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12 dead in Virginia Beach mass shooting

esmith

Veteran Member
The above is complete nonsense. Every country has its fair share of those that are mentally ill, and yet comparative homicide rates are MUCH higher here in the States than in any other industrialized country.

Secondly, for one to assume that all or even most of these homicides are caused by mentally ill patients goes against the fact that most of them do not have a record of such, plus there's the fact that most of us at one time or another will suffer at least some depression in our lives, plus also there's the simple fact that sometimes even the best of people can loose their tempers. All countries have such conditions, but why is the American rate so much higher than the other industrialized countries?

We have an estimated 300,000,000 guns in circulation in the U.S., which is almost 1 gun per man, woman, and child, so can you explain what all these guns in circulation is not making us a safer country as compared to Canada, Australia, Japan, and countries in western Europe?

At this point, common sense should tell you that you cannot be right on this, but it's clear that your love of your guns is far more important than common sense and people's lives. And polls now show that most Americans do not agree with you on this, thus believing that there are common sense measures that should be taken to reduce the carnage of not only mass murders but also day to day murders as well.

nuf sed
First I was not saying that all of the incidents were cause by the mentally ill, (however to do what they did indicates some form of mental problem don't you agree)

Second you say that the homicide rates are much higher in the US than any other industrialized country. Depends on how you "cherry pick" your countries. In actuality according to https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5/rankings]Source[/url] the US ranks 83rd among all countries. But you said "industrialized countries". Are Russia, Mexico, Brazil, Greenland, Pakistan,and Argentina to name a few that have higher intentional homicide rates than the U.S.

To the rest of your agenda I suggest you read and understand the following, that is if you are capable of reading the article with an open mind.
The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries | Ryan McMaken


You say common sense measures. How about enforcing the existing laws, go after those that violate them. How about mandatory sentencing for the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime, without the possibility of parole during the mandatory period of time that has to be served last.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
First I was not saying that all of the incidents were cause by the mentally ill, (however to do what they did indicates some form of mental problem don't you agree)

Second you say that the homicide rates are much higher in the US than any other industrialized country. Depends on how you "cherry pick" your countries. In actuality according to https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5/rankings]Source[/url] the US ranks 83rd among all countries. But you said "industrialized countries". Are Russia, Mexico, Brazil, Greenland, Pakistan,and Argentina to name a few that have higher intentional homicide rates than the U.S.

To the rest of your agenda I suggest you read and understand the following, that is if you are capable of reading the article with an open mind.
The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries | Ryan McMaken


You say common sense measures. How about enforcing the existing laws, go after those that violate them. How about mandatory sentencing for the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime, without the possibility of parole during the mandatory period of time that has to be served last.

"Common sense" means, "I am not only virtue signaling,
but, you are opposed to / incapable of common sense."

As if there were simple obvious solutions!!

BTW, your "mandatory for use in crime" thing...

Shooting a robin on the farm with a .22 is a crime.

A woman raped with a knife to her throat is not
less violated than threatened with a gun.

Longer sentencing is no more a magic bullet
than is "common sense".
 

esmith

Veteran Member
"Common sense" means, "I am not only virtue signaling,
but, you are opposed to / incapable of common sense."

As if there were simple obvious solutions!!

BTW, your "mandatory for use in crime" thing...

Shooting a robin on the farm with a .22 is a crime.

A woman raped with a knife to her throat is not
less violated than threatened with a gun.

Longer sentencing is no more a magic bullet
than is "common sense".
Ok, let's go with committing a felony with a firearm vice just a crime.
If longer sentencing is no more a magic bullet then why are there different sentencing guide lines for different felonies. Look at robbery/breaking and entering/burglary. Try manslaughter/murder.

There is no difference between rape with the use of a knife or a firearm as the threatening device. But we are discussing crimes committed with a firearm.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But you said "industrialized countries". Are Russia, Mexico, Brazil, Greenland, Pakistan,and Argentina to name a few that have higher intentional homicide rates than the U.S.
These are not "Industrialized countries".

You say common sense measures. How about enforcing the existing laws, go after those that violate them. How about mandatory sentencing for the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime, without the possibility of parole during the mandatory period of time that has to be served last.
Those are "solutions" after the fact, thus are not preventative leading up to the fact. Plus they're really not much "solutions" to begin with.

For example, longer sentences has much less of an effect on deterring crime than having more police on the streets. Why? Glad you asked. Because criminals don't intend to get caught, but if the chances are significantly greater that they will get caught, that offers a far better deterrent.

Also, significant penalties for even possession of an illegal gun is more preventative. In the UK in the 1950's, they passed a law whereas they could give a person with an illegal gun, or carrying a legal gun illegally, up to 10 years even if another crime wasn't committed. The effect was significant, so the French did much the same and with the same positive effect.

Maybe consider taking a course or two in criminology.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
These are not "Industrialized countries".
Russia is not an "industrialized country". Where did you come to that conclusion, pull it out of you know where.

Those are "solutions" after the fact, thus are not preventative leading up to the fact. Plus they're really not much "solutions" to begin with.

For example, longer sentences has much less of an effect on deterring crime than having more police on the streets. Why? Glad you asked. Because criminals don't intend to get caught, but if the chances are significantly greater that they will get caught, that offers a far better deterrent.

Also, significant penalties for even possession of an illegal gun is more preventative. In the UK in the 1950's, they passed a law whereas they could give a person with an illegal gun, or carrying a legal gun illegally, up to 10 years even if another crime wasn't committed. The effect was significant, so the French did much the same and with the same positive effect.

Maybe consider taking a course or two in criminology.
In one sentence you say the ideas of longer prison time for using a firearm in the commission of a felony is not a solution and longer sentences has much less of an effect on deterring crime. Then you turn around a say significant penalties for even possession of an illegal gun is more preventative, using the UK as your example.
You can't have it both ways. Maybe you need to take a course or two in reasoning.

In one of your posts you said, and I quote: "We have an estimated 300,000,000 guns in circulation in the U.S., which is almost 1 gun per man, woman, and child, so can you explain what all these guns in circulation is not making us a safer country as compared to Canada, Australia, Japan, and countries in western Europe? "

Well to start with the number of firearms in the country does not reflect the number of persons that own a firearm. You do realize that don't you, or is this another one of your illogical talking points.

Try facts instead of false talking points, say the below.
http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-day-more-guns-less-gun-violence-between-1993-and-2013/
from the article:

"So after all the pro-gun control grandstanding and the relentless focus on how the so-called easy availability of guns drives up crime, the CRS report shows that more guns–especially more concealable guns–has actually correlated with less crime."
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Definitely the decade of the Psychopaths.
I think there just are a lot more people. The population has gone up. There are 400 thousand people living in Virginia Beach, one of 4 cities connected at the borders and in that entire area of four cities over a million. This means the city is very safe to walk around in and not get shot at. The anti gun political activists presume that guns are the top issue of the day and the one thing to vote against. They are not. Removing guns will not change a thing. Here is why:

The problem here is the fear mongering of the news and of the ministry (but mostly the ministry). News folk don't report but instead want to comment on the news, and so .00000025 proportion of events they concentrate on. Ministers are continually stirring people to action against each other and their neighbors through claims of Satanic blah blah. "Smoking, drinking, dancing, music, anything fun is Satanic. TV is Satanic." Its all so much guilt and self propping like "There are ministers who won't teach you the truth like you are taught here, but this is a full gospel church." Most churches are so creepy you'd run away screaming. They are like temples to little gods. Virginia Beach has no public squares other than out of the way parks or malls. The only thing anybody has near them that is at all like a public square is a church. The churches aren't at all doing what they should. Thus the neighborhoods are filled with fear. Thus when the news reports 1 out of 400000 is a killer, everybody is scared. It won't matter if you eliminate every gun. Something will still be there, lurking; trying to snatch away the children.
 
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