could do so.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Imagine that. What a coincidence: the creationist journals also aren't biased against publishing creationist stuff.

Or.....
The psi papers don't meet the standard of quality that every other paper must also meet in order to get published.

Considering that your option requires the assumption that millions of scientists are in on pretty much a ginormous global conspiracy, I'ld say that the most obvious answer is that the PSI "research" simply isn't good enough to warrant publication in actual scientific journals.​

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The WWCOSSTSTTOPSI is the group you are thinking of.

They split off from the satanic scientists who only want to
Suppress The Truth Of God.

joe1776 said:

Your argument is circular because its based on the premise that the psi claim of bias is unfounded which is the very claim you're making.

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It's not an argument against psi journals, it's an argument against your logic defending psi journals. It's the logic YOU are using, not him.

ImmortalFlame said:

"I have this super-duper evidence, but it's too much effort to present and you'd never accept it anyway, so I'm not going to show you."


False. According to the most recent Pew studies, the majority of scientists (51%) believe in some form of God, spirit or Universal higher power.
SOURCE: Scientists and Belief


Arrogant minds also find it difficult to accept the idea that something that they strongly believe may have no basis in reality. This is not evidence of a wide-ranging scientific conspiracy against the paranormal.


It's also easy, considering there's no reason whatsoever to think their claims are true.

Again, these reasons are incredibly weak. Either outright false or based on the baseless personal value judgements of every member of the scientific community. I see no actual hard evidence to support this. Scientific orthodoxy has been challenged and turned on its head multiple times in light of revelations in the past (relativity, evolution, quantum physics), and the "arrogant" scientists eventually came around to adopting those conclusions too because the evidence was on their side. The fact that you have to imagine arrogance on the part of millions of scientists in order to protect your unfounded position speaks volumes.

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For arrogance to the point of insanity you can
hardly beat these people who are convinced
that they know more than any scientist on earth.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Imagine that. What a coincidence: the creationist journals also aren't biased against publishing creationist stuff.

Or.....
The psi papers don't meet the standard of quality that every other paper must also meet in order to get published.

Considering that your option requires the assumption that millions of scientists are in on pretty much a ginormous global conspiracy, I'ld say that the most obvious answer is that the PSI "research" simply isn't good enough to warrant publication in actual scientific journals.​

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How did you jump to the conclusion that a global conspiracy would have to be involved? See my post 423.

The bias can be explained

joe1776 said:

What I've done in this debate is make an argument that I think will persuade unbiased minds that they should ignore self-proclaimed skeptics and their ridicule of the subject of the paranormal.

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I love it!

"you either agree with me, or you're biased".

Awesome.

ImmortalFlame said:

It's not an argument against psi journals, it's an argument against your logic defending psi journals. It's the logic YOU are using, not him.

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You're wrong. He can't make that argument if he doesn't begin with the premise that the claim of bias is unfounded.

ImmortalFlame said:

I don't believe you. I think you made it up, because you refuse to actually demonstrate this experience is valid and denigrate the very scientific method which could do so.

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Who knows where is the line between what
someone simply makes up, and what a person
otherwise comes to believe, though it does not
happen to be true. We may all slide back and
forth across that line sometimes.

What is intellectually unforgivable is for someone
to take an iffy personal experience, one that goes
against all reason, from there concoct a
whole new construct of reality, and in the process
make up ridiculous calumny against all who
do not see things his way.

You get someone like that with a strong personality,
and some weak minded people about who can
be convinced, and next thing you know, you have
people headed for Heaven's Gate.

TagliatelliMonster said:

I love it!

"you either agree with me, or you're biased".

Awesome.

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Is there some term for that kind of attempt
at a preemptive strike on the integrity of
others?

TagliatelliMonster said:

I love it!

"you either agree with me, or you're biased".

Awesome.

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That's not a logical deduction.

joe1776 said:

The evidence would involve many separate examples which would take hours to write up only to have you trash it anyway. I'll pass on that.

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Then you'll off course understand that nobody reading this will have any reason to accept your accusations at the address of the scientific community.

You're still free to attempt to actually support your claims though.
I suggest you start with one example. Just take the most blatant one. Your BEST example. And we'll see where it goes from there?

I'm actually quite interested.

As to the why: (1) Most scientists are philosophical materialists; the paranormal challenges their philosophy.

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Well, for starters, that's just false.

Secondly...
Philosophies and worldviews are challenged constantly whenever big discoveries are made and/or old ideas are overturned.

Like steady state theory being displaced by big bang and such. Quantum physics, relativity of time, etc.
Many of these are are quite unfathomable and to laymen even kind of "magical" - especially quantum weirdness.

But you know... "big bang ists" or "quantumists" didn't need to create their own special journals where they could publish their stuff and all agree with eachother as an alternative.

Eventually their ideas were accepted by consensus because they had the proper data to demonstrate the accuracy of their ideas.

It wasn't a problem for them to "challenge" the worldviews / philosophies of rival scientists.
It also wasn't a problem for those rival scientists to change their minds in the face of undeniable data.

So why would it be a problem for PSI?
Could it be the same kind of problem as the problem of "creation science"?

I mean, it sure smells like it..........

(2) Arrogant people find it hard to accept the idea that other minds might have produced these extraordinary experiences while theirs produced nothing;

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Sure. I'm sure plenty of scientists can get quite jealous on the accomplishments of their peers also.

How would this be a problem though?
Are you saying that ALL mainstream scientists (thousands, millions of them) are so "arrogant" that they even stay in denial of demonstrable facts? Seriously?

ps: now, you've even moved from baseless accusations of bias / conspiracy, the character attacks by calling them all "arrogant" as well.

Do you realise that so far, your entire case consists of nothing else then personal attacks and baseless accusations that you are refusing to support because "it would be too much work"?

It's not looking very good, now is it...?

(3) Arrogant people also enjoy thinking that others are stupid for believing in the paranormal. It's fun to ridicule such claims.

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And the empty irrelevant fallacious personal attacks just continue.................

joe1776 said:

Your argument is circular because its based on the premise that the psi claim of bias is unfounded which is the very claim you're making.

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No.

My argument has no such premise.
The premise is that they don't succeed in getting their papers published in journals.
The reason one doesn't get published in such journals, if the papers don't meet the standards of quality.

I know you claim there are "other" reasons. Creationist make that claim to. I included it in the second point.

You have to support this claim. You refuse to do so.

Which, incidently, is another thing you have in common with creationists....

The constant attacks and accusations, without a single shred of evidence, at the address of "evil / arrogant scientists".

joe1776 said:

You're wrong. He can't make that argument if he doesn't begin with the premise that the claim of bias is unfounded.

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Go and re-read his post. He's pointing out the flaw in YOUR logic, he's not presenting an argument against the journals.

joe1776 said:

That's not a logical deduction.

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It's your logic.