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Salvation from what?
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Booko
Deviled Hen
recluse said:
It's a bit of a paradox, isn't it? I know you addressed this to Snowbear, but I'd like to take it on, if you don't mind.
You might be sitting at the lunch table with your best friend too, but if you turn your back and stop listening, are you not "separated"? We choose to separate ourselves from God through our own actions, the same as we might a good friend.
The analogy is hardly exact, of course, but it's a starting point.
Oh, btw, Baha'is don't do the eternal hellfire thing.
I'm somewhat puzzled by the initial premise that Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and other world religions see, "salvation" as a goal or necessity.
This is clearly true of the Abrahamic faiths, which believe people are destined for permanent harm or endless torture or misery unless specific beliefs, behaviors and rituals are maintained. The Abrahamic religions can be thought of as formulas for evading the imminent danger of a permanent Hell.
Evading an imminent threat is not the focus of the "eastern" religions. Salvation is not a major focus inasmuch as there is no perception if imminent danger.
"Saving" someone who is not in danger is just silly.
This is clearly true of the Abrahamic faiths, which believe people are destined for permanent harm or endless torture or misery unless specific beliefs, behaviors and rituals are maintained. The Abrahamic religions can be thought of as formulas for evading the imminent danger of a permanent Hell.
Evading an imminent threat is not the focus of the "eastern" religions. Salvation is not a major focus inasmuch as there is no perception if imminent danger.
"Saving" someone who is not in danger is just silly.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Mike182 said:the majority of Pagans see nothing wrong with human nature, so we see nothing that we must be saved from
That use to be my response as well. But, look at the world around us.... we need saving from ourselves.
jewscout
Religious Zionist
Victor said:
the wrath of G-d?
The Israelites have a relationship w/ G-d because their father, Abraham, had a relationship with G-d. It's like having a relationship with the children of a friend you've known your whole life, even after your friend has long since past away. You see your old friend in his children.
Booko said:
You're right, Booko. I was thinking mostly of Christianity and Islam when I wrote about a preoccupation with spiritual peril and with salvation from same. I should have been more specific.
But I still contend that Hinduism and Buddhism are not focused on salvation from Hell, but with spiritual progress.
Mary Blackchurch
Free from Stockholm Syndrome
Victor said:
These are all good answers. Thank you. Booko, why would you be in hellfire and damnation with your friend with your back turned or otherwise?
I think I am going to join b'haism.. haha no hell? good on you!Now, Victor. there's a big 'No' on the question of yours from me. If there is a God what does he have to be angry at? He creates faulty human beings and them blames them for his failures? That's like me blaming my last oil painting because it didn't come out perfect ---oh! but I love it though...
...but I am going to have to burn it for all eternity in the presence of my holy angels. :help: Save me from this philosophy. It is stories like this that make people suicidal--homicidal, etc. Too many enter the nutward with bibles under their arms and rosaries around their necks. "God's Wrath" was a nice little trick to use to control the minds of people....and it's worked well. We all need to awaken from that nightmare---that is where salvation is. :yes:
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
recluse said:These are all good answers. Thank you. Booko, why would you be in hellfire and damnation with your friend with your back turned or otherwise?
Now, Victor. there's a big 'No' on the question of yours from me. If there is a God what does he have to be angry at? He creates faulty human beings and them blames them for his failures? That's like me blaming my last oil painting because it didn't come out perfect ---oh! but I love it though... ...but I am going to have to burn it for all eternity in the presence of my holy angels. Save me from this philosophy. It is stories like this that make people suicidal--homicidal, etc. Too many enter the nutward with bibles under their arms and rosaries around their necks. "God's Wrath" was a nice little trick to use to control the minds of people....and it's worked well. We all need to awaken from that nightmare---that is where salvation is. :yes:
The bolded above is where your premise differs from mine. I don't belive humans were created faulty.
Good questions. Here's my take:recluse said:thank you for your response splogan. Why did god save your heart and not mine? Is He a respecter of persons or not? also, if he loved man so much--and genesis says that he does and walked in harmony with adam--then why did he set him up just to find out if he reaaaally loved him? dont you see how weird that is? I think its myth and the only ones who need saving are the people who have been brainwashed by that dogma. You have a god who loves us so much, but is willing to burn creation in the oven because we are supposed to forgive our very enemies -- but apparantly he can't.
1) I cannot say definitively, or even assume, that God did not save your heart.
2) God is One who requires respect by persons. He owes no respect. He is committed to loving people and He is committed to being perfectly just.
3) Regarding Adam: Think about this: a parent could keep his/her children out of trouble by controlling them- trapping them in their home, drugging them to make them passive and obedient, etc. OR a parent can simply tell his/her children what the rules and consequences are and let the children live in freedom. God only gave Adam one rule. Only one tree was off limits. That tree allowed Adam to obey God by his own choice, as opposed to there being no other options.
4)If your glass is half-full, you just thank God for saving some people from what they deserve. If you have ten guilty criminals and three of them are pardoned for their crimes, is it unfair to not pardon all ten? I believe that God forgives A LOT of His most hated enemies. He can forgive whoever he wants. It is only by His loving "amazing" grace that He chooses to forgive and change the heart of even one person.
Caveat: One difference between the metaphor of "someone pardoning a criminal" and "God's pardoning sinners" is that God actually accepts the punishment on the sinners behalf - something that a government official typically does not do.
It's worth pointing out that Christians have various views on these things. Sometimes the "varying views" are just semantics. I wish all of us could just agree, but we don't because we still have sin in us and our pride gets in the way. Granted, perhaps my following comment is an example of that.Snowbear said:I can't speak for the other guys, but the God I believe in as a Christian doesn't do the actual burning. I do believe that Salvation through Him does keep one from entering said oven, however
All that to say, I believe that God does, in fact, often "do the burning." Sodom and Gomorrah is one example. One could consider flooding the entire World except for one family a form of God's "doing the burning." I believe that God is sovereign- therefore, any "burning," suffering, or death that takes place anywhere is subject to His authority. On the other side of the coin, I think that it is only by God's sovereign grace that I, as a sinner, live to see the sunrise another day.
that's all.
Mary Blackchurch
Free from Stockholm Syndrome
thank you again for your response. However, I have so many problems with this theory. The first and most obvious is that the bible was written by MEN who lie all the time and yet we believe this story that has been retranslated more than 500 times in the last century alone--leaving it to lose some of its authenticity which is bore out, not only by the dead sea scrolls, but also by the way the bible contradicts itself. For example, the part you said about God not owing respect to anyone. If you have children and you have brought them into this world, you can't teach them true respect without first showing it to them. Secondly, the part about God giving Adam only one rule---I have to ask why did he give him any rules in the first place? According to today's version of the bible, God SET THOSE TREES UP in the garden--and since he's all knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would partake and thus be disobedient. Why? Just so he could burn people in Soddom and Gomorrah, drown the whole world and then feel remorse about it to the point that he promises not to do it again. THEN of all thngs, he overcomes Mary and impregnates her [luke chapter 1] so that he could give birth to himself just so he can die for man.SPLogan said:
That not only makes him a fornicator under Jewish law but also an illegitimate child as he had no earthly father. And yet he was still allowed to preach in the synogogue. That would have never happened. I am still of the highest opinion that the bible today, and Christianity as a whole is a myth. The evil it has done bears this out better than any written words Paul the apostle or I could write/type. It's obvious to those who refuse to be brainwashed and really want salvation from it.
Booko
Deviled Hen
Seyorni said:
Well, I figured as much.
The thing is, I study Dharmic religions and find that attachment is the cause of suffering.
I read my own religions texts and find that attachment keeps us from God.
I read texts of Christianity and Islam and find that we need to be "in this world, but not of it" and similar passages, and that sounds like the attachment thing all over again.
If we need to be "saved" from anything, maybe it's being preoccupied with physical things, when it's the spiritual things that really matter.
Again, the things of this world are not what's really important. Or, if you prefer, this world is illusion. Different cultures, same concept.
All of these seem, to me anyway, to be trying to describe essentially the same thing. So if you talk to me about Enlightenment and a Christian talks about Salvation, I hear the same essential principle, though obviously described from different perspectives.
(Did this make any sense? I've been out late partying.
)I agree that God did the burning of Sodom and Gomorra and the other folks in the OT. And that He will do or cause the burning 'the elements will melt' (?nuclear burning?) written of in 2Peter.SPLogan said:All that to say, I believe that God does, in fact, often "do the burning." Sodom and Gomorrah is one example. One could consider flooding the entire World except for one family a form of God's "doing the burning." I believe that God is sovereign- therefore, any "burning," suffering, or death that takes place anywhere is subject to His authority. On the other side of the coin, I think that it is only by God's sovereign grace that I, as a sinner, live to see the sunrise another day.
As for agreeing on everything - it seems most Christians agree on the basic Salvation thing... which IMO is a pretty important part
that's all.