A Flood of Nonsense

exchemist said:

Not as funny as all that. I read a rather good paper a year or two ago suggesting that the biblical flood myth could have been inspired by the progressive flooding of the Persian Gulf, after the end of the last Ice age as sea levels rose. The Shatt-al-Arab would at that time have flowed through the foreland basin that we now call the Gulf to the Straits of Hormuz and it is likely the area would have been populated. The paper estimated, that due to the shallowness of the incline, the sea might easily have advanced at a rate of the order of a metre per day, for thousands of years, forcing people to move.

Although it can only be speculation, it is certainly possible to imagine that such a long but disruptive process might have made its way into folklore and become gradually twisted into a myth of a more sudden but equally "global"-seeming flood, among the peoples of Mesopotamia.

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Millions years ago the Persian Gulf was a river … and in the process of becoming a shallow gulf that opens on to the Indian ocean the whole peninsula is still gradually tilting to the East... and the Red Sea is still getting wider. None of that is catastrophic flooding.. Its creeping change.

PruePhillip said:

The big issue with the bible saying the world was flooded was that different people at different times in
"bible times" saw the "earth" as something altogether different. In Jesus' time the "world" meant the
Roman Empire, even though they understood there was Africa, Parthia, Germania and the like out there.
And the "earth" wasn't a planet - a planet was a wandering star.
Methinks a flooded "world" was a flooded Middle East.

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There is no flood footprint in Lebanon or Saudi Arabia. The flood was in the Euphrates river basin or perhaps the whole basin of the Tigris and Euphrates. Look at a map.. Notice the delta south of Basra.

sooda said:

Where would he get astrological data from the past?

He isn't a "scientist" so why do you say science isn't always honest?

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That is a common claim by believers in woo woo. One that they can never support. But a meteor event is one of several hypotheses for the cause of the Younger Dryas. Often woo woo claims come from a possible event, though they are often exaggerated.

shmogie said:

Once again, a post with the sole purpose of attacking Christianity. That is the sole purpose of every post from this person.

How long can taqqiya hold in shielding this persons motives ?

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The thing is, he won't be the first nor last to attack the Bible, and apparently God (God blew it. he says)
Where are those who attacked both? In the dirt.
Where is the Bible? The most widely available book.
Where are Bible lovers? Millions.
I haven't seen that change.

nPeace said:

The thing is, he won't be the first nor last to attack the Bible, and apparently God (God blew it. he says)
Where are those who attacked both? In the dirt.
Where is the Bible? The most widely available book.
Where are Bible lovers? Millions.
I haven't seen that change.

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How is showing that parts of the Bible to be mythological "attacking the Bible" ? This is a claim of fundamentalists that makes no sense. It also demonstrates a lack of understanding of the Commandment against false idols.

nPeace said:

The thing is, he won't be the first nor last to attack the Bible, and apparently God (God blew it. he says)
Where are those who attacked both? In the dirt.
Where is the Bible? The most widely available book.
Where are Bible lovers? Millions.
I haven't seen that change.

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God brought the "global flood" to destroy the Nephilim and yet the Nephilim are around in the Book of Numbers.

The resurrection of the giants. Nephilim after the flood ...
www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/giant.html
In the book of Genesis we read that, "the Nephilim (giants) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown." (Genesis Chapter 6 verse 4) The phrase 'and also afterwards' is a later addition in an...

sooda said:

Millions years ago the Persian Gulf was a river … and in the process of becoming a shallow gulf that opens on to the Indian ocean the whole peninsula is still gradually tilting to the East... and the Red Sea is still getting wider. None of that is catastrophic flooding.. Its creeping change.

Click to expand...

No, that is incorrect. The Persian Gulf is a Foreland Basin to the Zagros mountains. It thus formed as a depressed area of land due to the tectonic process that raised the mountains - quite independently of whether a river ran through it or not. Foreland basin - Wikipedia
The merged Tigris and Euphrates would of course have run through it when the sea level was lower, during the last ice age, but played no part in forming it.

It was flooded, quite rapidly after the end of the ice age, according to the paper. As I say, they mention a rate of encroachment of a metre per day or thereabouts, which is pretty dramatic if you live there.

sun rise said:

12,800 Years Ago, Earth Was Struck by a Disintegrating Comet, Setting Off Global Firestorms - Universe Today - that's the science. What someone does with it is something else.

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It is simply a well documented strike of large comet pieces that indeed impacted the climate and life on earth including humans.

sooda said:

I'm sure Graham Handcock is a fun read, but I wouldn't take him seriously.

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I mentioned Immanuel Velikovsky, because his books were total nonsense, but millions took him seriously, and his pulp fiction books were best sellers.

exchemist said:

No, that is incorrect. The Persian Gulf is a Foreland Basin to the Zagros mountains. It thus formed as a depressed area of land due to the tectonic process that raised the mountains - quite independently of whether a river ran through it or not. Foreland basin - Wikipedia
The merged Tigris and Euphrates would of course have run through it when the sea level was lower, during the last ice age, but played no part in forming it.

It was flooded, quite rapidly after the end of the ice age, according to the paper. As I say, they mention a rate of encroachment of a metre per day or thereabouts, which is pretty dramatic if you live there.

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I read your link and I still have no clue what foreland basin means. I know that the whole peninsula is tilting east and that over time the Persian Gulf became wider and shallower. KSA has been buried in Geologists since 1940.

The Persian Gulf resides in the Persian Gulf Basin, which is of Cenozoic origin and related to the subduction of the Arabian Plate under the Zagros Mountains.[7] The current flooding of the basin started 15,000 years ago due to rising sea levels of the Holocene glacial retreat.

Persian Gulf Basin - Wikipedia

sooda said:

God brought the "global flood" to destroy the Nephilim and yet the Nephilim are around in the Book of Numbers.

The resurrection of the giants. Nephilim after the flood ...
www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/giant.html
In the book of Genesis we read that, "the Nephilim (giants) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown." (Genesis Chapter 6 verse 4) The phrase 'and also afterwards' is a later addition in an...

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Perhaps read it again.
You seem to be taking skeptics views, and not trying to understand for yourself.
When you read it, think about this: Is the narrator or author telling us about an event, or are these the views of others, and who are they?

According to the scriptures, the Nephilim all died in the flood.
What these people saw were described in Deuteronomy 9:1, 2.

Let me try to help.
The scriptures specifically says of those complainers...
Numbers 13:25-32
25 At the end of 40 days, they returned from spying out the land. 26 So they came back to Moses and Aaron and all the assembly of the Israelites in the wilderness of Paʹran, at Kaʹdesh. They brought back a report to all the assembly and showed them the fruitage of the land. 27 This is what they reported to Moses: “We entered the land into which you sent us, and it is indeed flowing with milk and honey, and this is its fruitage. 28 Nevertheless, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the fortified cities are very great. We also saw the Anʹa·kim there. 29 The A·malʹek·ites are dwelling in the land of the Negʹeb, and the Hitʹtites, the Jebʹu·sites, and the Amʹor·ites are dwelling in the mountainous region, and the Caʹnaan·ites are dwelling by the sea and along the Jordan.” 30 Then Caʹleb tried to calm the people as they stood before Moses by saying: “Let us go up immediately, and we are sure to take possession of it, because we can surely conquer it.” 31 But the men who went up with him said: “We are not able to go up against the people, because they are stronger than we are.” 32 And they kept on giving the Israelites a bad report about the land that they had spied out, saying: “The land that we passed through to spy out is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of extraordinary size. 33 And there we saw the Nephʹi·lim, the sons of Aʹnak, who are from the Nephʹi·lim, and in comparison we seemed like grasshoppers, both to us and to them.”

It seems evident to me, the cowards first told it as it was, but when Caleb and Joshua tried to counter, they resorted to extremes.

Please excuse my self-righteousness sooda, but apparently you are wrong.
I am only trying to guide you from misguided skeptics who do not understand what they read. After all, you know what Jesus said about the blind leading the blind, and I wouldn't want to know you fell into a pit.
... and I did nothing to help.

nPeace said:

Perhaps read it again.
You seem to be taking skeptics views, and not trying to understand for yourself.
When you read it, think about this: Is the narrator or author telling us about an event, or are these the views of others, and who are they?

According to the scriptures, the Nephilim all died in the flood.
What these people saw were described in Deuteronomy 9:1, 2.

Let me try to help.
The scriptures specifically says of those complainers...
Numbers 13:25-32
25 At the end of 40 days, they returned from spying out the land. 26 So they came back to Moses and Aaron and all the assembly of the Israelites in the wilderness of Paʹran, at Kaʹdesh. They brought back a report to all the assembly and showed them the fruitage of the land. 27 This is what they reported to Moses: “We entered the land into which you sent us, and it is indeed flowing with milk and honey, and this is its fruitage. 28 Nevertheless, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the fortified cities are very great. We also saw the Anʹa·kim there. 29 The A·malʹek·ites are dwelling in the land of the Negʹeb, and the Hitʹtites, the Jebʹu·sites, and the Amʹor·ites are dwelling in the mountainous region, and the Caʹnaan·ites are dwelling by the sea and along the Jordan.” 30 Then Caʹleb tried to calm the people as they stood before Moses by saying: “Let us go up immediately, and we are sure to take possession of it, because we can surely conquer it.” 31 But the men who went up with him said: “We are not able to go up against the people, because they are stronger than we are.” 32 And they kept on giving the Israelites a bad report about the land that they had spied out, saying: “The land that we passed through to spy out is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of extraordinary size. 33 And there we saw the Nephʹi·lim, the sons of Aʹnak, who are from the Nephʹi·lim, and in comparison we seemed like grasshoppers, both to us and to them.”

It seems evident to me, the cowards first told it as it was, but when Caleb and Joshua tried to counter, they resorted to extremes.

Please excuse my self-righteousness sooda, but apparently you are wrong.
I am only trying to guide you from misguided skeptics who do not understand what they read. After all, you know what Jesus said about the blind leading the blind, and I wouldn't want to know you fell into a pit.
... and I did nothing to help.

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"‘And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim); and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.' Then all the congregation raised a loud cry; and the people wept that night." (Numbers Chapter 13 verse 33)

The passage is clearly contradictory for we are explicitly told that the sons of Anak were descendants of Nephilim, who perished in the flood. The reappearance of the Nephilim is a tradition unique to the book of Numbers. It is also interesting to note that these sons of Anak are mentioned in Numbers and then in the event is mentioned in summary form in Deuteronomy.

This indicates that either a reference to Nephilim was added later to Deuteronomy, or that the book of Deuteronomy was composed later than Numbers. If this was the case then the author of Deuteronomy was familiar with the Numbers narrative, and deliberately chose to contradict the story line presented there on a number of very significant points.


According to 2 Samuel..

Goliath was a descendant of the Nephilim—the offspring of the “sons of God” and their human wives. The Israelites failed to wipe out the Anakites—a subset of the Nephilim—in their conquest of the Promised Land, and so the Anakites survived in Gath and its surrounding cities,

The Political Compass

( I know this formatting is very difficult)

The Gulf Oasis would have been a shallow inland basin exposed from about 75,000 years ago until 8,000 years ago, forming the southern tip of the Fertile Crescent, according to historical sea-level records.

And it would have been an ideal refuge from the harsh deserts surrounding it, with fresh water supplied by the Tigris, Euphrates, Karun and Wadi Baton Rivers, as well as by upwelling springs, Rose said. And during the last ice age when conditions were at their driest, this basin would've been at its largest.

In fact, in recent years, archaeologists have turned up evidence of a wave of human settlements along the shores of the Gulf dating to about 7,500 years ago.

"Where before there had been but a handful of scattered hunting camps, suddenly, over 60 new archaeological sites appear virtually overnight," Rose said. "These settlements boast well-built, permanent stone houses, long-distance trade networks, elaborately decorated pottery, domesticated animals, and even evidence for one of the oldest boats in the world."

Rather than quickly evolving settlements, Rose thinks precursor populations did exist but have remained hidden beneath the Gulf. [History's 10 Most Overlooked Mysteries ]

"Perhaps it is no coincidence that the founding of such remarkably well developed communities along the shoreline corresponds with the flooding of the Persian Gulf basin around 8,000 years ago," Rose said. "These new colonists may have come from the heart of the Gulf, displaced by rising water levels that plunged the once fertile landscape beneath the waters of the Indian Ocean."

Ironclad case?

The most definitive evidence of these human camps in the Gulf comes from a new archaeological site called Jebel Faya 1 within the Gulf basin that was discovered four years ago. There, Hans-Peter Uerpmann of the University of Tubingen in Germany found three different Paleolithic settlements occurring from about 125,000 to 25,000 years ago. That and other archaeological sites, Rose said, indicate "that early human groups were living around the Gulf basin throughout the Late Pleistocene."

To make an ironclad case for such human occupation during the Paleolithic, or early Stone Age, of the now-submerged landmass, Rose said scientists would need to find any evidence of stone tools scattered under the Gulf. "As for the Neolithic, it would be wonderful to find some evidence for human-built structures," dated to that time period in the Gulf, Rose said.

Carter said in order to make for a solid case, "we would need to find a submerged site, and excavate it underwater. This would likely only happen as the culmination of years of survey in carefully selected areas."

Cerny said a sealed-tight case could be made with "some fossils of the anatomically modern humans some 100,000 years old found in South Arabia."

And there's a hint of mythology here, too, Rose pointed out. "Nearly every civilization living in southern Mesopotamia has told some form of the flood myth. While the names might change, the content and structure are consistent from 2,500 B.C. to the Genesis account to the Qur'anic version," Rose said.

Perhaps evidence beneath the Gulf? "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands," said Rose, quoting Douglas Adams.

• T

sooda said:

I read your link and I still have no clue what foreland basin means. I know that the whole peninsula is tilting east and that over time the Persian Gulf became wider and shallower. KSA has been buried in Geologists since 1940.

The Persian Gulf resides in the Persian Gulf Basin, which is of Cenozoic origin and related to the subduction of the Arabian Plate under the Zagros Mountains.[7] The current flooding of the basin started 15,000 years ago due to rising sea levels of the Holocene glacial retreat.

Persian Gulf Basin - Wikipedia

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The Wiki link explains what a Foreland Basin is - actually with a pic of the Persian Gulf as an example.

But I have now dug up the paper I was talking about. It's from 2006, in the Journal of Island and Coastal Archaeology. Why don't you read it yourself and see what you think:
http://php.scripts.psu.edu/dept/liberalarts/sites/kennett/pdf/Kennett_Kennett2006.pdf

nPeace said:

Perhaps read it again.
You seem to be taking skeptics views, and not trying to understand for yourself.
When you read it, think about this: Is the narrator or author telling us about an event, or are these the views of others, and who are they?

According to the scriptures, the Nephilim all died in the flood.
What these people saw were described in Deuteronomy 9:1, 2.

Let me try to help.
The scriptures specifically says of those complainers...
Numbers 13:25-32
25 At the end of 40 days, they returned from spying out the land. 26 So they came back to Moses and Aaron and all the assembly of the Israelites in the wilderness of Paʹran, at Kaʹdesh. They brought back a report to all the assembly and showed them the fruitage of the land. 27 This is what they reported to Moses: “We entered the land into which you sent us, and it is indeed flowing with milk and honey, and this is its fruitage. 28 Nevertheless, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the fortified cities are very great. We also saw the Anʹa·kim there. 29 The A·malʹek·ites are dwelling in the land of the Negʹeb, and the Hitʹtites, the Jebʹu·sites, and the Amʹor·ites are dwelling in the mountainous region, and the Caʹnaan·ites are dwelling by the sea and along the Jordan.” 30 Then Caʹleb tried to calm the people as they stood before Moses by saying: “Let us go up immediately, and we are sure to take possession of it, because we can surely conquer it.” 31 But the men who went up with him said: “We are not able to go up against the people, because they are stronger than we are.” 32 And they kept on giving the Israelites a bad report about the land that they had spied out, saying: “The land that we passed through to spy out is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of extraordinary size. 33 And there we saw the Nephʹi·lim, the sons of Aʹnak, who are from the Nephʹi·lim, and in comparison we seemed like grasshoppers, both to us and to them.”

It seems evident to me, the cowards first told it as it was, but when Caleb and Joshua tried to counter, they resorted to extremes.

Please excuse my self-righteousness sooda, but apparently you are wrong.
I am only trying to guide you from misguided skeptics who do not understand what they read. After all, you know what Jesus said about the blind leading the blind, and I wouldn't want to know you fell into a pit.
... and I did nothing to help.

Click to expand...

Well if nothing else I am delighted to see you acknowledge the need to interpret the bible, and not to just try to take it literally, word for word, as some people do.

sooda said:

"‘And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim); and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.' Then all the congregation raised a loud cry; and the people wept that night." (Numbers Chapter 13 verse 33)

The passage is clearly contradictory for we are explicitly told that the sons of Anak were descendants of Nephilim, who perished in the flood. The reappearance of the Nephilim is a tradition unique to the book of Numbers. It is also interesting to note that these sons of Anak are mentioned in Numbers and then in the event is mentioned in summary form in Deuteronomy.

This indicates that either a reference to Nephilim was added later to Deuteronomy, or that the book of Deuteronomy was composed later than Numbers. If this was the case then the author of Deuteronomy was familiar with the Numbers narrative, and deliberately chose to contradict the story line presented there on a number of very significant points.


According to 2 Samuel..

Goliath was a descendant of the Nephilim—the offspring of the “sons of God” and their human wives. The Israelites failed to wipe out the Anakites—a subset of the Nephilim—in their conquest of the Promised Land, and so the Anakites survived in Gath and its surrounding cities,

Click to expand...

Oh dear.
Who told us "that the sons of Anak were descendants of Nephilim"?

Deuteronomy 1:1-5
1 These are the words that Moses spoke to all Israel in the region of the Jordan in the wilderness, on the desert plains in front of Suph, between Paʹran, Toʹphel, Laʹban, Ha·zeʹroth, and Diʹza·hab.

4 This was after he defeated Siʹhon the king of the Amʹor·ites, who was dwelling in Heshʹbon, and Og the king of Baʹshan, who was dwelling in Ashʹta·roth, in Edʹre·i. 5 In the region of the Jordan in the land of Moʹab, Moses undertook to explain this Law, saying:

What contradiction are you talking about? Numbers 21:23, 24

exchemist said:

Well if nothing else I am delighted to see you acknowledge the need to interpret the bible, and not to just try to take it literally, word for word, as some people do.

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All it takes is getting to know something, or someone, for yourself, rather than listen to hearsay, or assume that someone or something, must be the same as another, just because they fall into a particular category.
I find people often are quick to put all eggs in the same basket, so when they think they have the egg of a chicken, it actually is a reptile's - a large lizard.

sooda said:

According to 2 Samuel..

Goliath was a descendant of the Nephilim—the offspring of the “sons of God” and their human wives. The Israelites failed to wipe out the Anakites—a subset of the Nephilim—in their conquest of the Promised Land, and so the Anakites survived in Gathand its surrounding cities,

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@sooda No, that seems more like, according to sooda.
Where in 2 Samuel? Please show us. I don't see it.

exchemist said:

The Wiki link explains what a Foreland Basin is - actually with a pic of the Persian Gulf as an example.

But I have now dug up the paper I was talking about. It's from 2006, in the Journal of Island and Coastal Archaeology. Why don't you read it yourself and see what you think:
http://php.scripts.psu.edu/dept/liberalarts/sites/kennett/pdf/Kennett_Kennett2006.pdf

Click to expand...

Good link.. thanks. Did you see the development of the Ur Schatt River into the Persian Gulf?

Interesting information about temples and the Uruk and Ubaid civilizations.

So much came out of those city states including irrigation.

nPeace said:

@sooda No, that seems more like, according to sooda.
Where in 2 Samuel? Please show us. I don't see it.

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Who were the Anakim / Anakites? - GotQuestions.org
https://www.gotquestions.org/Anakim.html
Question: "Who were the Anakim / Anakites?" Answer: The Anakim/Anakites were a formidable race of giant, warlike people (Deuteronomy 2:10, 21; 9:2) who occupied the lands of southern Israel near Hebron before the arrival of the Israelites (Joshua 15:13). The Anakim’s ancestry has been traced back to Anak, the son of Arba (Joshua 15:13; 21:11), who at that time was regarded as the “greatest ...


2 Samuel 21:15-22