World Peace and Religion

CG Didymus · May 29, 2019

Trailblazer said:
The Baha'is ARE doing a lot of these things, but there are only so many of us, so we have to consider what the priorities are. The Old World Order is crumbling so there is no point trying to fix it... It makes more sense to work on building up the New World Order...

Climate change is another matter and lots of Baha'is work on that....
» Climate Change | U.S. Baha'i Office of Public Affairs

I was at the Peace Conference in San Francisco. The year the Baha'is put out their Peace Statement. Where is the momentum from that? What ever happened? What did the Baha'is expect to happen? I live close to San Francisco and I never hear anything about the Baha'is. The only thing I hear is "We so few in number." I was with my Baha'i friends on Mass teaching trips. There was a big push to get greater numbers. What happened? I used to hear Baha'is tell stories of whole villages becoming Baha'is. What happened to them? Are they still all Baha'is? It's been 50 years almost since then. What's been happening? Why isn't it growing?

The world has always been on the brink of disaster. Baha'u'llah has been and gone and we've had two World Wars, almost a nuclear war, and now all kinds of wars ready to break out. And then there's a thing Jesus said. Something like that there will be wars and rumors of wars... but that is not yet the end. Many Christians interpret that as that He doesn't return yet. But... not Baha'is. There's wars and more wars and Baha'is say that this is all part of the travails. Which one of you will be right?

The_Fisher_King · May 29, 2019

Trailblazer said:
So you believe that Jesus and the Messiah are two different people who will work together?

I believe that Yeshua (pbuh) is the Messiah, but the Mahdi is a different person.

Trailblazer said:
Why do you believe in an Antichrist?

Why does one believe in any of the things one believes in? You might just as well ask 'Why do you believe in God?'

CG Didymus · May 29, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Baha'is believe all people will become Baha'is but not that they should.

The_Fisher_King said:
All people should become Muslims now, because Islam is the best religion, the best path for all people to follow.

Christians say the same thing. The problem is that the Baha'is are supposed to be the unifiers, the peace bringers, but by saying that their message is the latest and only one that is correct for these times, it is not unifying the other religions... it is putting them off and cause more diversion by adding the Baha'i Faith to the mix. Just one more religion that thinks it is best.

What is really strange for me is that Baha'is will say things like the "original" message was the truth from God, but it got corrupted. But, by what Baha'is say is the truth totally contradicts the most "original" teachings we have about Jesus and what he and his followers taught. They believed in a physical heaven and hell, a Satan, the devil, in physical resurrection, and, eventually, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were part of a Godhead. So Christians have never, ever been right. They didn't have a spring, summer, fall and then decline into a winter. They never had nor taught the truth... if the Baha'i version of the "truth" is the one that is correct.

And Baha'is have no problem telling the other religions where they are wrong in their beliefs. And, by doing that are not bringing unity and peace to religious people but more arguing and misunderstandings about what is the truth about spiritual things. If the Baha'is aren't going to bring the religions together, than how can there be a peaceful world? Religions will continue to fight and argue between each other.

Trailblazer · May 29, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Then who is the child? Who does it fit? Christians bend it to fit by making Jesus come back and fulfill the prophecies. Baha'u'llah doesn't have the government on his shoulders either. So too much of this prophecy fulfilling stuff only works for the believers.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The child must be Baha’u’llah because the rest of that verse refers to Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

CG Didymus said:
They take part of a verse and say, "See, this is clearing talking about our guy." But, the whole verse in context is not. Like Jesus in Isaiah 7:14-15.

The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Yes, Christians do take liberties in wanting to have all the verses refer to Jesus when all of them do not refer to Jesus. Isaiah 53 is a good example. Most of this chapter refers to Baha’u’llah and it cannot possibly refer to Jesus. Isaiah 53:3, Isaiah 53:4, and Isaiah 53:5 could refer to Jesus, but Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot refer to Jesus. Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment. Jesus did not make his grave with the wicked and the rich. Jesus did not see His seed. Jesus’ days were cut short, they were not prolonged. ALL of these verses refer to Baha’u’llah and He fulfilled them all perfectly.

CG Didymus said:
Baha'is do it with many things in the Bible. One Baha'i said that the Bab is the Lamb that was slain in Revelation. But when was the Bab ever referred to as the Lamb? Christians twist them. Baha'is twist them. And each believes their interpretation is right. But both are taking them out of context.’

As Baha’is, we are told that we are not at liberty to say WE KNOW what certain Bible verses mean unless they were interpreted by Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi. Anything else Baha’is come up with is just their own conjecture, it is not authoritative Baha’i interpretation.

Trailblazer · May 29, 2019

CG Didymus said:
I was at the Peace Conference in San Francisco. The year the Baha'is put out their Peace Statement. Where is the momentum from that? What ever happened? What did the Baha'is expect to happen? I live close to San Francisco and I never hear anything about the Baha'is. The only thing I hear is "We so few in number." I was with my Baha'i friends on Mass teaching trips. There was a big push to get greater numbers. What happened? I used to hear Baha'is tell stories of whole villages becoming Baha'is. What happened to them? Are they still all Baha'is? It's been 50 years almost since then. What's been happening? Why isn't it growing?

I wish I knew the answers to all those questions, but I can only conjecture, and I might be wrong.I think that Baha’is, at least in America, are affected by the crass materialism which has only worsened since the 1970s with the coming of the electronic age. Remember how idealistic people were back in the 1960s and 1970s? I became a Baha’i when I lived in southern California in 1970 when Baha’is were excited about teaching the Faith. It seems like now all they care about is children classes and race unity. I do not see how that is going to increase the numbers.

Moreover, community building is what the UHJ is now stressing. That gives Baha’is an excuse not to teach. Let’s get real. Not many people want to talk to people about a “new religion” only to get insulted and told we are antichrists and the like. If we live in a liberal state like where I live it might not be so bad, but even here people are predominantly Christians.

CG Didymus said:
The world has always been on the brink of disaster. Baha'u'llah has been and gone and we've had two World Wars, almost a nuclear war, and now all kinds of wars ready to break out.

The wars and more wars is only part of the travails that were foretold by Baha’u’llah. Shoghi Effendi summarizes this process...

“A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth. Its driving power is remorselessly gaining in range and momentum. Its cleansing force, however much undetected, is increasing with every passing day. Humanity, gripped in the clutches of its devastating power, is smitten by the evidences of its resistless fury. It can neither perceive its origin, nor probe its significance, nor discern its outcome. Bewildered, agonized and helpless, it watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations, deranging its equilibrium, sundering its nations, disrupting the homes of its peoples, wasting its cities, driving into exile its kings, pulling down its bulwarks, uprooting its institutions, dimming its light, and harrowing up the souls of its inhabitants.

“The time for the destruction of the world and its people,” Bahá’u’lláh’s prophetic pen has proclaimed, “hath arrived.” “The hour is approaching,” He specifically affirms, “when the most great convulsion will have appeared.” “The promised day is come, the day when tormenting trials will have surged above your heads, and beneath your feet, saying: ‘Taste ye what your hands have wrought!’” “Soon shall the blasts of His chastisement beat upon you, and the dust of hell enshroud you.” And again: “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.” “The day is approaching when its [civilization’s] flame will devour the cities, when the Tongue of Grandeur will proclaim: ‘The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Praised!’” “The day will soon come,” He, referring to the foolish ones of the earth, has written, “whereon they will cry out for help and receive no answer.” “The day is approaching,” He moreover has prophesied, “when the wrathful anger of the Almighty will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto Him.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 3-4

CG Didymus said:
And then there's a thing Jesus said. Something like that there will be wars and rumors of wars... but that is not yet the end. Many Christians interpret that as that He doesn't return yet. But... not Baha'is. There's wars and more wars and Baha'is say that this is all part of the travails. Which one of you will be right?

Jesus foretold that there would be wars and rumours of wars and then the end would come, and He would return.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

This prophecy was fulfilled during the 19th century.

“Bible scholar Paul K. Dealy in his Dawn of Knowledge writes:
“History records the following great wars among the leading nations: (1) About this time a war was in progress between China and England terminating in the loss of Hong Kong to the former. A treaty was signed between them in 1842. (2) The Crimean War—England, France and Turkey against Russia 1854. (3) The atrocious Sepoy mutiny 1857–8. (4) France and Italy against Austria 1859. (5) Civil war of the United States1861–65. (6) Franco-Prussian war 1870–1. (7) Russian-Turkish war 1877–8. (8) And during the last decade the wars between China and Japan, Turkey and Greece, Spain and the United States, the invasion of China by all the great powers, and the Boer war.”

To this list could be added the two greatest world wars that mankind had ever seen. The Korean war, the war in Indo-China, the Arab-Jewish war, the multiplying minor wars and revolutions within countries, the increasing border skirmishes, the constant ‘cold war’ and the never-ending newspaper headlines that threaten man daily with ‘rumours of wars’. Certainly the words of Christ aptly fit this day.”

From: Thief in the Night

Trailblazer · May 29, 2019

The_Fisher_King said:
I believe that Yeshua (pbuh) is the Messiah, but the Mahdi is a different person.'

Sorry, I still do not understand. So you believe that both Yeshua and the Mahdi are going to come and work together? If you believe that Yeshua (pbuh) is the Messiah, do you believe it will be the same man Yeshua that comes to earth? The only way that would be possible is if Yeshu rose from the dead and ascended to heaven in the same body.

The_Fisher_King said:
Why does one believe in any of the things one believes in? You might just as well ask 'Why do you believe in God?'

What I really meant to ask is if there is a reference to the Antichrist in the Qur’an.

The_Fisher_King · May 30, 2019

Trailblazer said:
So you believe that both Yeshua and the Mahdi are going to come and work together?

Yup.

Trailblazer said:
If you believe that Yeshua (pbuh) is the Messiah, do you believe it will be the same man Yeshua that comes to earth?

I believe that it is the soul/spirit 'inside' all people's physical bodies which is who they really are (not their 'outer' physical bodies). Accordingly, when I say that Yeshua (pbuh) will return, I believe that his spirit will return/reincarnate in another physical body.

Trailblazer said:
What I really meant to ask is if there is a reference to the Antichrist in the Qur’an.

There are references to the Antichrist in the Hadiths.

Trailblazer · May 30, 2019

CG Didymus said:
Trailblazer said: Baha'is believe all people will become Baha'is but not that they should.

The_Fisher_King said: All people should become Muslims now, because Islam is the best religion, the best path for all people to follow.

Christians say the same thing. The problem is that the Baha'is are supposed to be the unifiers, the peace bringers, but by saying that their message is the latest and only one that is correct for these times, it is not unifying the other religions... it is putting them off and cause more diversion by adding the Baha'i Faith to the mix. Just one more religion that thinks it is best.

But there is NO WAY around that... The Baha’i Faith is the newest and the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah unconditionally abrogates all the dispensations of the past. I do not CARE if it puts people off. Why pretend and lie to people? They can either choose to give up their old religions and become Baha’is or they can stay in their old religions.

The Baha’i Faith is either what Baha’u’llah claimed it is or not. If it is, then the older religions will have to step aside, if not now, eventually, because NOBODY can thwart the Will of God.

CG Didymus said:
What is really strange for me is that Baha'is will say things like the "original" message was the truth from God, but it got corrupted. But, by what Baha'is say is the truth totally contradicts the most "original" teachings we have about Jesus and what he and his followers taught. They believed in a physical heaven and hell, a Satan, the devil, in physical resurrection, and, eventually, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were part of a Godhead. So Christians have never, ever been right. They didn't have a spring, summer, fall and then decline into a winter. They never had nor taught the truth... if the Baha'i version of the "truth" is the one that is correct.

That is not completely true, because in the very early days of Christianity, before the Council of Nicaea sealed the deal on all the false doctrines of the church, there was a form of Christianity that was “the truth.” Moreover, Baha’u’llah said that the Bible is the God’s greatest testimony to His creatures; it is the interpretation of the Bible that the Christians came up with that is false.

CG Didymus said:
And Baha'is have no problem telling the other religions where they are wrong in their beliefs. And, by doing that are not bringing unity and peace to religious people but more arguing and misunderstandings about what is the truth about spiritual things. If the Baha'is aren't going to bring the religions together, than how can there be a peaceful world? Religions will continue to fight and argue between each other.

Before anything can really change in the world, the older religions are going to have to understand that their older religions have been superseded by a new religion that is more pertinent to the times.

I find this verse very significant:
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Jesus was right, as that is what actually happens... Christians or Jews or any older religious believers who have drunk the old wine do not desire the new Baha’i wine; they say the old is better. But that is just too bad, because God has now revealed the new wine, and there is NOTHING any of those older religions can do about it. The Will of God will prevail eventually, as Baha’u’llah said:

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249

Trailblazer · May 30, 2019

The_Fisher_King said:
“So you believe that both Yeshua and the Mahdi are going to come and work together?”

Yup.

This is a new one on me...
From what I read about Islam, the Sunnis and the Shias each believe in one or the other coming, not BOTH.

The_Fisher_King said:
I believe that it is the soul/spirit 'inside' all people's physical bodies which is who they really are (not their 'outer' physical bodies). Accordingly, when I say that Yeshua (pbuh) will return, I believe that his spirit will return/reincarnate in another physical body.

Whew! I am glad to hear that you do not believe what Christians do, that his physical body will return.

The_Fisher_King said:
There are references to the Antichrist in the Hadiths.

What exactly are the Hadiths and do you believe they carry the same authority as the Qur’an?

The_Fisher_King · May 31, 2019

Trailblazer said:
This is a new one on me...
From what I read about Islam, the Sunnis and the Shias each believe in one or the other coming, not BOTH.

It's a common enough, if not universal, view. Check these Wikipedia pages: Second Coming - Wikipedia and Mahdi - Wikipedia.

Trailblazer said:
What exactly are the Hadiths and do you believe they carry the same authority as the Qur’an?

The sayings or traditions of Muhammad (pbuh). No, they do not carry the same authority as the Qur'an, but where authenticated and as long as they do not contradict the Qur'an, they are a very useful adjunct to it.

sooda · May 31, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The child must be Baha’u’llah because the rest of that verse refers to Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Yes, Christians do take liberties in wanting to have all the verses refer to Jesus when all of them do not refer to Jesus. Isaiah 53 is a good example. Most of this chapter refers to Baha’u’llah and it cannot possibly refer to Jesus. Isaiah 53:3, Isaiah 53:4, and Isaiah 53:5 could refer to Jesus, but Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot refer to Jesus. Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment. Jesus did not make his grave with the wicked and the rich. Jesus did not see His seed. Jesus’ days were cut short, they were not prolonged. ALL of these verses refer to Baha’u’llah and He fulfilled them all perfectly.

As Baha’is, we are told that we are not at liberty to say WE KNOW what certain Bible verses mean unless they were interpreted by Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi. Anything else Baha’is come up with is just their own conjecture, it is not authoritative Baha’i interpretation.

You nailed it... Some Christians think all of Isaiah and Daniel are about Jesus.

Trailblazer · May 31, 2019

The_Fisher_King said:
It's a common enough, if not universal, view. Check these Wikipedia pages: Second Coming - Wikipedia and Mahdi - Wikipedia.

Will do.

The_Fisher_King said:
The sayings or traditions of Muhammad (pbuh). No, they do not carry the same authority as the Qur'an, but where authenticated and as long as they do not contradict the Qur'an, they are a very useful adjunct to it.

Okay, that is what I have heard.

We also have adjuncts to the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Trailblazer · May 31, 2019

sooda said:
You nailed it... Some Christians think all of Isaiah and Daniel are about Jesus.

And you don't?
So what do you think they are about?

sooda · May 31, 2019

Trailblazer said:
And you don't?
So what do you think they are about?

Antiochus and Cyrus.

Ponder This · May 31, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I do not think we have to give up our individuality in order to have harmony.

I believe that humanity is like a beautiful garden full of different flowers. As Abdu’l-Baha said each person is like a flower that has a peculiar beauty and a beautiful color. Yet all these flowers spring from the same earth. The same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.

So the differences in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, not of hate and discord.

All people are seeking the truth and many roads lead to truth. Truth has many aspects but it is forever one.

I do not allow differences of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate me from others, or to cause hatred or strife in my heart. I rather seek diligently to make all people my friends. We are all flowers of one garden, waves of one sea. But that does not mean we all have to agree.

BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

Does this Garden Utopia include the Bindweed?
Is this a harmonious strangling?

Trailblazer · May 31, 2019

Ponder This said:
Does this Garden Utopia include the Bindweed?
Is this a harmonious strangling?

What is Bindweed?

What is harmonious strangling?

Ancient Soul · Jun 1, 2019

Ponder This said:
Religion has been responsible for creating peace and for disrupting peace.
in 1914, during World War I, there was a cessation of hostilities as people from both sides celebrated Christmas together. Some even refusing to go back to fighting each other.
In the 2018 Olympics, North and South Korea joined together to compete as a single team.

Emperor Theodosius was the last Roman Emperor to rule over a united East and West Roman Empire.
He declared Nicene Christianity to be the official state church of the Roman Empire, he allowed the temples of the old religions to be destroyed, and he banned the Olympics because they were pagan. Historians use his death to mark the beginning of the Middle Ages.

When we consider that religion is the basis of a common bond among people. It seems that World Peace hinges upon religion. Religion will either Save the World or it will Destroy It.

Thoughts?

ALL religions are man made mythologies designed to control and divide people. Each one proclaiming that THEY are "right" and everybody else has it "wrong".

But I don't think religions will "save" or "destroy" the world, stupid people will destroy the world all on their own.

joe1776 · Jun 1, 2019

Ponder This said:
...When we consider that religion is the basis of a common bond among people. It seems that World Peace hinges upon religion. Religion will either Save the World or it will Destroy It.

Thoughts?

I'm coming in late and haven't read all the posts, so maybe this point has been made previously.

Humanity is making moral progress and religion has nothing to do with it. Conscience (our moral intuition) is moving us toward equality. Moral wrongness can be felt.

Legal slavery was abolished. Women and homosexuals are gaining equality. These advances happen because inequality feels wrong. You won't find slavery or the inequality of women and homosexuals condemned in the old texts that people consider sacred.

Trailblazer · Jun 1, 2019

joe1776 said:
Humanity is making moral progress and religion has nothing to do with it. Conscience (our moral intuition) is moving us toward equality. Moral wrongness can be felt.

Legal slavery was abolished. Women and homosexuals are gaining equality. These advances happen because inequality feels wrong. You won't find slavery or the inequality of women and homosexuals condemned in the old texts that people consider sacred.

These advances happen because a new religion has come to town, even if people are unaware of its presence.
The Holy Spirit has been released into the world once again, and it is affecting ALL of humanity.

The Unconscious Impact of a New Religion

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

CG Didymus · Jun 1, 2019

Trailblazer said:
That is not completely true, because in the very early days of Christianity, before the Council of Nicaea sealed the deal on all the false doctrines of the church, there was a form of Christianity that was “the truth.”

And what do you know about this early form of Christianity that was "the truth"? What did they believe? Who were they? What happened to them? Were the apostles, including Paul, part of this? And, what writings did they use and which did they reject?

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