Self-renunciation, learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher

AT-AT said:

leads to a lot of bad things in reality.

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AT-AT said:

Sounds to me like we're talking about Discipleship when we mention "Masters". Discipleship is a view that works very well in people's minds, but leads to a lot of bad things in reality. It's probably why less Christian churches focus on Discipleship now.

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Are you disagreeing with what I said in the OP? Are you denying that there is any story in Christianity about self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher?

Jim said:

Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?

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I agree with the principles you refer to.

I wouldn't use the word love ─ I try to act decently all the time towards people I don't love in the sense I understand the word. Indeed, I may not particularly respect some of them.

And I wouldn't say 'follow a master' ─ I'd say, be guided as you find helpful, don't stop learning, but you're responsible for yourself.

Still, with ordinary luck the results would have a lot in common.

Jim said:

Are you disagreeing with what I said in the OP? Are you denying that there is any story in Christianity about self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher?

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Question 1: Just skeptical on the idea of Master Teachers still being a valid concept today. Quite often having a teacher on these spiritual subjects can cause emotional/mental distress for the person being taught if the teacher isn't a good one and compatible with a person. Discipleship is much more intimate than say, being taught at a college.

Question 2: That'd open up a can of worms if I went there.

Jim said:

Are you disagreeing with what I said? Are you denying that all those religions tell that story?

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The Reverend Bob said:

Taoism does.

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“Taoism does” what? Tells that story; or denies that all those religions tell that story?

Jim said:

“Taoism does” what? Tells that story; or denies that all those religions tell that story?

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It doesn't have it. it is for the most part absent. Taoism lacks a narrative.

Jim said:

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?

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I see it.

But I think its part of a picture that is bigger than religion. Communist China had (ostensibly) no religion - but they had the same story - with Chairman Mao as the master.

I think its really more about the delicate balancing act between the best interests of the individual and the best interests of the collective - tribe, nation, civilization...whatever. I don't have any particular problem with the people of a culture following the teachings of their master...but when that master and his teachings have passed their "best before" date, it is incumbent on that society to move on.

I think there is great danger in attempting to enforce anachronistic religious principles in a world that has moved on to a more enlightened and tolerant way of viewing and doing things. Of course we can still learn a lot from the old masters, but we need new ones for a more secular, more humanistic, more ecologically-minded and outward-looking civilization than those that adopted the "great" religions of the past.

I think there is also great danger in choosing just one "master" (compare Proverbs 15:2). And in any case, the choice of master to follow is an individual choice anyway, isn't it - so whilst there might be an element of self-renunciation involved in accepting the teaching of any master, we cannot abdicate our responsibility to use our individual power of reason to determine what is good and what is best in our own view - even if we do choose to be guided by a master.

Jim said:

Is there anyone else here who sees that?

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Yes, Brahman Jim, even the most relayable person, and his good following disciples. Admirable Friedship (high respect toward the teacher) is not only part, but the whole of a spiritual live, grow.

...Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."[1]

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

"And how does a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, develop & pursue the noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, develops & pursues the noble eightfold path.The Blessed One said, "If wanderers who are members of other sects should ask you, 'What, friend, are the prerequisites for the development of the wings to self-awakening?' you should answer, 'There is the case where a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades. This is the first prerequisite for the development of the wings to self-awakening.

...

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More on it, with all orientations, here:


Admirable friend - (kalyanamittata)

sayak83 said:

The master teacher part is not considered necessary in Hinduism.

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In some sects, at some levels, it most certainly is seen as necessary. But you're right, not in Hinduism as a whole.

blü 2 said:

I agree with the principles you refer to.

I wouldn't use the word love ─ I try to act decently all the time towards people I don't love in the sense I understand the word. Indeed, I may not particularly respect some of them.

And I wouldn't say 'follow a master' ─ I'd say, be guided as you find helpful, don't stop learning, but you're responsible for yourself.

Still, with ordinary luck the results would have a lot in common.

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Thank you.

Apart from Taoism, do you know of any religion that has been associated with a thriving civilization, that does not include any story like the one I described in the OP?

The Reverend Bob said:

It doesn't have it. it is for the most part absent. Taoism lacks a narrative.

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Do you have any reason for thinking that there have not always been priests in Taoism, and some stories to explain why, and some stories about where the words of wisdom came from?

Jim said:

Apart from Taoism, do you know of any religion that has been associated with a thriving civilization, that does not include any story like the one I described in the OP?

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It's not a question I've looked at. The Iliad and Odyssey were hugely influential in Greek culture, and Odysseus's travels can be read as a story about (barbarian) morality, which involves boldness, planning / plotting, giving and taking hospitality, and working through the conflicting demands of the gods and goddesses, and ends with a wholesale slaughter of the offensive suitors. (It has many parallels with Hollywood, come to think of it.) There's not a lot of self-denial there, though perhaps Odysseus is a model. They also taught 'Know Thyself' (as did others), at least by the time of Plato (early 4th cent BCE), but that's not quite the same thing either.

Jim said:

Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?

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That is where so many get led astray, by blindly following the lies of MAN.

Why does everyone want someone to spoon feed them sweet sounding lies about some "god" (guess) construct?

Ancient Soul said:

That is where so many get led astray, by blindly following the lies of MAN.

Why does everyone want someone to spoon feed them sweet sounding lies about some "god" (guess) construct?

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Because pablum sometimes taste sweet and is easy to digest

@The Reverend Bob ((Maybe I didn’t make my question clear enough. Are you denying that there is any story anywhere in Taoism, about self-renunciation and following a master, as a way to live the best life we can, to bring out the best possibilities for ourselves, for others, and for society?))

Jim said:

@The Reverend Bob ((Maybe I didn’t make my question clear enough. Are you denying that there is any story anywhere in Taoism, about self-renunciation and following a master, as a way to live the best life we can, to bring out the best possibilities for ourselves, for others, and for society?))

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There is no overarching narrative within Taoism, just different schools of thought. Some have myths and stories, some do not. There is no ORTHODOX Taoism. Lao Tzu isn't even that important has some have been lead to believe, he was a good poet in my book, comparing Lao Tzu to Chuang Tzu would be futile since both had their own points of view. I won't put one above the other even if they seemingly disagree on some points. We all have different points of view.

Jim said:

Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?

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"1 common ground" = Love. If one really realizes this, then "what is there to reconcile" (Bible dictates "Love is the highest commandment")

sayak83 said:

The master teacher part is not considered necessary in Hinduism.

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Vinayaka said:

In some sects, at some levels, it most certainly is seen as necessary. But you're right, not in Hinduism as a whole.

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A few thoughts popped up thinking about this:
Do you mean with this "there is not always the physical (human being) master teacher needed"?
In Hinduism I came across: a)Inside Teacher + b)Outside Teacher
Outside Teacher can be so many: deity, guru(man, woman), nature, sun, moon, earth, nature, God, Shiva, Buddha etc

Or do you mean "And finally you have to kill the Buddha (master teacher)", so ultimately "master teacher" is also an illusion?

Or ....

stvdv said:

A few thoughts popped up thinking about this:
Do you mean with this "there is not always the physical (human being) master teacher needed"?
In Hinduism I came across: a)Inside Teacher + b)Outside Teacher
Outside Teacher can be so many: deity, guru(man, woman), nature, sun, moon, earth, nature, God, Shiva, Buddha etc

Or do you mean "And finally you have to kill the Buddha (master teacher)", so ultimately "master teacher" is also an illusion?

Or ....

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No I just meant that some sects and sampradaya function through the lineage, which means a living Satguru, (I take this word as the equivalent of Master Teacher, but it may well be a poor translation) considered 99.9% necessary, at the end of the yoga stage, just before nirvikalpa samadhi.

Of course it's entirely dependent on the actual qualities of what one considers a master, or satguru. These titles, these days, just get added to anyone, even by themselves, as some sort of honorific, and doesn't mean much at all sometimes.

Jim said:

Note: I‘m not trying to reconcile belief systems. I’m not trying to find common ground between them. I’m opposed to that.

I think that in all the religions that have been associated with thriving civilizations, there is a story that the best life a person can live, for their own benefit and for the benefit of all people and of society, is in self-renunciation and learning to love, trust and follow a master teacher. Is there anyone else here who sees that?

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Definitely not me.