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A Flood of Nonsense

exchemist

Veteran Member
Good link.. thanks. Did you see the development of the Ur Schatt River into the Persian Gulf?

Interesting information about temples and the Uruk and Ubaid civilizations.

So much came out of those city states including irrigation.
Did you read the "end notes"?

That is where they speculate about linking the general prevalence of flood myths to inundations following the ice age, and about the Gilgamesh/Biblical myth in particular being linked to the flooding of the Persian Gulf. I know there are alternative speculations, involving the flooding of the Black Sea basin etc, but had not come across this one before. I was impressed by the detail they have put together on it.

(Could be a good one for @Subduction Zone to read, seeing as geology is his bag.)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Did you read the "end notes"?

That is where they speculate about linking the general prevalence of flood myths to inundations following the ice age, and about the Gilgamesh/Biblical myth in particular being linked to the flooding of the Persian Gulf. I know there are alternative speculations, involving the flooding of the Black Sea basin etc, but had not come across this one before. I was impressed by the detail they have put together on it.

(Could be a good one for @Subduction Zone to read, seeing as geology is his bag.)

In Bahrain they have lots of springs.. In fact, there are fresh water springs off the coast of Eastern KSA bubbling up thru the sea water. Dilmun (Bahrain) was closely tied to the Indus Valley and Mesopotamia in antiquity... and they have found thousands of cuneiform tablets.

The Black sea flood was slow moving.. and if you look at the maps of the Ur Schatt so was the development of the Persian Gulf.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Who were the Anakim / Anakites? - GotQuestions.org
https://www.gotquestions.org/Anakim.html
Question: "Who were the Anakim / Anakites?" Answer: The Anakim/Anakites were a formidable race of giant, warlike people (Deuteronomy 2:10, 21; 9:2) who occupied the lands of southern Israel near Hebron before the arrival of the Israelites (Joshua 15:13). The Anakim’s ancestry has been traced back to Anak, the son of Arba (Joshua 15:13; 21:11), who at that time was regarded as the “greatest ...


2 Samuel 21:15-22
Which translation are you reading? I see no place that says "Goliath was a descendant of the Nephilim". Are you listening to skeptics, and taking their word still.
Well, it appears you do want to go down that pit.
Well, that's your choice. At least I tried. My hands are clean.

By the way, if you are going to say, according to 2 Samuel, blah blah blah, it would be the honest thing to make sure that, that is according to Samuel, and not according to what John Brown says, and especially not Bible Bashing Skeptics, because if you do that with certain people, they will brand you as a liar against God's word, and you build up such a reputation, people don't want to hear anything from you about God, the Bible, or spirituality.

But then, you don't mind that, do you, because although you put Christian in your profile, everyone here knows... where it's at.
I don't think you witness to others about the Bible either, so in that case, it won't be a problem.

From my experience though, if one says, according to John 3:16, they had better say what's in john 3:16, otherwise, you just lost an opportunity to converse with someone who believes the Bible.
If one does not care much about the Bible, they say anything, because they don't care about truth. Their aim is to discredit the Bible, and as long as I am on these forums, there is one thing I will never forget about you sooda...
sooda said, "God blew it." :eek: What?
Like a true Atheist. :D
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Which translation are you reading? I see no place that says "Goliath was a descendant of the Nephilim". Are you listening to skeptics, and taking their word still.
Well, it appears you do want to go down that pit.
Well, that's your choice. At least I tried. My hands are clean.

By the way, if you are going to say, according to 2 Samuel, blah blah blah, it would be the honest thing to make sure that, that is according to Samuel, and not according to what John Brown says, and especially not Bible Bashing Skeptics, because if you do that with certain people, they will brand you as a liar against God's word, and you build up such a reputation, people don't want to hear anything from you about God, the Bible, or spirituality.

But then, you don't mind that, do you, because although you put Christian in your profile, everyone here knows... where it's at.
I don't think you witness to others about the Bible either, so in that case, it won't be a problem.

From my experience though, if one says, according to John 3:16, they had better say what's in john 3:16, otherwise, you just lost an opportunity to converse with someone who believes the Bible.
If one does not care much about the Bible, they say anything, because they don't care about truth. Their aim is to discredit the Bible, and as long as I am on these forums, there is one thing I will never forget about you sooda...
sooda said, "God blew it." :eek: What?
Like a true Atheist. :D

I gave you chapter and verse in 2 Samuel.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
In Bahrain they have lots of springs.. In fact, there are fresh water springs off the coast of Eastern KSA bubbling up thru the sea water. Dilmun (Bahrain) was closely tied to the Indus Valley and Mesopotamia in antiquity... and they have found thousands of cuneiform tablets.

The Black sea flood was slow moving.. and if you look at the maps of the Ur Schatt so was the development of the Persian Gulf.
Overall yes but it moved in stages. If you read the article, it reached rates of advance over the land of 1km/yr, that is, 3 metres/day. That is far from slow, if it is your village or your wheat field that is being inundated.

Read the end notes.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Debunking Creationism: A Flood of Nonsense! The Myth of a ...

Debunking Creationism: November 2012a-flood-of-nonsense-myth-of...

Nov 23, 2012 · Yet another flood story that differs significantly from the biblical one is found in Norse myth. Odin and his two brothers, Villi and Ve, kill the frost giant, Ymir, and make the world out of his body. His blood creates a flood that drowns most of the other frost giants. All this happens before the creation of the human race.

Excerpt:

Are flood myths universal? No. At least, not one in which a worldwide flood wipes out all of the human race but for a couple or a single family. Consider the case of China. Does this large country with an unbroken history going back to ancient times have a flood myth, replete with a boat on which a few survivors escape, from thence to reestablish the human race?

It does, however that particular flood myth comes from an ethnic minority called the Miao. They speak a language similar to Thai and appear to have immigrated to China from Southeast Asia. The only other flood myth from China involves annual flooding from rivers and the need for people to work together to prevent such destruction. It involves no ark and no destruction of all life on the planet.

Consider also an Egyptian flood myth. Surely this one should be similar to those of the Bible and Mesopotamia if the flood were, in fact, historical. In this myth the gods, suspecting mortal treachery against them, dispatch the goddess Hat-hor to take vengeance on the human race.

However, her blood lust gets out of hand and threatens to utterly annihilate humanity. Since this is not the aim of the gods, they pour out upon Egypt a flood of beer brewed from mandrake root, which has soporific properties. Hat-hor, setting out on her daily rampage, looks down at the flooded land of Egypt, sees her own beautiful visage reflected in the beer and bends down to kiss it. She begins to drink the mandrake root beer and drinks so much of it that she forgets the plan of destruction and instead staggers off to bed. Thus, in the Egyptian flood story, the flood saves the human race.

Yet another flood story that differs significantly from the biblical one is found in Norse myth. Odin and his two brothers, Villi and Ve, kill the frost giant, Ymir, and make the world out of his body. His blood creates a flood that drowns most of the other frost giants. All this happens before the creation of the human race.

There is no native Celtic flood myth. I have to stress the word “native” since the Celtic myths, like those of the Teutonic peoples were written down by Christian monks, who harmonized them with myths from the Bible. Here is yet another problem with the vaunted universality of flood myths: Many of them appear courtesy of cultural contamination by Christian and, in some cases, Muslim, missionaries.

Diffusion of flood myths is also a factor. While there are differences between earlier Mesopotamian myths and the story of Noah’s ark, and while there is not a literary descent from the earlier material to the later, there is a cultural continuity. Thus, the Akkadian flood epic, Atrahasis, gave rise to later flood tales, not only the story of Noah in the Bible, but, as well, that of Deucalion and Pyrrha in Greek mythology. We do not find, nor would we expect to find, any great literary correspondence between an Akkadian epic, written on preserved tablets dating from ca. 1650 BCE and the biblical flood myth, the earliest version of which probably dates from ca. 850 BCE.

In his defense of the biblical flood story as history, White also falls back on an old canard, to whit, that the scribal transcription of the biblical text is so precise that it is far more accurate and less open to corrupting changes than any other ancient document.

Certainly this might have been true of their transcription once the documents in question were seen as holy writ. However, varying versions of biblical tales were still being written perhaps as late as the Babylonian Captivity (587–538 BCE). That the biblical text is of late compilation is further attested to by its many anachronisms. Consider, as an example, what Genesis says of the place of origin of Abrahm, that is, Abraham (Gen. 11:31 emphasis added):

Tereh took Abrahm his son and Lot, the son of Haran, his grandson and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abrahm’s wife, and he went forth from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan; but when they came to Haran they settled there.

While this test purports to be from the hand of Moses, written sometime between 1400 and 1200 BCE, the Chaldeans did not occupy Ur until ca. 800 BCE. Hence, this document’s reference to Ur as “Ur of the Chaldeans” dates it as having been written after that time.

Chris White would do a great service to the cause of critical thinking, and to himself as well, were he to excise the flood material from his otherwise exemplary documentary.

Debunking Creationism: A Flood of Nonsense! The Myth of a Universal flood via eSkeptic


There's so much wrong with you post that I'm tempted to reply, to correct you, lovingly, but I don't think I shall.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
2 Samuel 21:15-22
Are you copying and pasting skeptic web-pages, and not even bothering to read the scriptures?
That scripture does not say what you claimed.
Why are you reposting it, when apparently you do not realize that it says nothing that your apparent favorite website claims?
Could you take time to argue from your claim, instead of someone else's.

Where does the scripture say, "Goliath was a descendant of the Nephilim"?
It does not say that in 2 Samuel 21:15-22. No scripture says that actually.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Are you copying and pasting skeptic web-pages, and not even bothering to read the scriptures?
That scripture does not say what you claimed.
Why are you reposting it, when apparently you do not realize that it says nothing that your apparent favorite website claims?
Could you take time to argue from your claim, instead of someone else's.

Where does the scripture say, "Goliath was a descendant of the Nephilim"?
It does not say that in 2 Samuel 21:15-22. No scripture says that actually.

You don't know enough to understand what you read. Are you raising a family? Is this what you teach your children?

2 Samuel 21:15-22 15Once again there was a battle between the Philistines and Israel. David went down with his men to fight against the Philistines, and he became exhausted. 16And Ishbi-Benob, one of the descendants of Rapha, whose bronze spearhead weighed three hundred shekels and who was armed with a new sword, said he would kill David. 17But Abishai son of Zeruiah came to David's rescue; he struck the Philistine down and killed him. Then David's men swore to him, saying, "Never again will you go out with us to battle, so that the lamp of Israel will not be extinguished." 18In the course of time, there was another battle with the Philistines, at Gob. At that time Sibbekai the Hushathite killed Saph, one of the descendants of Rapha. 19In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod. 20In still another battle, which took place at Gath, there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot-twenty-four in all. He also was descended from Rapha. 21When he taunted Israel, Jonathan son of Shimeah, David's brother, killed him. 22These four were descendants of Rapha in Gath, and they fell at the hands of David and his men.


So these descendants of Rapha in Gath fell at the hands of David and his servants. These were descended from the giants in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants. These were born unto the giant in Gath; and they fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants.
1 Chronicles 20:8 So these descendants of Rapha in Gath ...
biblehub.com/1_chronicles/20-8.htm
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You don't know enough to understand what you read. Are you raising a family? Is this what you teach your children?

2 Samuel 21:15-22 15Once again there was a battle between the Philistines and Israel. David went down with his men to fight against the Philistines, and he became exhausted. 16And Ishbi-Benob, one of the descendants of Rapha, whose bronze spearhead weighed three hundred shekels and who was armed with a new sword, said he would kill David. 17But Abishai son of Zeruiah came to David's rescue; he struck the Philistine down and killed him. Then David's men swore to him, saying, "Never again will you go out with us to battle, so that the lamp of Israel will not be extinguished." 18In the course of time, there was another battle with the Philistines, at Gob. At that time Sibbekai the Hushathite killed Saph, one of the descendants of Rapha. 19In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod. 20In still another battle, which took place at Gath, there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot-twenty-four in all. He also was descended from Rapha. 21When he taunted Israel, Jonathan son of Shimeah, David's brother, killed him. 22These four were descendants of Rapha in Gath, and they fell at the hands of David and his men.


So these descendants of Rapha in Gath fell at the hands of David and his servants. These were descended from the giants in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants. These were born unto the giant in Gath; and they fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants.
1 Chronicles 20:8 So these descendants of Rapha in Gath ...
biblehub.com/1_chronicles/20-8.htm
Can you find in the Bible, where a man got pinned to the ground? LOL

How do you read... or do you?
Continuing from post 51.
Joshua 11:21-23
21 At that time Joshua wiped out the Anakim from the mountainous region, from Hebron, Debir, Aʹnab, and all the mountainous region of Judah and all the mountainous region of Israel. Joshua devoted them and their cities to destruction. 22There were no Anakim left in the land of the Israelites; they remained only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod. 23 So Joshua took control of all the land, just as Jehovah had promised Moses, and then Joshua gave it as an inheritance to Israel by their shares to be divided among their tribes. And the land had rest from war.

Who are the descendants of Anak again? Deuteronomy 9:1, 2
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Can you find in the Bible, where a man got pinned to the ground? LOL

How do you read... or do you?
Continuing from post 51.
Joshua 11:21-23
21 At that time Joshua wiped out the Anakim from the mountainous region, from Hebron, Debir, Aʹnab, and all the mountainous region of Judah and all the mountainous region of Israel. Joshua devoted them and their cities to destruction. 22There were no Anakim left in the land of the Israelites; they remained only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod. 23 So Joshua took control of all the land, just as Jehovah had promised Moses, and then Joshua gave it as an inheritance to Israel by their shares to be divided among their tribes. And the land had rest from war.

Who are the descendants of Anak again? Deuteronomy 9:1, 2

Joshua is pure fiction. He had no army and he didn't chase off any Canaanites or destroy their cities.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Joshua is pure fiction. He had no army and he didn't chase off any Canaanites or destroy their cities.
According to you, the Nephillim are fiction too, yet you were discussing it. What happened now? Can't discuss something when it refutes your argument?
Why discuss any of it then.
From now on, I am taking @BilliardsBall position. It seems wise at this point.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
According to you, the Nephillim are fiction too, yet you were discussing it. What happened now? Can't discuss something when it refutes your argument?
Why discuss any of it then.
From now on, I am taking @BilliardsBall position. It seems wise at this point.

David's Jerusalem was 10 acres and fewer than 2000 people. There was no army. Jerusalem was poor .. It was bandit territory. All this grandiose stuff was invented when they were in exile in Babylon.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Overall yes but it moved in stages. If you read the article, it reached rates of advance over the land of 1km/yr, that is, 3 metres/day. That is far from slow, if it is your village or your wheat field that is being inundated.

Read the end notes.

You have time to move your family and livestock to higher ground. Its not a catastrophic flood that drowns all life.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
What "floods of nonsense"?
It seems to me that much general nonsense occurs because of misinterpretations of ancient myths and religious scriptures.

Quote from Debunking Creationism: A Flood of Nonsense! The Myth of a Universal flood via eSkeptic

"Are flood myths universal? No. At least, not one in which a worldwide flood wipes out all of the human race but for a couple or a single family".

As the cultural Flood Myths are directly connected to the Stories of Creation, the interpretation logically cannot be connected with anything else but the "wonderful creation of from which we all origin".

An example of misinterpretation:
"Consider also an Egyptian flood myth. Surely this one should be similar to those of the Bible and Mesopotamia if the flood were, in fact, historical. In this myth the gods, suspecting mortal treachery against them, dispatch the goddess Hat-hor to take vengeance on the human race".

The last sentense is nonsens. The Egyptian Goddess Hathor resembles the Milky Way which also in several cultures are mentioned as "The Heavenly River". This "river" is of course "running" up in the night Sky, high above the Earth and it can be observed all around the Earth.

If scholars and laymen have no astronomical and mythical knowledge. they of course have no other possibilities but to interpret this myth or religious text as something once happend ON the Earth and in this way, much confusing nonsense occurs.

The mythical or religious (Milky Way) Flood is running OVER the Earth and not ON the Earth. This fact of course discards the strange idea of any "divine vengeance" on the human race.
Of course different cultures all over the world have similar "flood myths" as the origin of these (Milky Way) myths are observed and fairly equally imagined all over the world.

These myths are not nonsense but empirical human knowledge of the Creation itself.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
You have time to move your family and livestock to higher ground. Its not a catastrophic flood that drowns all life.
Nobody is talking about a sudden catastrophe. I seriously wonder if you bother to read what I write at all. Do me a huge favour please, and re-read post 40. That is the point I am trying to get across, for some reason with enormous difficulty where you are concerned.

Let me spell it out for you once again.

If a people has to progressively abandon its villages and fields to the sea - for generations - due to the sea inexorably advancing at a rate of 3 metres every single day for years on end, that will be fairly traumatic, will certainly become part of the community history handed down orally and may well prompt religious speculations as to what is causing it and why this trauma should have been visited on them. And then, like a fisherman's tale, the story becomes embellished and made more dramatic.

Read the end notes of the paper. That is the point the authors make.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Nobody is talking about a sudden catastrophe. I seriously wonder if you bother to read what I write at all. Do me a huge favour please, and re-read post 40. That is the point I am trying to get across, for some reason with enormous difficulty where you are concerned.

Let me spell it out for you once again.

If a people has to progressively abandon its villages and fields to the sea - for generations - due to the sea inexorably advancing at a rate of 3 metres every single day for years on end, that will be fairly traumatic, will certainly become part of the community history handed down orally and may well prompt religious speculations as to what is causing it and why this trauma should have been visited on them. And then, like a fisherman's tale, the story becomes embellished and made more dramatic.

Read the end notes of the paper. That is the point the authors make.

I agree that it would be traumatic and memorable, but I think the Flood story in Genesis comes from Sumer and is based on spring floods in the Euphrates river basin.

There is a lot of evidence that many firsts like irrigation and sail boats came from Mesopotamia.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
There is no flood footprint in Lebanon or Saudi Arabia. The flood was in the Euphrates river basin or perhaps the whole basin of the Tigris and Euphrates. Look at a map.. Notice the delta south of Basra.

de287bc3-9228-4721-a8fe-ba76a7049e53.png

In Sumer of Abraham's supposed time the earth was where the sky met the horizon.
I should have qualified this a little better - we know of no Middle East wide flood, nor any
European wide flood. And certainly, Noah didn't come to Australia to collect kangaroos.
 
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