World Peace and Religion

Trailblazer · Jun 1, 2019

CG Didymus said:
And what do you know about this early form of Christianity that was "the truth"? What did they believe? Who were they? What happened to them? Were the apostles, including Paul, part of this? And, what writings did they use and which did they reject?

I do not know a lot about early Christianity, but I know it was based upon what Jesus taught.
I think someone started a thread on early Christianity not long ago but I cannot find it now.

No, Paul was not part of this. I posted this thread last October:
How Paul changed the course of Christianity

CG Didymus · Jun 2, 2019

Trailblazer said:
ALL of these verses refer to Baha’u’llah and He fulfilled them all perfectly.

If prophesies were fulfilled "perfectly" things would be a lot different. But, they aren't. A child is given? When was Baha'u'llah referred to a the "child" that was given? The "lamb that was slain"? Sounds like Jesus. He was referred to as the "Lamb". But, Baha'is have said "no". The word for "lamb" in Revelation is a different Greek word. And, Jesus was crucified not slain, therefore, Baha'is have said, this is about The Bab.

Wars and rumors of wars are still happening, but that doesn't concern Baha'is. The wars and rumors of wars that matter were the ones in the 1800's. Prophecy can be made into anything. They can be literal on parts of the verses quoted and symbolic on other parts.

So here's a prophecy from Revelation 21:4 4

'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

So will pain and suffering cease? Obviously not. Baha'u'llah did not literally fulfill this prophecy. And, how great of a world is it, if we still have death, disease and pain? So... will he literally fulfill prophecies about bringing peace?

But, there's more problems in the fulfillment of prophecies. The verses that follow refer to God, the Glory of God, but also the Lamb.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Who is the Lamb? The Bab? I don't think so. It makes it pretty clear that it is Jesus. Supposedly Jesus himself says in verse 16 that he is the one talking. That it is he that is the root of David. And in verse 12 that he's the one coming quickly. So how do you put a Baha'i interpretation on all this?

It would be great if God didn't make prophecies so ambiguous. But he did. Baha'is are so sure they have the Truth, the answers, the way to bring peace. But, there are so little reasons for the people of the other religions to leave their religion and accept Baha'u'llah as the fulfillment of their religion's prophecies. It seems just too vague.

Trailblazer · Jun 2, 2019

CG Didymus said:
If prophesies were fulfilled "perfectly" things would be a lot different. But, they aren't. A child is given? When was Baha'u'llah referred to a the "child" that was given? The "lamb that was slain"? Sounds like Jesus. He was referred to as the "Lamb". But, Baha'is have said "no". The word for "lamb" in Revelation is a different Greek word. And, Jesus was crucified not slain, therefore, Baha'is have said, this is about The Bab.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 9:6 has to refer to Baha'u'llah because the government is clearly upon His shoulders:
The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

So that means that Baha'u'llah was the child, a son. He was not the Son of God, that was Jesus, but He was a son of someone.

Jesus was the lamb who was slain. I do not give a rip what "Bahais say." I am not Baha'is, I am Susan. Okay, now you know my real name, come after me. Lol, everyone knows my real name on my other forums, I have nothing to hide from anyone.

CG Didymus said:
Wars and rumors of wars are still happening, but that doesn't concern Baha'is. The wars and rumors of wars that matter were the ones in the 1800's. Prophecy can be made into anything. They can be literal on parts of the verses quoted and symbolic on other parts.

Some prophecies can be interpreted in multiple ways but others cannot. The salient point is that all the Bible prophecies can fit Baha'u'llah whereas all the prophecies CANNOT fit Jesus.... Thus there is a problem with Jesus "being" the Messiah... This is logic 101 stuff.

CG Didymus said:
So here's a prophecy from Revelation 21:4

'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
So will pain and suffering cease? Obviously not. Baha'u'llah did not literally fulfill this prophecy. And, how great of a world is it, if we still have death, disease and pain? So... will he literally fulfill prophecies about bringing peace?

WHERE does it say that the Messiah Himself will fulfill these prophecies during His lifetime?
WHERE does it say these prophecies will be fulfilled at any certain time? NOWHERE.

WHY do we still have death? We have spiritual death because most people have rejected Baha'u'llah and clung to the religions of the past which are all but dead. We have diseases and pain because that is the order of the material world GOD created. But over time, during the Messianic Age that will last a long, long time, disease and pain will diminish.

CG Didymus said:
But, there's more problems in the fulfillment of prophecies. The verses that follow refer to God, the Glory of God, but also the Lamb.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Who is the Lamb? The Bab? I don't think so. It makes it pretty clear that it is Jesus. Supposedly Jesus himself says in verse 16 that he is the one talking. That it is he that is the root of David. And in verse 12 that he's the one coming quickly. So how do you put a Baha'i interpretation on all this?

Jesus is NOT coming back to earth and Jesus is not going to build the Kingdom of God on earth....
He said so.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

But apparently Christians can't read and understand PLAIN English. That is because they WANT Jesus to come back, and they cannot FACE the fact that he is NOT coming back. This is psych 101 stuff.

Baha'u'llah claimed to BE Jesus, because He was the Spirit of Christ. a body is just a body, it is not the person, it is just the outer shell that houses the soul.

“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92

CG Didymus said:
It would be great if God didn't make prophecies so ambiguous. But he did. Baha'is are so sure they have the Truth, the answers, the way to bring peace. But, there are so little reasons for the people of the other religions to leave their religion and accept Baha'u'llah as the fulfillment of their religion's prophecies. It seems just too vague.

Vague? No, when you put all the prophecies together, it is anything but vague:

William Sears, Thief in the Night
Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

The real truth is that the adherents to those older religions do not WANT to believe in a NEW religion, because they tenaciously cling to their older religions. They WANT the prophecies to be fulfilled in such a way that their religion is the one that is the One True Religion that will reign supreme forever and ever... but it isn't. Sorry to break the bad news to them, which is really the good news they do not want to face:

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.

In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme. Were We to make mention of all that hath been revealed in these heavenly Books and holy Scriptures concerning this Revelation, this Tablet would assume impossible dimensions. It is incumbent in this Day, upon every man to place his whole trust in the manifold bounties of God, and arise to disseminate, with the utmost wisdom, the verities of His Cause. Then, and only then, will the whole earth be enveloped with the morning light of His Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-14

And that is EXACTLY what Baha'u'llah DID, all throughout His Writings ---He exalted the Lord God alone. How blind people can be never ceases to amaze me.... then again emotions normally supersede rational thought.

joe1776 · Jun 3, 2019

Trailblazer said:
These advances happen because a new religion has come to town, even if people are unaware of its presence.
The Holy Spirit has been released into the world once again, and it is affecting ALL of humanity....

Your acceptance of this belief is based on faith, a belief without evidence. My mind in incapable of faith. If it was capable of faith, I'd still be a Catholic. So, there's no chance you can persuade me that you're right.

My mind and yours are capable of conscience which guides us morally provided we are unbiased. Fortunately, it is the nagging of conscience which is allowing moral advances like the abolition of slavery and equality for women, homosexuals, and all minority groups.

Samana Johann · Jun 3, 2019

In a striking piece of poetry (Sn 4:15), the Buddha once described the sense of samvega–terror or dismay–that inspired him to look for an end to suffering....Objectivication and The path to end conflict

Valjean · Jun 3, 2019

Nakosis said:
Where opposing sides share a religion, like in WWI it helps. When they don't, not so much.

I think it was more the holiday nostalgia that provoked the detente. The combatants were presumably just as religious the week before.

[/QUOTE]

ACEofALLaces said:
And then John took another deep drag from his 'pipe', set it down and looked around for something to 'munch on', before taking a nap.
Even if I WERE a 'believer', I would have extreme difficulty accepting the validity and veracity of the rantings of someone being held in solitary on the Island of Patmos, for as long as John had been imprisioned there.
It amazes me that the RCC even permitted the book of Revelation to be included in the canon, as bizarre as it is.

And, of course, most scholars don't consider John the apostle the actual author of the book anyway.

Valjean · Jun 3, 2019

Milton Platt said:
Religion is divisive by nature. It sets up a "we versus them" mentality.

Big Religion is tribal, it's a social construct that often sets up an artificial "we vs them" divisiveness. In this way it's more like sports fandom than a philosophical theory or ethical system. In fact, the actual ethics officially promoted by a given religion seem to be the first thing discarded when it clashes with personal sentiments or political goals.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Faith in One God as one humanity will restore our peace and security, but not before we take ourselves to the brink of destruction. The world is still trying to do away with God and that has still some time to go.

Do away with God?! It seems to me the world's desperately trying to prop up a God despite diminishing empirical support for the concept.

Valjean · Jun 3, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Religion does not do that, religious people do that.

Yes, they use religion to justify or bolster their particular passions.

sooda · Jun 3, 2019

ACEofALLaces said:
And then John took another deep drag from his 'pipe', set it down and looked around for something to 'munch on', before taking a nap.
Even if I WERE a 'believer', I would have extreme difficulty accepting the validity and veracity of the rantings of someone being held in solitary on the Island of Patmos, for as long as John had been imprisioned there.
It amazes me that the RCC even permitted the book of Revelation to be included in the canon, as bizarre as it is.

Apocalyptic literature was VERY popular for about 300 years. It was entertaining.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 3, 2019

Valjean said:
Do away with God?! It seems to me the world's desperately trying to prop up a God despite diminishing empirical support for the concept.

Then we can just consider this;

Regards Tony

Trailblazer · Jun 3, 2019

joe1776 said:
Your acceptance of this belief is based on faith, a belief without evidence. My mind in incapable of faith. If it was capable of faith, I'd still be a Catholic. So, there's no chance you can persuade me that you're right.

I understand that we cannot all have faith. I am not trying to persuade you of anything.

joe1776 said:
My mind and yours are capable of conscience which guides us morally provided we are unbiased. Fortunately, it is the nagging of conscience which is allowing moral advances like the abolition of slavery and equality for women, homosexuals, and all minority groups.

Conscience and caring about other people is what is most important.
Beliefs do not make anyone a good person.

Trailblazer · Jun 3, 2019

Valjean said:
Yes, they use religion to justify or bolster their particular passions.

Or maybe they just believe their religion is the Truth from God and not about them.

Valjean · Jun 3, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Then we can just consider this;

Regards Tony

One planet, one people; sounds great -- but unnatural. Till we can alter out tribal, Pleostocene neuropsychology, a planetary monoculture is unlikely.
As Johnathan Haidt said: Our minds are designed by evolution to unite us into teams, and divide us against other teams.

We're wired for conflict.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 3, 2019

Valjean said:
One planet, one people; sounds great -- but unnatural. Till we can alter out tribal, Pleostocene neuropsychology, a planetary monoculture is unlikely.
As Johnathan Haidt said: Our minds are designed by evolution to unite us into teams, and divide us against other teams.

We're wired for conflict.

Johnathan Haidt does not see that we can control those instincts. I unwired myself, as many millions also have.

I joined the Army in Australia, left and now I am a soldier of lasting peace. Words are the swords of this age. Weapons now have a limited use within a well controlled justice system.

We can and will change.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Jun 3, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Vague? No, when you put all the prophecies together, it is anything but vague:

Of course they are not vague to you. You say you don't know much about the Bible, yet you believe what you are told by Baha'is. So yes, you do give a "rip" about what other Baha'is tell you to believe.

Some of the weakest interpretations I've seen by Baha'is are by Abdul Baha in SAQ. Do you believe it? Have you read the Bible verses quoted to see if his interpretation makes sense?

Same with Bill Sears, I heard him speak several times in the 70's. It all sounded good. It probably sounds good to you. Did you check the Bible references for yourself? Without any biases? Probably not. You probably don't give a "rip".

Well that's fine. But that's why the Baha'i Faith can't bring peace even to religious people. Most don't give a "rip" about the opinions and interpretations of the others. And that don't bring peace and understanding between them.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 3, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Same with Bill Sears, I heard him speak several times in the 70's. It all sounded good. It probably sounds good to you. Did you check the Bible references for yourself? Without any biases? Probably not. You probably don't give a "rip".

I am a William sears inspired Baha'i.

I found the explanations sound and reasonable and that has only been confirmed by another 35 yeras of study and reading.

But I had no preconceived ideas.

Regards Tony

Trailblazer · Jun 3, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Of course they are not vague to you. You say you don't know much about the Bible, yet you believe what you are told by Baha'is. So yes, you do give a "rip" about what other Baha'is tell you to believe.

No, I do not believe what other Baha'is tell me, but I believe the research that William Sears did.

CG Didymus said:
Some of the weakest interpretations I've seen by Baha'is are by Abdul Baha in SAQ. Do you believe it? Have you read the Bible verses quoted to see if his interpretation makes sense?

Why do you call them weak? Do you have better interpretations?
I could read the Bible and come up with my own interpretation, but why would I know more than Abdu'l-Baha, the son of a Manifestation of God who was by His side from childhood and throughout His life? Gimmmie a break.

CG Didymus said:
Same with Bill Sears, I heard him speak several times in the 70's. It all sounded good. It probably sounds good to you. Did you check the Bible references for yourself? Without any biases? Probably not. You probably don't give a "rip".

No, I am not that arrogant to think that *** I *** could ever know as much as someone like Sears who was once a Christian and later researched the prophecies for 7 years and even went to the Holy Land.

CG Didymus said:
Well that's fine. But that's why the Baha'i Faith can't bring peace even to religious people. Most don't give a "rip" about the opinions and interpretations of the others. And that don't bring peace and understanding between them.

No, the Baha'is cannot bring peace to religious people is because religious people tenaciously cling to their old outdated religions and their various interpretations of them...
This clinging to the past is the entire problem, but the problem is that most Baha'is just coddle other religious believers instead of telling them the truth about what we believe.... but I am no coddler.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

There will never be unity until the other religions accept that Baha'u'llah was the Manifestation of God for this age. It WILL happen, but we probably won't see it in our lifetimes.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249

Trailblazer · Jun 3, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
and that has only been confirmed by another 35 years of study and reading.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
But I had no preconceived ideas.

Ancient Soul · Jun 3, 2019

CG Didymus said:
If prophesies were fulfilled "perfectly" things would be a lot different. But, they aren't. A child is given? When was Baha'u'llah referred to a the "child" that was given? The "lamb that was slain"? Sounds like Jesus. He was referred to as the "Lamb". But, Baha'is have said "no". The word for "lamb" in Revelation is a different Greek word. And, Jesus was crucified not slain, therefore, Baha'is have said, this is about The Bab.

Wars and rumors of wars are still happening, but that doesn't concern Baha'is. The wars and rumors of wars that matter were the ones in the 1800's. Prophecy can be made into anything. They can be literal on parts of the verses quoted and symbolic on other parts.

So here's a prophecy from Revelation 21:4 4

'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
So will pain and suffering cease? Obviously not. Baha'u'llah did not literally fulfill this prophecy. And, how great of a world is it, if we still have death, disease and pain? So... will he literally fulfill prophecies about bringing peace?

But, there's more problems in the fulfillment of prophecies. The verses that follow refer to God, the Glory of God, but also the Lamb.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Who is the Lamb? The Bab? I don't think so. It makes it pretty clear that it is Jesus. Supposedly Jesus himself says in verse 16 that he is the one talking. That it is he that is the root of David. And in verse 12 that he's the one coming quickly. So how do you put a Baha'i interpretation on all this?

It would be great if God didn't make prophecies so ambiguous. But he did. Baha'is are so sure they have the Truth, the answers, the way to bring peace. But, there are so little reasons for the people of the other religions to leave their religion and accept Baha'u'llah as the fulfillment of their religion's prophecies. It seems just too vague.

But that's what >ALL< man made religions are all about, vagueness.

TransmutingSoul · Jun 3, 2019

Trailblazer said:

My good JW friend and I also have had 30 years of discussions over tea and biscuits. It has been interesting to see the change of arguments over those years, back in the 80's the merit of 1844 was still to be had in JW discussions.

Such is life!

Regards Tony

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