gnostic
The Lost One
But wouldn’t a metaphysician question if the baseball is really there or is it just an illusion of a baseball?
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Metaphysics: Is metaphysics better than science?
- Thread starter gnostic
- Start date
Skwim
Veteran Member
cladking
Well-Known Member
Maybe you wouldn't say this if you understood what "reading" is. Maybe you would understand "reading" if you read my posts. You use a brain programmed by modern language (remember the "brocas area?) to look at a sequence of words and deconstruct them in order and in real time. But will you challenge this statement or show evidence it's wrong? NO. You won;'t do it because I'm stupid and you know better so instead you ignore it and look for key words (like metaphysics) to talk about without once discussing any of what I'm trying to communicate. I address your every point and you address none of mine.
Even after I've told you dozens of times nobody can read Ancient Language and it can't even be translated you post things like this and the rest of your post I didn't quote because I've addressed them many times.
Animal languages are metaphysical because this is the way their syntax, grammar, and vocabulary work. The ancients couldn't read Ancient Language either because AL is not deconstructed; rather the "meaning appears as lotus blossoms under the river". When they heard a sentence the thought of the author came into view because they didn't deconstruct the meaning in real time as we do.
I can't think like the authors because just like you and everyone else I see and model my beliefs preferentially to everything else. But I bothered to solve the word meanings in context so I could come to model their rules of grammar. From these mental models I've constructed I've come to understand not just how the pyramids were built or the metaphysics of ancient science but I can also deconstruct a lot of their science. When we deconstruct out confused language we can come to understand what the speaker believes. When ancient words are deconstructed you can come to understand what the ancient speaker knew; ancient science, and language was its metaphysics.
But you are not deconstructing my words correctly or you are simply ignoring them because they don't fit with your beliefs. Rather than addressing the words you are playing semantics and ignoring their meaning.
I believe I am the only person who understands Ancient Language and I did it by solving word meaning for what each word would have to mean for the sentence to be logical, correct, and coherent.
Tefnut really did "make the earth high under the sky by means of her arms". This is how they built the pyramids and it is why they said the "gods" built them.
cladking
Well-Known Member
I understand your point and don't really disagree but I'd say if metaphysics is a baseball then experiment is the rules of the game and reality is the final score.
"Observation" is doing the pitching.
There are no coaches though and analogies always break down if looked at too closely.
It's certainly romantic.
gnostic
The Lost One
But you still don’t understand cladking, that no where in metaphysics that proposed to “do experiment”, to “do testing” or to “find evidences”, not even in Metaphysical Naturalism.
I think you are confusing Metaphysical Naturalism with Methodological Naturalism. Metaphysical Naturalism, like all areas of metaphysics, only proposed making assumptions, with no evidences necessary.
Methodological Naturalism is the one that advocate evidence finding, evidence-gathering and experiments.
cladking
Well-Known Member
"Observation" is doing the pitching
No!
I am defining the word "metaphysics' as the physical, natural, literal, and real basis of science.
cladking
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
It is quite obvious once we can accept the idea that ancient people didn't think like we do. They didn't really "think" at all in terms we would recognize which is why they lacked words for thought.
"He knew the form of speech of the baboons and the ibises. He went about truly (?) in the hall of the dog. He did not restrain their barking. He understood the barkings of these and these cries of the land of the fathers … He made the four pleas (?) of the wild beasts, one by one … He understood them."
"These dogs, these jackals, these baboons, these snakes which prophesize according to their utterances … […].90 I have seen (?) the dogs which are as scribes (?) […].91 […] writing of the dog […].92 […] these sacred animals which open up the storeroom"
Even the animals which modeled reality could predict the future to a limited extent.
This is why they said things like the meaning emerges like the blossoms of lotus under the river. This is why they said they acted the second moment after perception. Ancient people were programmed by a natural language that used the same formatting as the wiring of the brain and reality itself. This is very difficult for us to see because we model our beliefs and these concepts lie far outside of our beliefs.
It's hardly my contention that Ancient Language or ancient science was necessarily superior in any way. However, this perspective and this understanding are important for modern people for several reasons and, perhaps, most chief of all is that we recognize our own vast and enormous ignorance. One of the strengths of ancient thought and what made the science as powerful as it was is that from this perspective anomalies are far more visible and most human progress even today is the examination of anomalies. We tend to be so sure of ourselves we don't even see the anomalies taking place around us all the time. we see what we believe.
Why can't it be the simple metaphor that it appears to be, though?
cladking
Well-Known Member
If it were this one thing, then sure, why not?
But every single thing they said makes sense literally. Everything they said hangs together and is in agreement with the laws of nature and the physical evidence that says the pyramids were a manifestation of their science and language was its metaphysics.
cladking
Well-Known Member
"...meaning emerges like the blossoms of lotus under the river."
Bear in mind that this specific line dates to a later time and probably is a metaphor. But there's no evidence that Ancient Language employs metaphor, simile, or even symbols. They simply didn't have the words and there were almost no words at all other than nouns. Think of the few words as programming and the nouns as numbers and there are numerous similarities to computer language.
cladking
Well-Known Member
I understand that these are difficult concepts for people to see. But they aren't difficult because they are complex (they are quite simple) but because it all flies in the face of what we expect and what we believe. Indeed, the only unique aspect of my entire theory is the existence of a metaphysical language which has, to my knowledge, never really been proposed or imagined previously. Who can imagine we have to teach English to animals because we can't imagine metaphysical language?!!! This is an astounding concept in its own right. Of course computer language is a sort of metaphysical language but we don't think of it in these terms because it has been dumbed down to the point that a computer can understand it. And just like Ancient Language it is even digital.
Utterance 538.
1302a. To say: Back, thou lowing ox.
1302b. Thy head is in the hand of Horus; thy tail is in the hand of Isis;
1302c. the fingers of Atum are at thy horns.
Here the traditional explanation is that it requires three Gods to subdue a little 300 lb ox. How can their gods be so weak and ineffective that at one moment "Tefnut" is single handedly (literally) building the pyramid and in the next it requires three of their most powerful Gods to control a dumb beast? But we don't expect these primitive and ignorant savages who toiled dragging stones up ramps to ever make any sense so why would their gods make sense? Of course their Gods were ineffectual and stank to high heaven and the people were wholly confused. THIS IS WHAT WE EXPECT.
The reality is very different. This is a description of the loading of a linear funicular. Horus grasps the head of the Bull of Heaven in which the stones sit as "isis" pulls the sled up by its tail. The ability of atum to manipulate things at a distance has the "horn" of the bull. The bull 'lows" because that is the sound of the heavy sled on the timbers.
We don't expect language to ever agree with the laws of physics so we would never notice when it does. It's a million times harder to notice when the science that defines these laws of physics is wholly different than our science. Ancient science didn't even have "laws". It had only theory and each theory was expressed as a thing we mistakenly and laughingly translate as "God". There were no "Gods". The reality is every "god" was just a different theory expressed in the same metaphysical language that gave rise to pyramids and our very very confused languages.
Utterance 538.
1302a. To say: Back, thou lowing ox.
1302b. Thy head is in the hand of Horus; thy tail is in the hand of Isis;
1302c. the fingers of Atum are at thy horns.
Here the traditional explanation is that it requires three Gods to subdue a little 300 lb ox. How can their gods be so weak and ineffective that at one moment "Tefnut" is single handedly (literally) building the pyramid and in the next it requires three of their most powerful Gods to control a dumb beast? But we don't expect these primitive and ignorant savages who toiled dragging stones up ramps to ever make any sense so why would their gods make sense? Of course their Gods were ineffectual and stank to high heaven and the people were wholly confused. THIS IS WHAT WE EXPECT.
The reality is very different. This is a description of the loading of a linear funicular. Horus grasps the head of the Bull of Heaven in which the stones sit as "isis" pulls the sled up by its tail. The ability of atum to manipulate things at a distance has the "horn" of the bull. The bull 'lows" because that is the sound of the heavy sled on the timbers.
We don't expect language to ever agree with the laws of physics so we would never notice when it does. It's a million times harder to notice when the science that defines these laws of physics is wholly different than our science. Ancient science didn't even have "laws". It had only theory and each theory was expressed as a thing we mistakenly and laughingly translate as "God". There were no "Gods". The reality is every "god" was just a different theory expressed in the same metaphysical language that gave rise to pyramids and our very very confused languages.
I wish I could frubal your post more than once.
Alas, they don't allow that for canine posters.
Well, part of the problem is that you have never given any reason to think such a language ever existed. Another is that you give no details. And, of course, there is the problem that you never explain what you mean by the phrase 'metaphysical language'. It is hardly a self-evident concept.
Your interpretation seems like a stretch to me. Do you have any actual evidence for this viewpoint?
cladking
Well-Known Member
This is what we are dealing with here. Their "gods" were all exceedingly powerful and could each get the stuffing out of the next but we imagine they were as described in the writing which often suggests they were wimpy, stinky, and incompetent. This exists because of our misinterpretation. The language simply can't be translated to English because in our languages nothing has to make sense or be internally consistent. Anyone can state any balderdash or nonsense in perfect English. BUT THERE ARE NO WORDS OF NONSENSE in a metaphysical language and grammar precludes the ability to state what isn't true. If you tried to say something that made no sense in Ancient Language people would hear gobbledty gook. There is nothing that can be said in English that can't be deconstructed wrong so AL simply can't be translated. Fortunately it is easy to understand anyway if you accept it literally;
1405a. To say: The earth is high under the sky by (means of) thine arms, Tefnut.
The ability of tefnut to lift is the means by which the earth is made high.
"Downward" operating at arms length is the means by which the pyramid is built.
The water filled funicular falling down the side of the pyramid is the means by which the stones are lifted up the other side.
"Tefnut" doesn't sometimes mean "downward" and other times mean something entirely different as Egyptologists propose. Every word in the AL had exactly one single meaning and these "meanings" were never ever "defined". There were no definitions but rather every single word was "named". Its characteristics were assigned to it.
Imagine having stinking, stupid, and powerless Gods!!!! What kind of culture would have such Gods? Obviously we are misinterpreting the language so badly that a silly little book of rituals read at the kings' funerals have been taken as a Holy Bible. Our understandings here are utter nonsense.
cladking
Well-Known Member
Oh, my goodness!
I have nothing but evidence. The amount of evidence to suggest my theory is simply staggering. All the evidence suggests it and almost nothing at all contradicts it. The problem here isn't the lack of evidence but rather the shallowness of the evidence that does exist. While it is exceedingly broad it is somewhat shallow for the main part. Some has significant depth but like all evidence it is open to interpretation.
I'm sure you are referring principally to the Pyramid Texts itself and evidence for it being an expression of metaphysics. I can address this and lay out the evidence in many ways. But there are three things going in; first it is consistent with known law, it is internally consistent, and most of all my interpretation makes prediction.
I'll just concentrate on its internal consistency here. This is shown by each word having only a single meaning and the literal interpretation of each passage being the correct one. This is best shown and is most telling where considering their word which represented what we call "carbon dioxide" (CO2). Indeed, I consider this concept to be virtually proof that this is a metaphysical language which makes no sense when deconstructed. Just as you can't deconstruct an equation you can't deconstruct a language whose meaning equates to 0 = 0 and every utterance has a mathematical relationship to reality.
BRB
You can make this claim, but I don't see anything you've said that backs up this claim. What evidence do you hgave that is 'simply staggering'?
So you claim. Any actual proof of this?
I see no 'proof' of a 'metaphysical language' here at all. It's not even clear that you have a consistent, let alone a correct interpretation.
gnostic
The Lost One
@cladking
Why are you bringing up the pyramid texts here?
You already have a thread, your thread that focused your views on Egypt and Egyptologists. So you don’t to drag your pet topic here.
I preferred that if you focused on metaphysics, and not on Egypt, which have science treatises or engineering treatises about the pyramids.
Without any writing on science, then you have no evidences on your views.
You want to talk about pyramid building and pyramid texts then leave at ancient reality thread.
And btw, you said that metaphors, similes and symbols don’t exist in this nonexistence Ancient Language of yours, well there are no word for metaphysics before 1000 BCE, then if I was to follow your twisted logic, then metaphysics don’t exist prior to 2000 BCE, which is your imaginary cut-off point with the Tower of Babel.
So can metaphysics exist if there are no word for “metaphysics” prior to 2000 BCE? Is that your logic?
Why are you bringing up the pyramid texts here?
You already have a thread, your thread that focused your views on Egypt and Egyptologists. So you don’t to drag your pet topic here.
I preferred that if you focused on metaphysics, and not on Egypt, which have science treatises or engineering treatises about the pyramids.
Without any writing on science, then you have no evidences on your views.
You want to talk about pyramid building and pyramid texts then leave at ancient reality thread.
And btw, you said that metaphors, similes and symbols don’t exist in this nonexistence Ancient Language of yours, well there are no word for metaphysics before 1000 BCE, then if I was to follow your twisted logic, then metaphysics don’t exist prior to 2000 BCE, which is your imaginary cut-off point with the Tower of Babel.
So can metaphysics exist if there are no word for “metaphysics” prior to 2000 BCE? Is that your logic?
cladking
Well-Known Member
I think the best way to show this meaning of "metaphysics" is the ancient word "I3.t-wt.t". The ".t" at the end shows it's a feminine principal which means that it has a hole in it or takes the shape of its container. Every place that it shows up in Ancient Language the term "CO2" can be substituted for it and the sentence will still make sense and be in agreement with reality. Since it is in agreement and is consistent it follows that either every individual author understood the laws of nature or that the language itself was metaphysical in nature.
It seems to me that even one pyramid builder understanding reality is rather remarkable so all of them understanding is much less probable.
2109. The sky trembles, the earth quakes before the god, before N.
2110a. N. [is not enveloped] by the earth;
2110b. "I3.t-wt.t"’, thou art not enveloped by the earth.
2110c. Thy fame is by day; thy fear is by night, as a god, lord of fear.
2110d. Thou commandest the gods like the mighty one, chief of the mighty.
2111. [O] Osiris, the overflow comes, the inundation hastens, Geb groans.
2112a. I have pitied thee with pity; I have smitten him who acted with evil (intent) against thee;
2112b. that thou mayest live, that thou mayest raise thyself up because of thy strength.
2113. O N., [the inundation comes 1, [the overflow hastens], Geb [groans].
2114a. Exult in the divine efflux which is in thee; let thy heart live;
If you solve the writing as I did (with the assumption it makes sense in terms of premises) then you'll find several startling things. All authors shared the exact same premises and these premises were not related to religion, magic, or incantation but rather to the world as they perceived it. You'll find every word had three forms and each form had one single meaning. The first form I call the scientific form and this defines the subject, the second is colloquial and this defined the object (or verb), and the third is the vulgar which defined the meaning (predicate).
"I3.t-wt.t" is the scientific term
"efflux" is the colloquial
"sweat" is the vulgar
CO2 was released in huge quantities in the area the pyramids were built and could kill anything near the ground in temperature inversions or when the wind slowed at night. CO2 also caused the earth to tremble before an eruption and was closely observed and studied during the day.
Ancient metaphysics (language) is unique to animals and ancient people and is based on consciousness. The wiring in the brain that gives birth to consciousness also gives birth to a species specific language that is (probably) formatted similarly in all species. But consciousness based metaphysics can't work for modern humans because we are our beliefs. We operate and understand our world in terms of our beliefs so everything we produce individually is a reflection of beliefs rather than science. ONLY experiment can tie our beliefs to reality. Yes, "experiment" can be more loosely defined and this remains true but the fact remains that expert opinion has no real value except in specific and undefinable instances. This makes "peer review" counterproductive and wrong. It is misleading and a rubber stamp on the status quo. It is why applied science is stuck in the 1880's. We got off the track because we forgot the meaning of science.
The reality is much of what we believe simply isn't true and has never been tested. We are not the crown of creation and wysiwyg is no way to understand anything.
"I3.t-wt.t" translates as "risings begetter" because it causes cakes to rise and foam on beer. It also caused atum to stand at zep tepi.
It seems to me that even one pyramid builder understanding reality is rather remarkable so all of them understanding is much less probable.
2109. The sky trembles, the earth quakes before the god, before N.
2110a. N. [is not enveloped] by the earth;
2110b. "I3.t-wt.t"’, thou art not enveloped by the earth.
2110c. Thy fame is by day; thy fear is by night, as a god, lord of fear.
2110d. Thou commandest the gods like the mighty one, chief of the mighty.
2111. [O] Osiris, the overflow comes, the inundation hastens, Geb groans.
2112a. I have pitied thee with pity; I have smitten him who acted with evil (intent) against thee;
2112b. that thou mayest live, that thou mayest raise thyself up because of thy strength.
2113. O N., [the inundation comes 1, [the overflow hastens], Geb [groans].
2114a. Exult in the divine efflux which is in thee; let thy heart live;
If you solve the writing as I did (with the assumption it makes sense in terms of premises) then you'll find several startling things. All authors shared the exact same premises and these premises were not related to religion, magic, or incantation but rather to the world as they perceived it. You'll find every word had three forms and each form had one single meaning. The first form I call the scientific form and this defines the subject, the second is colloquial and this defined the object (or verb), and the third is the vulgar which defined the meaning (predicate).
"I3.t-wt.t" is the scientific term
"efflux" is the colloquial
"sweat" is the vulgar
CO2 was released in huge quantities in the area the pyramids were built and could kill anything near the ground in temperature inversions or when the wind slowed at night. CO2 also caused the earth to tremble before an eruption and was closely observed and studied during the day.
Ancient metaphysics (language) is unique to animals and ancient people and is based on consciousness. The wiring in the brain that gives birth to consciousness also gives birth to a species specific language that is (probably) formatted similarly in all species. But consciousness based metaphysics can't work for modern humans because we are our beliefs. We operate and understand our world in terms of our beliefs so everything we produce individually is a reflection of beliefs rather than science. ONLY experiment can tie our beliefs to reality. Yes, "experiment" can be more loosely defined and this remains true but the fact remains that expert opinion has no real value except in specific and undefinable instances. This makes "peer review" counterproductive and wrong. It is misleading and a rubber stamp on the status quo. It is why applied science is stuck in the 1880's. We got off the track because we forgot the meaning of science.
The reality is much of what we believe simply isn't true and has never been tested. We are not the crown of creation and wysiwyg is no way to understand anything.
"I3.t-wt.t" translates as "risings begetter" because it causes cakes to rise and foam on beer. It also caused atum to stand at zep tepi.
nowadays metaphysics can revert to a younger state, that is art, because science emancipated it from the necessity of being true while not being capable of truth by definition.
that doesn't mean it can ignore truth - in which case it would be no more than buffoonery and decadance - it means it can become again the aesthetic blossoming over the rock of truth (only, this time, truth will be a critical truth, and not a revelation).
that doesn't mean it can ignore truth - in which case it would be no more than buffoonery and decadance - it means it can become again the aesthetic blossoming over the rock of truth (only, this time, truth will be a critical truth, and not a revelation).