Nowhere in the Bible does it say or infer that mary the Mother of Christ...

pearl · Jun 3, 2019

Jonathan Bailey said:
The Roman Catholics can't accept that the "Mother of God" is anything less than perfect and absolutely sinless from her own conception

Not by any merit of her own but through Christ.

exchemist · Jun 3, 2019

Jonathan Bailey said:
was conceived and born without original sin nor that she was absolutely free of any personal sin. I do believe she was a woman of distinct honor, having been deemed fit by God to bear His only begotten Son, and was saved and that she is forever in heaven. The Roman Catholics can't accept that the "Mother of God" is anything less than perfect and absolutely sinless from her own conception. God made Jesus perfect and sinless in the womb of Mary and free of original sin by the miracle of His divine workings. The holy seed (sperm) of God makes Jesus Christ perfect and absolutely sinless.

Does the Bible say that Mary, mother of Jesus, was born without sin?

To me, Mary herself addressed this issue in the words of the Magnificat (the song of praise that she spoke in response to the greeting of her cousin Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) when Mary went to visit her immediately after Mary had been informed by the angel Gabriel that she was to be the mother of the Messiah). Mary began by saying (Luke 1:46-47), "My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If she had truly been without both original and actual sin, she would have had no need to either have or acknowledge a Savior.

She also said in Luke 1:48-50, "For, behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed, for He (God) has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.” Had Mary been totally without sin, she would have had no need to either receive or accept mercy (that is, undeserved favor or forgiveness) from God.

In addition, the Bible records occasions when Mary was mildly rebuked by Jesus Himself for actions or requests that, had she been totally without sin and shared Jesus' complete knowledge of and devotion to His Father's will, she should not have performed or asked (Luke 2:49-50 and John 2:3-4).

So far as I know, nobody would claim the bible says Mary was born without original sin (the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception). There is a good deal of both doctrine and tradition in the older, pre-Reformation, churches that is not found in the bible but was part of a developed theology derived from it but considerably extended. It is a fairly recent, Protestant "back-to-basics" idea that every concept should be mentioned in the bible.

But I must say that I have never seen much point in the Immaculate Conception. If one takes the view that Original Sin is a human disposition towards evil, rather than actual sinfulness, then I can't see why Mary would need a free pass from it. But maybe Metis can comment.

Jonathan Bailey · Jun 3, 2019

sooda said:
The Sermon on the Mount was created in the Book of Matthew AFTER the destruction of the Temple and most probably closer to 100 AD than 70 AD.

You think God set the gospels up to "look mythical" ? Really?

I don't think God intended His works to be perceived by man as mythical. The doubters of this world might think the "mythical patterns" apparent in scripture diminish its credibility or validity. There might be some divine significance as to why stories of the NT seem to follow patterns of stories of the OT.

That strange men in the gospels, the original disciples, began to immediately follow Christ might be yet another miracle from God as His miracles are many. The bible is loaded with miracles.

Jonathan Bailey · Jun 3, 2019

exchemist said:
So far as I know, nobody would claim the bible says Mary was born without original sin (the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception). There is a good deal of both doctrine and tradition in the older, pre-Reformation, churches that is not found in the bible but was part of a developed theology derived from it but considerably extended. It is a fairly recent, Protestant "back-to-basics" idea that every concept should be mentioned in the bible.

But I must say that I have never seen much point in the Immaculate Conception. If one takes the view that Original Sin is a human disposition towards evil, rather than actual sinfulness, then I can't see why Mary would need a free pass from it. But maybe Metis can comment.

Speaking of passes, needing things and Mary, sometimes a football team needs a Hail Mary pass to win a game or a championship even but for a team to complete such a seemingly-miraculous pass and win, the team has to earn it, on top of any good luck, as the completion of this kind of pass is not free when the QB tosses the ball on up high. Some receiver, back or other downfield position for the offense without butterfingers but with able hands as well as drive and terrific hustle has to catch the ball and maintain possession of it while avoiding a possible interception, no-catch out of bounds or double coverage from the opposing defense. Maybe even God intervenes in a Hail Mary pass situation. If He is a Cowboys fan, and the Lions are attempting the Hail Mary, who knows, an unseen angel might bat the passed ball down to foil the Hail Mary attempt. If God were to favor the Lions, they might succeed in the Hail Mary because Gabriel might blast his trumpet in the ears of the defensive double-coverage players to distract them so the pass is completed for Lions victory. Yes, mythical stories as well as legends can be created even in American football of modern days.

exchemist · Jun 3, 2019

Jonathan Bailey said:
Speaking of passes, needing things and Mary, sometimes a football team needs a Hail Mary pass to win a game or a championship even but for a team to complete such a seemingly-miraculous pass and win, the team has to earn it, on top of any good luck, as the completion of this kind of pass is not free when the QB tosses the ball on up high. Some receiver, back or other downfield position for the offense without butterfingers but with able hands as well as drive and terrific hustle has to catch the ball and maintain possession of it while avoiding a possible interception, no-catch out of bounds or double coverage from the opposing defense. Maybe even God intervenes in a Hail Mary pass situation. If He is a Cowboys fan, and the Lions are attempting the Hail Mary, who knows, an unseen angel might bat the passed ball down to foil the Hail Mary attempt. If God were to favor the Lions, they might succeed in the Hail Mary because Gabriel might blast his trumpet in the ears of the defensive double-coverage players to distract them so the pass is completed for Lions victory. Yes, mythical stories as well as legends can be created even in American football of modern days.

You have the advantage of me. I have never watched an American Football match. But it sounds as if Catholics play it.

sooda · Jun 3, 2019

Jonathan Bailey said:
I don't think God intended His works to be perceived by man as mythical. The doubters of this world might think the "mythical patterns" apparent in scripture diminish its credibility or validity. There might be some divine significance as to why stories of the NT seem to follow patterns of stories of the OT.

That strange men in the gospels, the original disciples, began to immediately follow Christ might be yet another miracle from God as His miracles are many. The bible is loaded with miracles.

Most of that is myth.. Its not in human nature to walk away from your life with a stranger. Lies and embellishments ultimately backfire.

metis · Jun 3, 2019

exchemist said:
But I must say that I have never seen much point in the Immaculate Conception. If one takes the view that Original Sin is a human disposition towards evil, rather than actual sinfulness, then I can't see why Mary would need a free pass from it. But maybe Metis can comment.

"Original sin" has been traditionally defined that we are borne of a sinful act which, frankly, seems to be more about Paul's hangup, imo. In more recent times, some Catholic theologians sharply question that interpretation for some obvious reasons.

With the original concept, Jesus is believed to have been sinless, including borne that way, and traditionally back at that time it was believed that sin was passed on through the mother, thus going all the way back to Eve tempting Adam to eat the "forbidden fruit".

Needless to say, I tend to more take your position on this.

shmogie · Jun 3, 2019

Jonathan Bailey said:
was conceived and born without original sin nor that she was absolutely free of any personal sin. I do believe she was a woman of distinct honor, having been deemed fit by God to bear His only begotten Son, and was saved and that she is forever in heaven. The Roman Catholics can't accept that the "Mother of God" is anything less than perfect and absolutely sinless from her own conception. God made Jesus perfect and sinless in the womb of Mary and free of original sin by the miracle of His divine workings. The holy seed (sperm) of God makes Jesus Christ perfect and absolutely sinless.

Does the Bible say that Mary, mother of Jesus, was born without sin?

To me, Mary herself addressed this issue in the words of the Magnificat (the song of praise that she spoke in response to the greeting of her cousin Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) when Mary went to visit her immediately after Mary had been informed by the angel Gabriel that she was to be the mother of the Messiah). Mary began by saying (Luke 1:46-47), "My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If she had truly been without both original and actual sin, she would have had no need to either have or acknowledge a Savior.

She also said in Luke 1:48-50, "For, behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed, for He (God) has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.” Had Mary been totally without sin, she would have had no need to either receive or accept mercy (that is, undeserved favor or forgiveness) from God.

In addition, the Bible records occasions when Mary was mildly rebuked by Jesus Himself for actions or requests that, had she been totally without sin and shared Jesus' complete knowledge of and devotion to His Father's will, she should not have performed or asked (Luke 2:49-50 and John 2:3-4).

You are correct

shmogie · Jun 3, 2019

sooda said:
Most of that is myth.. Its not in human nature to walk away from your life with a stranger. Lies and embellishments ultimately backfire.

You sad it, it must be so. I don't think so. Are you a myth ?

David T · Jun 3, 2019

sooda said:
The most important video.. Mythical writings explained.

[video]

I didn't watch the entire vid but yes the intro is valid at least to a degree. I may watch it but I would like to know how he understands the term myth.

We tend to as a culture to say myth to anything that contradicts our world view. That term myth strongly developed as meaning I understand correctly and that is false, literally, in my degree theology, in Europe, at the University level at the dawn if Universities. At the earliest formations of the university theology was referred to as the queen of science. So the term myth as it developed in christianity was a term applied to all other stories not Christian. Today we can apply it to the christian story but if we accept the original term as it developed up through Christianity and simply now apply it to the text there is no resolution to what the term actually means and it thus is just behavioral parroting. if the term is accepted as valid as it developed first in Christianity in application to other stories, it can't be applied to the christian text without some other meaning to the term other than simply parroting Christian intellectualism. Otherwise it's just southern Baptist without Jesus.

So yes we can say it's a myth but what the hell Christian's have been saying exactly that for a thousand years to anything that conflicts with their narrative. Nothing becomes clearer just more muddled.

Jonathan Bailey · Jun 3, 2019

wellwisher said:
Say for the sake of argument Mary, was not perfect. Nevertheless, she bore a child who was the son of God. This paradox would imply that biology alone is a not a sufficient condition for divinity. It would imply that free will and choice plays a role. DNA does not guarantee or preclude anything.

If you took a group of babies, with the exact same DNA; clones, and placed them, at birth, in various environments; rich, poor, safe, stressful, they will all be physically the same, but development and temperament could be all over the board. Environment plays a role in the emotional, intellectual, psychological and spiritual development. These differences are not just the due to the environment, but also can be due to choices made at various crossroads of life. One bad or one good choice can define a life.

In Jewish tradition, one's connection to the Jewish tribe was based on maternal DNA; bloodline on mothers side. Jesus was a Jew in terms of this biological definition; mother Mary, even if he was not orthodox, by choice.

Mary, was a subset of being Jewish. She was biologically a Jew, but also unique and part of a unique environment, for Jesus, based on her own choices. This was based on faith in God, for her blessing,which when combined with the choices of Jesus, led to the full divinity of Jesus; his mission becomes clear.

For example, Jesus was given choices in the wilderness, by Satan, which could have altered the outcome. Jesus would have become the rich and powerful Messiah anticipated by the Jewish people., who would subdue all enemies. However, choices made earlier in life made another path clear.

The choice for salvation is not innate or based DNA, but has to be groomed and then chosen. One reason Christianity spread was because it was not about bloodline or DNA. It was about a choice for salvation, regardless of DNA or environment; beyond the tribal or class system. This was a 2000 year old scientific theory which said that free will exists apart from the DNA; divine soul.

The ancient Jews were patriarchal but recognized tribal affiliation by only the mother's bloodline: how ironic. In traditional Christianity, western civilization, we only inherit our family name (surname) from our fathers. Scientifically, we know that the Y chromosome is only possessed by the male of the human species, is what produces a biological male and passes only from father to son indefinitely.

Jesus Christ inherited His holiness, absolute sinlessness and perfection from God, His Father.
God is absolutely immortal, sinless and without fault and so was His only begotten Son (except Jesus was only mortal in the human flesh He inherited from His mortal worldly human mother).

Mary inherited her original sin and mortality from Adam and Eve as all us purebred humans do.

Jesus has a half-God/half-human person.

David T · Jun 3, 2019

Terry Sampson said:
@Jonathan Bailey , your objections to the Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary the God-bearer have been noted, recorded, and sent to our Holy Father, Pope Francis. You should be receiving the Pope's summons soon, ordering you to report to Rome to answer charges of heresy. You would do well to study the Church's teachings regarding the Doctrine at issue in the meantime. Take care, Terry Sampson

Biblical Support for Mary’s Immaculate Conception

The good ole days when being a heretic had consequences! Today everyone plays fast and loose with no consequences. It is a god forsaken world I tell you.

David T · Jun 3, 2019

Jonathan Bailey said:
That guy with curly hair and glasses is trying to "debunk" the so-called myth of the Gospels.

With God anything is possible. Anything is awesome. Anything is extraordinary. Anything is amazing.

The Gospels are all true to the letter. God just set all the events up to seem "mythical".

This stuff about the Immaculate Conception makes me want to get back into a Protestant church again,
albeit an LGBT-affirmed one (unlike the United Methodist Church I was baptised in and permitted women ministers
and didn't condone homsexualty in its social principles) and one where it is forbidden for any woman to be ordained.

The minister who baptised me, Pastor Conrad, was a man and I have a baptismal certificate with his signature. I still accept this baptism
as a true Christian baptism which is needed for me to enter the Kingdom of God upon my own death. Rev. Conrad, to the best of my memory, baptised me at age 17 by placing two or more of his fingers in a bowl of water (possibly holy water from the River Jordan)
and then placing such wet fingers upon my head and declaring me baptised. I can't remember if if he said he baptized me in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, however. I do know that the United Methodists did, in 1981,use the term Holy Ghost and not Holy Spirit.

Some churches, when one joins a church other than their baptismal church, may or may not recognize the other' church's baptism as valid.

"With God anything is possible"

Totally agree. Your comment is totally goofed yet it exists! Theoretically scientifically that's not explained. You have created fantasy nonsense in a sensical world! Also it's horrid art no matter what you believe it to be.

David T · Jun 3, 2019

exchemist said:
So far as I know, nobody would claim the bible says Mary was born without original sin (the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception). There is a good deal of both doctrine and tradition in the older, pre-Reformation, churches that is not found in the bible but was part of a developed theology derived from it but considerably extended. It is a fairly recent, Protestant "back-to-basics" idea that every concept should be mentioned in the bible.

But I must say that I have never seen much point in the Immaculate Conception. If one takes the view that Original Sin is a human disposition towards evil, rather than actual sinfulness, then I can't see why Mary would need a free pass from it. But maybe Metis can comment.

" Protestant "back-to-basics" idea that every concept should be mentioned in the bible"

Factoid true although say Luthers great proclamation only faith only scripture is rapidly buried under a mountain of what he thinks is how to read scripture and and what he thinks scripture says. So he does zero to fix the problem merely diverts the issue to his own opinions is all. But that's normal.

metis · Jun 3, 2019

BTW, in addition to my last post, there's a statement by Jesus whereas he says of John the Baptist that no greater a man was ever born of a woman, which sounded sorta strange to me when I first noticed that some decades ago. How else would he have been borne?

I tend to think that might also reflect the belief back then that it was through the mother that "original sin" was passed on.

QuestioningMind · Jun 3, 2019

Jonathan Bailey said:
That guy with curly hair and glasses is trying to "debunk" the so-called myth of the Gospels.

With God anything is possible. Anything is awesome. Anything is extraordinary. Anything is amazing.

The Gospels are all true to the letter. God just set all the events up to seem "mythical".

This stuff about the Immaculate Conception makes me want to get back into a Protestant church again,
albeit an LGBT-affirmed one (unlike the United Methodist Church I was baptised in and permitted women ministers
and didn't condone homsexualty in its social principles) and one where it is forbidden for any woman to be ordained.

The minister who baptised me, Pastor Conrad, was a man and I have a baptismal certificate with his signature. I still accept this baptism
as a true Christian baptism which is needed for me to enter the Kingdom of God upon my own death. Rev. Conrad, to the best of my memory, baptised me at age 17 by placing two or more of his fingers in a bowl of water (possibly holy water from the River Jordan)
and then placing such wet fingers upon my head and declaring me baptised. I can't remember if if he said he baptized me in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, however. I do know that the United Methodists did, in 1981,use the term Holy Ghost and not Holy Spirit.

Some churches, when one joins a church other than their baptismal church, may or may not recognize the other' church's baptism as valid.

The Gospels are all true to the letter. God just set all the events up to seem "mythical".

I'm continually amazed how some believers are forced to twist logic and reason into a pretzel in order to justify their ridiculous beliefs.

David T · Jun 3, 2019

Jonathan Bailey said:
was conceived and born without original sin nor that she was absolutely free of any personal sin. I do believe she was a woman of distinct honor, having been deemed fit by God to bear His only begotten Son, and was saved and that she is forever in heaven. The Roman Catholics can't accept that the "Mother of God" is anything less than perfect and absolutely sinless from her own conception. God made Jesus perfect and sinless in the womb of Mary and free of original sin by the miracle of His divine workings. The holy seed (sperm) of God makes Jesus Christ perfect and absolutely sinless.

Does the Bible say that Mary, mother of Jesus, was born without sin?

To me, Mary herself addressed this issue in the words of the Magnificat (the song of praise that she spoke in response to the greeting of her cousin Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) when Mary went to visit her immediately after Mary had been informed by the angel Gabriel that she was to be the mother of the Messiah). Mary began by saying (Luke 1:46-47), "My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If she had truly been without both original and actual sin, she would have had no need to either have or acknowledge a Savior.

She also said in Luke 1:48-50, "For, behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed, for He (God) has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.” Had Mary been totally without sin, she would have had no need to either receive or accept mercy (that is, undeserved favor or forgiveness) from God.

In addition, the Bible records occasions when Mary was mildly rebuked by Jesus Himself for actions or requests that, had she been totally without sin and shared Jesus' complete knowledge of and devotion to His Father's will, she should not have performed or asked (Luke 2:49-50 and John 2:3-4).

I suppose I won't mention the other Mary as being the founder of Christianity that would be way way to confusing.

Therefore I want to talk about Bigfoot just to feel normal here.

David T · Jun 3, 2019

QuestioningMind said:
The Gospels are all true to the letter. God just set all the events up to seem "mythical".

I'm continually amazed how some believers are forced to twist logic and reason into a pretzel in order to justify their ridiculous beliefs.

Really? like what, it doesn't happen in science.? I mean you know you are complaining about normal right?

I mean haven't you been married for petesake. Hell every sane married male knows twisted logic into a pretzel daily. Logic has nothing to do with anything but building crap. This isn't an auto repair forum!!

QuestioningMind · Jun 3, 2019

David T said:
Really? like what, it doesn't happen in science.? I mean you know you are complaining about normal right?

I mean haven't you been married for petesake. Hell every sane married male knows twisted logic into a pretzel daily. Logic has nothing to do with anything but building crap. This isn't an auto repair forum!!

If you have an example of this happening in science, go for it! I just happen to be responding to how this particular OP is twisting logic and reason. And yes, logic IS used to 'build crap'... you should use logic when building an automobile and you should also use it when attempting to build a reasonable argument. If you attempt to use twisted convoluted logic you'll end up with a twist convoluted automobile or a twisted convoluted argument.

sojourner · Jun 5, 2019

QuestioningMind said:
I'm continually amazed how some believers are forced to twist logic and reason into a pretzel in order to justify their ridiculous beliefs.

David T said:
"With God anything is possible"

=/= “I can believe anything I want.”

There are some reeeaallly twisted beliefs in this thread that are not reasoned out At. All.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say or infer that mary the Mother of Christ...

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