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Free will, determinism and absolute knowledge.

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
All that I mean by illusion here is the sense that the self experiences itself as the source of its desires when in fact It may be a passive observer of neural processes outside of consciousness that then deliver a message of what the self should want.

This seems to me to be the case.
That is the description of the illusion that I am coming to understand it to be and the description I have been trying to use, but maybe not so well as you have here.



We're liable for them, just like we're liable for the check after dinner. Fault need not enter into the formula. If somebody behaves violently, for example, they have to be dealt with like a tiger loose in the streets. We don't even think in terms of fault with the tiger. Still, we must address the problem even if we hold its source harmless.
Good points. We have responsibility in the context of what may be an illusion, but given we have no other means to discern reality, we must shoulder that responsibility.



Yes. Why not? If your car swerves into a person or building due to a blown tire that could not have been anticipated, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. Or your kid needs braces. Not your fault, but it is your responsibility.
Well put. I think I will find these as useful examples to refer back to.



You have no choice. You're compelled to live in the theater of your consciousness, which we have learned will vary according to our actions among other things. We have learned that action A1 results in an desired outcome more than action A2. Now we learn that we may be passive observers to all of this choosing, mistaking our conscious self for the author of the choice. Nothing changes. The rules of experience remain the same.
That may be the answer to a very important question that arises from all of this. If we have no free will, what is the point of passion for anything? It may be this simple and I will have to accept that. That has its own sort of comfort associated with it. Regardless of choosing the best position on free will, the universe will remain the same.



Determinism means that the result was fully caused and in principle predictable, although in practice, the process may be to difficult to model and calculate the outcome[/QUOTE]That may be a better way to have qualified predictability in my responses to
Skwim. In principle predictable with practical difficulties in execution.


Or is he?



Punishment, it seems to me, is a religious concept - the idea that you have earned suffering and therefore should suffer even if it is to the benefit of nobody. What is the concept of hell if not gratuitous suffering of zero value except perhaps to sadists.

Perhaps we should remove the concept of punishment from the equation. We incarcerate violent criminals not to punish them after the fact, but to remove a danger from the streets to serve as a disincentive to others not to be violent, which is a little different from punishing as retribution, and if possible, to rehabilitate the offender..



Are you certain that neurons didn't generate your will deterministically and reveal it to you? Wouldn't that feel the same?
I will leave the remainder with those to whom the points are directed, though, I would add that I think punishment has a selfish motivation as well. For the one harmed, there is a desire to see the harmer recognized by being punished for the harm done. In making this observation, I am doing so without casting judgement. I have been involved in situations where I wanted my pound of flesh to feel better, failing that, I harbored feelings of injustice, since the 'crime' was not recognized as such to warrant the punishment I felt it deserved. Sometimes you have to let go of and stop living in the resonance loop.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Logic and evidence are very corrosive of religious belief. Are you ready too take the risk?

Ciao

- viole
I have been living with it for 43 years since the first adults began to fail at answering my growing list of questions.

If there is no evidence to believe God exists, there is also no evidence to believe God does not exist. I recognize this compartmentalizes a religious belief, but that would be nothing new and I am breaking no ground by taking that position.

I do not see that a belief based on faith is incompatible with understanding of the physical world based on evidence and logic. The only proviso is that one cannot turn to questions reliant on evidence and logic and use answers based on subjective belief.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
That may be the answer to a very important question that arises from all of this. If we have no free will, what is the point of passion for anything? It may be this simple and I will have to accept that. That has its own sort of comfort associated with it. Regardless of choosing the best position on free will, the universe will remain the same.

Isn't the passion an end in itself ?
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Nope. But a believer in God X, should first try to establish the evidence for God X.

For instance, why do Christians spend so much time trying to prove a general God, when all they have to do is to show the evidence they have to justify their very particular brand of faith?

I mean, a Christian that goes mad about the Kalam argument is a Christian that has no evidence about His own brand of God (example Jesus doing magic things), and fall back into more neutral arguments. But why do they do that? It reads as a self defeating statement about their particular faith. Obviously, the same applies to every other specific faith.

Ciao
- viole
From my position, I see that proving God is a waste of time and unnecessary. It is entirely based on faith. You may consider that an illusion, but given the nature of the posts on this thread, we all may be living an illusion anyway.

From my view, If I choose to do that, I can only offer my personal story and an attempt to persuade another to believe as I do. If they choose not to, I have done what I am allowed to do within the boundaries of recognized rights. This does not make me a superior person for my choice and others inferior for theirs. In fact, it is among the atheists and agnostics, I find the predominance of rational, objective thinking that I have come to rely on as counsel in reviewing, revising or rejecting my own views. Subjective views are difficult to use as evidence for anything other than that a particular person has this particular view.

I like this place to discuss, since one of the rules precludes the persistence of proselytizing.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
The problem when we discuss free will is that there are least two different ways to define free will and they are extremely similar with one glaring difference that is really important.

To avoid further confusion, I would like you ask you one question that might make it clearer to me: If my entire life was merely a string of irresistible urges/desires and nothing more, and all of my actions and choices were determined by this string ( which means that if you could know all there is to know about this string you could know exactly what I would choose at any given moment ), would you say that by acting in accordance with my irresistible urges ( which is a given since I can't help but do it because it is literally impossible for me to do anything else, in a sense I am saying I am similar to a machine programmed to behave in a given way ) I am acting in accordance with my free will ? Would a conscious machine have free will ?
If you are asking me, based on what you have written, whether that is the case then yes.

But that is not what I believe. My best guess is that we have free will with limits. so I don't think we can predict all actions or choices that a human makes, but in certain cases we can.

If a machine is truly conscious, I see no reason why it shouldn't be able to have a free will or some sort of free will. But I think it depends on whether it can be said to have true feelings as well, so it might be a different form of free will than that of a biologic creature. Again im not sure.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Isn't the passion an end in itself ?
Passion can be. The passion to learn is a noble ends in my opinion. You may be onto something with that idea. Even in a deterministic universe, there exists discoveries to pursue. That alone may be enough to sustain a curious hominoid.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
If you are asking me, based on what you have written, whether that is the case then yes.

Okay, I know more or less where you stand now.

But that is not what I believe. My best guess is that we have free will with limits. so I don't think we can predict all actions or choices that a human makes, but in certain cases we can.

When you say that we can't predict human choices, do you mean even in principle ? If so, are you talking strictly about random choices ? Can you come up with an example that would be unpredictable ?

If a machine is truly conscious, I see no reason why it shouldn't be able to have a free will or some sort of free will. But I think it depends on whether it can be said to have true feelings as well, so it might be a different form of free will than that of a biologic creature. Again im not sure.

Okay!
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
That is the answer I have Now, I must determine if that holds up.

Is it a lack of evidence or not looking at the right evidence? Is not choosing also evidence? Is it enough evidence to show that free will is in operation?

As always, I learn something from you. Tell your husband that envy of him is international.


How the choice arrived at doesnt matter. The rejected option doesnt matter. The fact the choice was made freely is evidence of free will.

I will tell Paul no such thing, he'll never get his head through doorways ;-)
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
When you say that we can't predict human choices, do you mean even in principle ? If so, are you talking strictly about random choices ? Can you come up with an example that would be unpredictable ?
Random choices like the example (A) or (A) or none of them that i made earlier, I don't think it would be possible to predict what you chose. Another is altruistic behavior, Im not sure we would be able to predict when someone would react on it or not. As im not sure it follows a logic pattern.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Random choices like the example (A) or (A) or none of them that i made earlier, I don't think it would be possible to predict what you chose. Another is altruistic behavior, Im not sure we would be able to predict when someone would react on it or not. As im not sure it follows a logic pattern.

Fair enough.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
How the choice arrived at doesnt matter. The rejected option doesnt matter. The fact the choice was made freely is evidence of free will.
I will keep that all in mind as I continue my search. Having held that view for so long myself, I am trying to remain objective and not dismiss it for the next latest thing. It has the simplicity of a good solid answer. If I find out more, it will be on this thread.

I will tell Paul no such thing, he'll never get his head through doorways ;-)
I cannot believe that you would be with someone that was not smart enough to know and wise enough not to make a big deal out of that success.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Between you and viole, I am faced with a crash course review of physics just to understand the points you are making, let alone, even begin to address them if that is possible.
Brain research entered the modern era with the EEG, and has really accelerated since the 1990s when new brain-scan tools and methods became available. The constant question is, how does it work? Which leads to further questions ─ what is a neuron? What part of the brain does what? , and how do its groups of neurons interact with each other and other groups? And, of course, how come?

So with free will, by what process does the brain perceive questions and decide them? Here's an article on decision-making. But since it all boils down to the stimulation of neurons, and their complex interactions to derive a collective response, we're looking at decision-making as complex interacting chains of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect in the brain.

And those chains will be determined in-house ie by the brain's own procedures, unless something external intervenes ─ a blow to the head, the effect of a drug, infection, and so on, can displace in part the orderly procedures of the brain, though the result will still be derived by chains of cause+effect, just different ones. (That effect isn't limited to decision-making, of course.)

The only alternative to cause+effect in physics is quantum randomness. This is the best short article I can find in a rapid search,

Such events may or may not be able to interfere with quantum randomness with chains of cause+effect in brains. As far as I'm aware, we don't presently know whether that happens, or whether, if it happens, it can produce significant variations to what would otherwise result. But because randomness is the only alternative to cause+effect, it gets mentioned.
I recall watching a program hosted by the physicist Brian Greene where he discussed our perception of physical reality and how our perception is a function of electromagnetism viewed on the human scale. I cannot go into detail for reasons I have already stated regarding my trivial understanding of the concepts, but I get the impression that the responses I am getting relate in some way to Greene's descriptions.
I don't know the program. He may have been discussing the role of bioelectricity in the communication between neurons, or in the brain generally (eg the waves the EEG picks up). But that's just a guess.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
As a Christian, a scientist, and a curious human, I am interested in these topics, but recent attempts to learn more about determinism have been decidedly rebuffed, but I would like to know more.

I have read arguments for and against free will. All I can say with any confidence is that I do not really know if we have it, but we appear to have it. Set me straight or show me its there.

From the perspective of a scientist, I cannot know anything absolutely, and scientific conclusions are always contingent on the discovery of new information. Is there any objective means to know something absolutely?

I put this in general religion, but if there is a better place besides file 13, please move it appropriately.

Is Free Will defined in terms of a lack of impediment? Why should I consider a person as lacking Free Will because when he jumps out the window he falls instead of flying through the air?

If determinism means the inability to change the past, why should I consider that as incompatible with Free Will?
If determinism means that all events are determined completely by pre-existing causes, then why is the Will regarded as not pre-existing?

As to perfect knowledge insuring unerring knowledge of the future... well, that's an interesting theory. Supposing it were true, what does it really have to do with anything?

On the other hand, is there a tangible difference between a person who is a slave to someone and a person who is not a slave to anyone? If not, then in what way are freemen being controlled by other people 'against their will'?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is Free Will defined in terms of a lack of impediment? Why should I consider a person as lacking Free Will because when he jumps out the window he falls instead of flying through the air?
One of the issues discussed here is this:

How does the brain make decisions?

Neurology tells us it does so by the interaction of complex chains of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect (whether or not affected by quantum randomness at any point).

That being so, is there in the brain anything distinct from that, called 'the will', which can override it?

If there is, and it can, what is 'the will' and by what process does 'the will' make decisions?

If there is not, then the brain's processes of decision-making are either determined, or largely determined and slightly random.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Materialism as the idea that only that which is matter and energy and can be observed is real? The brain is a material object that would fit into that rudimentary definition if I am understanding you correctly. The mind or consciousness? I do not know. An emergent property of a specific type of matter.

I'm not a materialist, but at a basic level at least, the reduction of everything to matter and physical processes has an implication in terms of free will. A physical process is commonly thought of as having a determinable effect in a controlled circumstance. Whilst the nature of reality is so complex and nuanced that we 'appear' to have free will, it seems unlikely (if materialist viewpoints are correct).
 
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