Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Pork tikka masala? That is almost as wrong sounding as a beef version.
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Evolution & Creationism are both Faith & Supernatural based
- Thread starter Patriottechsan
- Start date
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
So your argument now is "robots are designed, therefore everything is".
Do you not see the flaw in that logic? And you lecture people here on critical thinking.
Chicken is the classic but I use a pressure cooker and chicken dries out plus I like to live dangerous, I want to see if the God of the OT blast me with a thunderbolt for eating pig. 2 minutes to go in the pressure cooker, I'm excited!
If you don't agree with me I will throw a tantrum and not come back!
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Darn! I was going to use that tactic on you.
I do enjoy Indian food and there is no reason to allow one's own cooking to be limited by their religious beliefs.
Hmm, the debate is going nowhere, perhaps it is time for a discussion on cooking.
I'm up for that as long as you repeat the same recipe 30 times with poor grammar and spelling, and threaten to have me burnt in hell for eternity if I don't believe it is the one true recipe.
Yes, we know there is a designer because *we* are the designers.
But the question when it comes to life is not whether it is functional. That is clear. It is whether functionality implies design. And that is very far from being clear.
Does all functionality require design? Your claim is that it does. My claim is that it does not.
Well, it is your *claim* that humans were designed by an ID. At this point, it is only a claim. And, because we *know* living things reproduce, mutate, and are subject to environmental selection, we then have to ask if such can lead to functionality without an ID. And, from ALL evidence we have, those three things together (reproduction, mutation, and selection) CAN and almost MUST produce very complex levels of functionality.
Furthermore, we have actually used this mechanism to produce complex, functional, computer programs where *no person* knows how they function. Yet those computer programs do, indeed, function, and often give the best solutions to problems we want to solve.
So, we now have *two* mechanisms for producing complex functionality. One is design. The other is evolution. How do we distinguish between the two?
Well, one way is that evolution, by its nature, produces nested hierarchies of 'species'. On the other hand, design tends to produce systems that are NOT nested hierarchies. This is because the best solution is often NOT to simply modify an existing design, but to start and use ideas from a variety of different previous designs. This breaks the genetic hierarchy.
Now, which do we see in life? Extensive studies over the last couple of hundred years verift that life shows nested hierarchies. This is one of the strong pieces of support for evolution (but, by far, not the only one). It is precisely what is NOT expected from an ID scenario.
No. Robots do not reproduce. They don't have mutations nor are the subject to environmental selection. Furthermore, if you look at the development of robots over time, they do NOT show the type of nested hierarchies we see in life and in evolutionary systems.
Your analogy is a false one.
Nope. Robots *are* designed. Life is not.
Complexity isn't the relevant variable. Whether the history of development shows nested hierarchies is.
Exactly. And that is *precisely* part of the evidence that humans are NOT designed: they are subject to evolution and do NOT show the patterns expected from design.
Nope. Give an example where there is reproduction, mutation, and selection by an environment. Or give an example where nested hierarchies are seen.
Well, I don't expect you to actually read and respond to this. You have shown great ability to ignore previous posts that go against your biases.
We use evolutionary processes to produce complex computer programs using what is known as 'genetic programming'. This is a type of programming without prior design. Go look it up.
Patriottechsan
Member
So you as an ID don't use your ID to do what you do! Really.!!! You just leave it alone & let it create itself by itself by Random trial & error! You don't set thinks up or ever use your Intelligence in any way form or fashion? What a crock. You're so blinded by the reality you can't see what's reality in front of you. As I said earlier They teach you WHAT to THI K not HOW to THINK. You just proved it Again!
Thanks!
See even your examples prove my point. It's why you avoid doing the other I asked because you know you can't w/o proving me correct! Like you just did. Heck your example you'd have to use your ID to not only set up what you did but to analyze it to check results & see how well it's going. You just can't avoid using ID no matter how you ignore it. Reality is there staring you in the face.
.It reminds me of those that hate Trump. They can. deny, protest etc all the want to. It doesn't change the truth. Trump is President. You can't avoid the Reality that creation took an ID for humans etc even more but just like Robotics no matter what you do to deny or ignore it.
Just face the reality. You don't have to worship the ID but if academically honest you must acknowledge that reality whether you like it or not!
Nice but again a failed attempt!
Thanks!
See even your examples prove my point. It's why you avoid doing the other I asked because you know you can't w/o proving me correct! Like you just did. Heck your example you'd have to use your ID to not only set up what you did but to analyze it to check results & see how well it's going. You just can't avoid using ID no matter how you ignore it. Reality is there staring you in the face.
.It reminds me of those that hate Trump. They can. deny, protest etc all the want to. It doesn't change the truth. Trump is President. You can't avoid the Reality that creation took an ID for humans etc even more but just like Robotics no matter what you do to deny or ignore it.
Just face the reality. You don't have to worship the ID but if academically honest you must acknowledge that reality whether you like it or not!
Nice but again a failed attempt!
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You do not seem to understand the difference between what people do and what we observe in nature. There is no evidence for ID, that is the problem with it. That is why no scientists doing work in the field seem to take it seriously. All one can find are articles in creationist sources, not well respected scientific journals, on the topic.
Also your analogies need work. As pointed out you need an analogy for life which reproduces and has variation and undergoes natural selection. Your robot example has robots which do not reproduce, and it fails right there.
Patriottechsan
Member
Its easy & convenient for you to blame the messenger as you guys always do. It doesn't change TRUTH & esp obvious TRUTH.
Since it makes you feel better & "intellectually" superior when in truth it actually exposes you.
It doesn't change anything. You've been told the TRUTH & intentionally ignored it & therefore you are still responsible for how you responded to it.
God Bless.
Since it makes you feel better & "intellectually" superior when in truth it actually exposes you.
It doesn't change anything. You've been told the TRUTH & intentionally ignored it & therefore you are still responsible for how you responded to it.
God Bless.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Do you have evidence for the creator you claims exists and created everything, or not?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
If the messenger isn't making a clear and coherent argument, then yes, I will blame the messenger.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The obvious TRUTH is that life as we know it is the product of evolution. All you need to do is to learn the basics of science to understand this. You keep demonstrating a complete lack of this knowledge. Would you like to learn?
So ID is ID because ID is ID?
Patriottechsan
Member
You don't want proof of a creator any.ore than you do of ID or FUNCTIONAL DESIGN. You've been given that & you ignore it & then use it for your own bully pulpit to proclaim your own brilliance when it only exposes your foolishness.
They in fact over lap a great deal. But yes I have much much more that proves Jesus was who He said He was. I have proof the Bible is inerrant word of God too.
This thread proves you don't want answers because you won't read links etc.
I can give you links that are completely dedicated to answer questions skeptics, atheist have asked for yrs. That doesn't even count the books that have been written by people out to destroy & disprove the "myth" of Jesus & Christianity. Yet despite their extreme bias. As honest researchers. Which are not on this thread.
They ended up writing a book totally opposite of their original intention. They wrote books validating. Everything they had originally set out to disprove!
Which is like my personal experience with a man with 2 Dr degrees in Engineering that challenged me to a debate about evolution, ID, Jesus, the Bible Christianity & the only way to salvation. He's beaten so ma y other compromised Christians he thought I'd just be another mark on his belt.
Well, we set up ground rules. We followed them & unlike you on here. He was an honest despite being so biased academic. As an Engineer he readily u derstood FUNCTIONAL DESIGN needing ID. He conceded that to me in one week. Now we had to find who that ID was.
The rest of our search together took 2 yrs. We talked 3 days a week for 1 hour each day for that 2 yrs. Interestingly enough. He had a bad heart & had moved to my city to spend the last of his time near his daughter.
The last day I saw him was a Friday. At the end I told him. Now we've finished. You now have ever answer you wanted & needed intellectually. Now is the final step. What are you going to do with it. Are going to ignore what your mind & intellect now knows as TRUTH & accept Jesus as your Savior. Or are you going to ignore it despite knowing it determines your ETERNITY & ETERNITY is too long to be WRONG!
He told me. I won't do it in front of everyone here in the Y. I said fine let's walk to your car. We walked to his car. He prayed to accept Christ at his car. Praise God for that.
.Whats more is he died that weekend of a heart attack. I never saw him again. God had allowed him to live long enough to finish what we were doing since he was serious about it despite how it started. Our meeting & his challenge to me was a divine appointment. Well he is now ETERNALLY grateful for what happened & so am I. I was disappointed I didn't get to disciple him in the Faith. Yet God put us together. I look forward to seeing him again when my time on earth is finished whenever that is.
You can't understand what you aren't truly willing to listen to & learn. He wasn't at first but as I proved to be his equal intellectually & esp on my turf of expertise. Then he became a true seeker for the TRUTH. which he knew in his heart he didn't have.
My prayer is someday you get serious about this. In this thread I've given 3-4 links to places that can answer your science questions. Bible questions I leave here just in case. www.apologeticspress.org. They have science & many Bible questions answered for skeptics atheist & seekers.
I'll let you decide. I've got a health issue that my Dr just can't figure out. It's been going on for a few months. It's recovered AGAIN! I see him tomorrow AGAIN. I hope we figure it out. If not or its bad then it's dedicated to honor God & my Lord & Savior regardless. That's always my prayer!
God Bless You All
They in fact over lap a great deal. But yes I have much much more that proves Jesus was who He said He was. I have proof the Bible is inerrant word of God too.
This thread proves you don't want answers because you won't read links etc.
I can give you links that are completely dedicated to answer questions skeptics, atheist have asked for yrs. That doesn't even count the books that have been written by people out to destroy & disprove the "myth" of Jesus & Christianity. Yet despite their extreme bias. As honest researchers. Which are not on this thread.
They ended up writing a book totally opposite of their original intention. They wrote books validating. Everything they had originally set out to disprove!
Which is like my personal experience with a man with 2 Dr degrees in Engineering that challenged me to a debate about evolution, ID, Jesus, the Bible Christianity & the only way to salvation. He's beaten so ma y other compromised Christians he thought I'd just be another mark on his belt.
Well, we set up ground rules. We followed them & unlike you on here. He was an honest despite being so biased academic. As an Engineer he readily u derstood FUNCTIONAL DESIGN needing ID. He conceded that to me in one week. Now we had to find who that ID was.
The rest of our search together took 2 yrs. We talked 3 days a week for 1 hour each day for that 2 yrs. Interestingly enough. He had a bad heart & had moved to my city to spend the last of his time near his daughter.
The last day I saw him was a Friday. At the end I told him. Now we've finished. You now have ever answer you wanted & needed intellectually. Now is the final step. What are you going to do with it. Are going to ignore what your mind & intellect now knows as TRUTH & accept Jesus as your Savior. Or are you going to ignore it despite knowing it determines your ETERNITY & ETERNITY is too long to be WRONG!
He told me. I won't do it in front of everyone here in the Y. I said fine let's walk to your car. We walked to his car. He prayed to accept Christ at his car. Praise God for that.
.Whats more is he died that weekend of a heart attack. I never saw him again. God had allowed him to live long enough to finish what we were doing since he was serious about it despite how it started. Our meeting & his challenge to me was a divine appointment. Well he is now ETERNALLY grateful for what happened & so am I. I was disappointed I didn't get to disciple him in the Faith. Yet God put us together. I look forward to seeing him again when my time on earth is finished whenever that is.
You can't understand what you aren't truly willing to listen to & learn. He wasn't at first but as I proved to be his equal intellectually & esp on my turf of expertise. Then he became a true seeker for the TRUTH. which he knew in his heart he didn't have.
My prayer is someday you get serious about this. In this thread I've given 3-4 links to places that can answer your science questions. Bible questions I leave here just in case. www.apologeticspress.org. They have science & many Bible questions answered for skeptics atheist & seekers.
I'll let you decide. I've got a health issue that my Dr just can't figure out. It's been going on for a few months. It's recovered AGAIN! I see him tomorrow AGAIN. I hope we figure it out. If not or its bad then it's dedicated to honor God & my Lord & Savior regardless. That's always my prayer!
God Bless You All
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
The reality is that living organisms form through natural processes, and there is not a single shred of evidence that this process is in any way guided by intelligence. If there was, you would have presented it already.
Instead, you've waffled endlessly about robots - something that we already know is designed because we have obvious first-hand experience of their design process - instead of talking about living, biological systems. You know you can't actually demonstrate that biological systems are a result of design, so you avoid talking about them altogether.
You're presenting nothing that we haven't seen hundreds, if not thousands, of times on this forum. You have no argument, and you're boring us.
Go away and come back with something worthwhile.
The only one bullying is you and your threats of eternal suffering for those who do not believe what you believe. How weak is your position when you have to resort to tactics like that?
I've read all your links and commented on them. Have you bothered to read any of the links I've posted that refute your claims?
Why do you keep bringing this up? It's a personal anecdote that proves nothing and due to the lack of honesty you have displayed I doubt it ever happened.
Listened to as much of the evidence as I can from all sides over many years and all the evidence points to evolution.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
instead of books by people that are ignorant of dishonest it is best to post articles from well respected professional peer reviewed journals. Of course this poses quite a dilemma for you. Such articles do not appear to exist because there does not appear to be any scientific evidence for your beliefs. That is why no one takes you seriously here. All you have are bad arguments and a steadfast lack of education about the topic and a refusal to learn.
You are not going to get anywhere with this approach. So would you like my recipe for Spaghetti Carbonara instead?
He keeps trying to smuggle purpose in through the back door by going on a about function. You do not need a biology degree to recognize that cells have functions, tissues have functions, organs have functions and so on. Even species within an ecosystem function in some capacity. Yet, he keeps failing to show is assertions about function are evidence of design. It can all be explained by natural selection.
I have read the assertions and arguments too. Nothing there.
I could not imagine volunteering to spend three hours a week listening to this incoherent broken record make the same assertions and disparaging remarks over and over again.
Patriottechsan
Member
You know what's so extremely sad about you & others. My friend the 2 Engineer guy. As an Engineer he knew how things really work what it takes to make them work FUNCTIONAALY & that it takes an ID to have FUNCTIONAL DESIGN in real life just like it does it nature. Because in Nature things are not only DESIGNED they work as they are FUNCTIONALLY DESIGNED to work & that always requires an ID. He recognized that immediately. Why with Robotics etc he knew I had him in a corner he couldn't get out of & be honest to his education, profession , common sense logic etc. You are none of those. I didn't realize how fortunate I was with him. Yet actually I do because it was a divine appointment that God had set up before time began.
You guys aren't his equal in many ways & knowing him. We're he alive. Man would he eat your lunch on here for acting as you are. It's exposing you & your hypocrisy etc.
He'd actually laugh at the unrealistic arguments you keep parroting that Evolution has taught you WHAT to THINK w/o teaching you HOW to THINK much with critical analysis.
Sadly I didn't realize at that time how fortunate I was that his vast education & esp in Engineering & therefore knowing what all it takes to go from an idea to produce a DESIGN & then produce a FUNCTIONAL DESIGN & all the ID it requires. Despite his extreme active atheism which prompted him to challenge me in the first place.
Yet due to his deep knowledge of the above & despite his atheistic activism. He was an HONEST academic & would abide by the ground rules we BOTH agreed to before we started.
Sure he knew I was educated before we started but his ego knew his 2 Dr. trumped my 2 Masters. So he looked down on me at first. Then after just a few weeks he finally told me & admitted to me that I was his equal & esp in the areas we were covering. He then lost his arrogance & we proceeded as equals in even his mind. That was a key turning point. I went at it as if we were traveling the road of searching for the truth together. I just let him set the pace & subjects as we traveled together.
We're he alive today & I was able to get him on this thread. He would truly dress you guys down for being so academically dishonest & not actually understanding how things really work & proving how brainwashed you truly are. It's that tragic.
I hate seeing it for your sake.
You've made your bed. So you will have to live with it Eternally. Praise God he was like he was ultimately & esp at the end. Because now his Eternity is going to spent where he never imagined existed & had always fought against.
I wish the same for you someday. But like him. The next day isn't guaranteed. Had he told me or actually Jesus no that Friday afternoon. His Eternity would have been eternally different. Less than 24 hours was the difference. ETERNITY IS TOO LONG TO BE WRONG! I've said all can say. The rest is on you. You have access to everything you need.
Even reading books by Lee Strobel
Josh McDowell or going back in history. The Lawyer Simon Greenleaf that wrote the Rules of evidence still used today while at Harvard in 1800's. He was avid Atheist. His students challenged him to use his own rules of evidence to prove or disprove the Bible & Jesus. He took that challenge thinking it would be easy. He wrote a book afterwards confirming the Bible & Jesus & becoming a dedicated Christian himself. See if someone will actually honestly look at the evidence all the evidence is there. Don't just read the skeptics etc that validate your bias. Honest research means you have to look, read the evidence for & study it all otherwise it's dishonest research.
God Bless
You guys aren't his equal in many ways & knowing him. We're he alive. Man would he eat your lunch on here for acting as you are. It's exposing you & your hypocrisy etc.
He'd actually laugh at the unrealistic arguments you keep parroting that Evolution has taught you WHAT to THINK w/o teaching you HOW to THINK much with critical analysis.
Sadly I didn't realize at that time how fortunate I was that his vast education & esp in Engineering & therefore knowing what all it takes to go from an idea to produce a DESIGN & then produce a FUNCTIONAL DESIGN & all the ID it requires. Despite his extreme active atheism which prompted him to challenge me in the first place.
Yet due to his deep knowledge of the above & despite his atheistic activism. He was an HONEST academic & would abide by the ground rules we BOTH agreed to before we started.
Sure he knew I was educated before we started but his ego knew his 2 Dr. trumped my 2 Masters. So he looked down on me at first. Then after just a few weeks he finally told me & admitted to me that I was his equal & esp in the areas we were covering. He then lost his arrogance & we proceeded as equals in even his mind. That was a key turning point. I went at it as if we were traveling the road of searching for the truth together. I just let him set the pace & subjects as we traveled together.
We're he alive today & I was able to get him on this thread. He would truly dress you guys down for being so academically dishonest & not actually understanding how things really work & proving how brainwashed you truly are. It's that tragic.
I hate seeing it for your sake.
You've made your bed. So you will have to live with it Eternally. Praise God he was like he was ultimately & esp at the end. Because now his Eternity is going to spent where he never imagined existed & had always fought against.
I wish the same for you someday. But like him. The next day isn't guaranteed. Had he told me or actually Jesus no that Friday afternoon. His Eternity would have been eternally different. Less than 24 hours was the difference. ETERNITY IS TOO LONG TO BE WRONG! I've said all can say. The rest is on you. You have access to everything you need.
Even reading books by Lee Strobel
Josh McDowell or going back in history. The Lawyer Simon Greenleaf that wrote the Rules of evidence still used today while at Harvard in 1800's. He was avid Atheist. His students challenged him to use his own rules of evidence to prove or disprove the Bible & Jesus. He took that challenge thinking it would be easy. He wrote a book afterwards confirming the Bible & Jesus & becoming a dedicated Christian himself. See if someone will actually honestly look at the evidence all the evidence is there. Don't just read the skeptics etc that validate your bias. Honest research means you have to look, read the evidence for & study it all otherwise it's dishonest research.
God Bless
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
And if my imaginary friend were still around, I'm sure he'd beat up your imaginary friend and steal his lunch money too.
Are you going to stop telling inane stories and present an argument or actual evidence any time soon?