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Self-renunciation, learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?
Yes, people who decide to go on a serious spiritual quest definitely need the guidance of a qualified preferably fully realized Master (Guru). The only true Master is God. There are spiritual masters on many levels.
You cannot make fast progress by merely learning practices from books or courses, you need that special relationship with the Master.
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?
I'm not sure though I like how you are thinking.

One caveat which comes to mind is the way people tend to evaluate themselves through the eyes of others. A young person should become aware of this and take control of it as early as possible, but how early can they do it? Then they can choose whose opinions they value. Can this be accomplished as early as 6 or 7 years of age?

What about the development of empathy? How early can that appear? Where does it come from, and why doesn't everyone have it?

Once we have learned some things like love and the value of ourselves only then does self renunciation make sense to me, because to renounce one's self requires us to be someone, first. The child who is asked to renounce themselves can't understand what is being asked, and so they will only deceive themselves about what they are doing. Instead of knowing that they are renouncing themselves, they will only know that people think they are and having no self to renounce will be incomplete and bleeding creatures.

Another question concerns the great master in the OP. What happens when no one around us is worth listening to? Then how do we find positive evaluation of ourselves and through that evaluation a positive view of the world we live in? Can we do it through the stories of great people and see ourselves through their eyes?
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?
Hi Jim, 3 questions:

Why are you opposed to common ground?

How does a person determine who ( or what ) is a Master Teacher?

Loving Trusting and Following a Master Teacher is admirable. Is it possible, in your view, for a Master Teacher to fall into spiritual darkness? If so, how does a student recognize and adjust to this?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
we cannot abdicate our responsibility to use our individual power of reason to determine what is good and what is best in our own view - even if we do choose to be guided by a master.
I agree with that and give it a gold star sticker.

I think there is great danger in attempting to enforce anachronistic religious principles in a world that has moved on to a more enlightened and tolerant way of viewing and doing things. Of course we can still learn a lot from the old masters, but we need new ones for a more secular, more humanistic, more ecologically-minded and outward-looking civilization than those that adopted the "great" religions of the past.
Yes...sort of. There is some danger. Friends are dangerous, too, though.

...but when that master and his teachings have passed their "best before" date, it is incumbent on that society to move on.
It just goes back to your first point, that we have to choose. If we get too blended into a single common will -- such as the will of our ancestors or the will of the populace -- then we lose the moral power of choice.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
A few thoughts popped up thinking about this:
Do you mean with this "there is not always the physical (human being) master teacher needed"?
In Hinduism I came across: a)Inside Teacher + b)Outside Teacher
Outside Teacher can be so many: deity, guru(man, woman), nature, sun, moon, earth, nature, God, Shiva, Buddha etc

Or do you mean "And finally you have to kill the Buddha (master teacher)", so ultimately "master teacher" is also an illusion?

Or ....
Nature itself can be the teacher, for everything in it is Brahman. Here is a story from the Upanisads. See in the quotes. :) Enjoy

Once upon a time, Satyakama the son of Jabala addressed his mother and said: "Revered Mother, I wish to become a brahmacharin. Of what ancestry am I?"
She said to him: "I do not know, my child, of what ancestry you are. In my youth I was preoccupied with many household duties and with attending on guests when I conceived you. I do not know of what ancestry you are. I am Jabala by name and you are Satyakama. So you may speak of yourself as Satyakama Jabala (the son of Jabala).
He came to Gautama the son of Haridrumata and said: "Revered Sir, I wish to live with you as a brahmacharin. May I approach you, as a pupil?"
Gautama said to him: "Of what ancestry are you, dear friend?" Satyakama said: "I do not know, Sir, of what ancestry I am. I asked my mother about it and she replied: ‘In my youth I was preoccupied with many household duties and with attending on guests when I conceived you. I do not know of what ancestry you are. I am Jabala by name and you are Satyakama.’ I am therefore, Sir, Satyakama Jabala."

Gautama said: "None but a true brahmin would thus speak out. Fetch the fuel, dear friend; I shall initiate you. You have not departed from truth."
He initiated Satyakama. Having separated out four hundred lean and weak cows from his herd, he said: "Dear friend, go with these."
Driving them away toward the forest, Satyakama said: "I shall not return until they become a thousand." He lived a number of years in the forest.
When the cows had become a thousand-

Chapter V - Instruction by the Bull
1
The bull of the herd, addressing him, said: "Satyakama!"
"Revered Sir!" Satyakama replied.
The bull said: "Dear friend, we have become a thousand, take us to teacher’s house.

2
"I will declare to you one foot of Brahman."
"Declare it, Revered Sir."
The bull said to him: "The east is one quarter, the west is one quarter, the south is one quarter, the north is one quarter. This, dear friend, is foot of Brahman, consisting of four quarters and this foot is called Prakasavat (shining).

"He who knows this and meditates on the foot of Brahman consisting four quarters as shining, becomes shining on this earth. He conquers shining worlds-he who knows this and meditates on the foot of Brahman consisting of four quarters as shining."

Chapter VII - Instruction by Fire
1
The bull further said: "Agni (fire) will declare to you another foot of Brahman."
Satyakama then, when it was the morrow, drove the cows in the direction of the teacher’s house. And when they came together toward evening, he lighted a fire, penned the cows, laid fuel on the fire and sat down behind the fire, facing the east.

2
Agni (fire), addressing him, said: "Satyakama!"
"Revered Sir!" Satyakama replied.
3
"Dear friend, I will declare to you one foot of Brahman."
"Declare it, revered Sir."
Agni said to him: "The earth is one quarter, the sky is one quarter, heaven is one quarter, the ocean is one quarter. This, dear friend, is one foot of Brahman, consisting of four quarters and this foot is called Anantavat (endless).
4
"He who knows this and meditates on the foot of Brahman consisting of four quarters as endless, becomes endless on this earth. He conquers endless worlds-he who knows this and meditates on the foot of Brahman consisting of four quarters as endless."

1. Agni further said: "A hamsa (swan) will declare to you another foot."
Satyakama then, when it was the morrow, drove the cows in the direction of the teacher’s house. And when they came together toward evening, he lighted a fire, penned the cows, laid fuel on the fire and sat down behind the fire, facing the east.

2
Then a swan flew to him and said: "Satyakama!"
"Revered Sir!" Satyakama replied.

3
Dear friend, I will declare to you one foot of Brahman."
"Declare it, revered Sir."
The swan said to him: "Fire is one quarter, the sun is one quarter, the moon is one quarter, lightning is one quarter. This, dear friend, is one foot of Brahman, consisting of four quarters and this foot is called Jyotishmat (luminous).

4
He who knows this and meditates on the foot of Brahman consisting of four quarters as luminous, becomes luminous on this earth. He conquers luminous worlds-he who knows this and meditates on the foot of Brahman consisting of four quarters as luminous.

Chapter VIII - Instruction by the Diver-Bird
1
The swan further said: "A madgu (diver-bird) will declare to you another foot."
Satyakama then, when it was the morrow, drove the cows in the direction of the teacher’s house. And when they came together toward evening, he lighted a fire, penned the cows, laid fuel on the fire and sat down behind the fire, facing the east.

2
Then a diver-bird flew to him and said: "Satyakama!"
"Revered Sir!" Satyakama replied.

3
"Dear friend, I will declare to you one foot of Brahman."
"Declare it, revered Sir."
The diver-bird said to him: "The prana is one quarter, the eye is one quarter, the ear is one quarter, the mind is one quarter. This, dear friend, is one foot of Brahman, consisting of four quarters and this foot is called Ayatanavat (having support).

4
"He who knows this and meditates on the foot of Brahman consisting of four quarters as Ayatanavat, possesses a support (i.e. home) on this earth. He conquers the worlds which offer a home-he who knows this and meditates on the foot of Brahman consisting of four quarters as Ayatanavat."

Chapter IX - Instruction by the Teacher
1
Satyakama reached the teacher’s house. The teacher said to him: "Satyakama!"
"Revered Sir!" Satyakama replied.

2
The teacher said: "Dear friend, you shine like one who knows Brahman. Who has taught you?"
"Others than men," he replied. "But I wish, revered Sir, that you alone should teach me."

3
"For I have heard from persons like your good self that only knowledge which is learnt from a teacher (acharya) leads to the highest good."
Then he (Gautama) taught him the same knowledge. Nothing whatsoever was left out, yea, nothing whatsoever was left out.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@Tony I thought that Taoism might be an exception to what I’m saying, but I see now that it isn’t.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?

Probably. A sort of slightly more complex behavior than the one followed by chimps towards their alpha males.

Therefore, a very likely natural adaptation.

Ciao

- viole
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Nature itself can be the teacher, for everything in it is Brahman. Here is a story from the Upanisads. See in the quotes. :) Enjoy
Thank you for sharing these stories about "God to be found in Nature also". I love Hinduism for "not limiting God" (in thought, word, deed)
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for sharing these stories about "God to be found in Nature also". I love Hinduism for "not limiting God" (in thought, word, deed)
By the way, in case you are wondering, this story comes from Chhandayoga Upanisad, the second of the Great Upanisads, and hence is a core scripture of Vedantic Hinduism. :)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?
Garbage.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Thank you.

Apart from Taoism, do you know of any religion that has been associated with a thriving civilization, that does not include any story like the one I described in the OP?
Most indigenous religions all over the world. Mesoamerican civilization was certainly thriving before the Spanish destroyed it, for example, and they believed no such thing.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I see that several followed Mao. The quest for
a Master is a fool's game.

I am not about to renunciationalize myself in any case.

Whatever you are not about to do to yourself is not in the dictionary. Maybe you should submit it as a new word. I love it.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Why are you opposed to common ground?
I’m not opposed to common ground. I’m opposed to trying to find common ground between belief systems.
How does a person determine who ( or what ) is a Master Teacher?
There might be multitudes of ways. Are you asking for examples? For me it required many years of experience with Baha’u’llah, before I recognized Him as my master teacher.
Loving Trusting and Following a Master Teacher is admirable. Is it possible, in your view, for a Master Teacher to fall into spiritual darkness? If so, how does a student recognize and adjust to this?
My way of trying to free myself from prejudices and delusions is to spend time with people whose ideas and interests seem contrary to mine, trying to see things their way and see the good in what they’re doing. I think that would lead naturally to finding a better master teacher, if ever I needed one.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I’m not opposed to common ground. I’m opposed to trying to find common ground between belief systems.

There might be multitudes of ways. Are you asking for examples? For me it required many years of experience with Baha’u’llah, before I recognized Him as my master teacher.

My way of trying to free myself from prejudices and delusions is to spend time with people whose ideas and interests seem contrary to mine, trying to see things their way and see the good in what they’re doing. I think that would lead naturally to finding a better master teacher, if ever I needed one.

I totally do not understand this Quest for a Master Teacher.
 
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