Salvation from what?

SPLogan said:

I would add that the specific thing people are saved from is God's wrath. In other words, God saves people from His own divine justice by taking credit for their sin and accepting sin's just punishment upon Himself in Christ.
In essence, "sin" is all forms of rebellion from God.

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I don't think we need to be saved from anything except ourselves and the religious fundamentalists. If I need to be saved from Gods wrath, just what is he angry at me for? He created me and then decides he doesn't like the creation so he gets mad at the creation? Where is the justice in that--divine or otherwise? Then he dies for all of his creation only to lose in the end because not everyone will accept his supposed sacrifice..thus satan wins--yet again just as he did when god set man up in the garden of eden after he made them flawless and supposedly walked in communion with them. He must have been insecure to say to himself 'hmmm I wonder if they REALLY REALLY love me....I better set these two trees up to test them and since I am all-knowing I know they will fail. I will rectify that later when I die for them" :sarcastic

No, we only need to be saved from religious radicals. They're tearing up the humanity of the world and always have been.

Booko said:

Like the idea that works done for the wrong reason (in the wrong spirit) are not worth anything as far as spiritual growth or salvation goes?

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That is correct.

Godlike said:

My question is, according to your beliefs, what is it that you are supposed to be saved from?

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For Latter-day Saints, it's probably more salvation from the permanence of death more than anything else.

Is salvation, as an Atheist might have it, merely religions offer to solve a problem of its own making?

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Not to me, but I can understand why they'd see it that way.

Is it from Hell, or the encyclical rounds of Rebirth? Or both?

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Neither.

Please, as openly and concisely as possible, express your view of what Salvation means and whether or not it has any intrinsic value or worth in your life and the life of other human beings.

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To me, there is a significant difference between "salvation" and "exaltation." I believe that virtually every person who has ever lived will be resurrected. That is salvation in its most basic form -- salvation from the grave. Then there is salvation from "Hell" or eternal suffering, which I don't see as a particularly major issue anyway because I believe that the numbers of people who will meet with that eventual end are infintisimally small. I believe that the vast majority will go to Heaven and receive at least a portion of the glory God has in store for them. To me, that's also salvation. Finally, I believe in the "fullness of salvation" or "Exaltation," which blessing will be granted to the most faithful of God's children. These individuals will be given the opportunity to attain their full potential -- becoming godlike -- in the eternities to come. That is the kind of salvation my Church encourages all to strive for.

recluse said:

I don't think we need to be saved from anything except ourselves and the religious fundamentalists. If I need to be saved from Gods wrath, just what is he angry at me for? He created me and then decides he doesn't like the creation so he gets mad at the creation?

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I definitely agree that we need to be saved from ourselves. I also agree that we need to be saved from fundamentalists. By the term's original, historic meaning, I am a "fundamentalist" (and I do contribute to the World's problems).

I cannot tell you specifically what God is angry at you for. Ask yourself that question. I could tell you what He is angry at me for (but I'd rather not do that here).
God gave mankind (created in His image) freedom because loves His us. We tend to pervert our freedom and selfishly espouse our own autonomy. That is offensive to the Creator because we represent His image on Earth. People sin because they have a sinful nature.

These words will be gobblydegook to you unless God changes your heart supernaturally though. I did not become a Christian because I was convinced of it's truth through arguments. God saved me by changing my heart from its fallen, evil, arrogant nature. That is not to say that I am no longer selfish, arrogant, presumptuous, and evil. I have a transformed, repentant heart and I am increasingly aware of how much I offend God and need His saving grace constantly.

I believe that when one sincerely repents to God of his/her Pride and submits their life to Him and His saving grace, He transforms their heart. It makes absolutly no difference how many "skeletons are in the closet" because God is far greater than all of one's past failures, no matter how humongous they are.

Also, being a Christian DOES NOT mean that you must send any of your money to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or any guys like that. You'd be far better off giving it to people who are sick, hungry, and homeless.

Godlike said:

To achive ones Salvation, one must tread a particular path towards God, Enlightenment or whatever.
My question is, according to your beliefs, what is it that you are supposed to be saved from?

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Greetings Godlike. My thoughts agree with your opening statement about Salvation and Enlightenment and are basically in agreement with Booko's original post too.

About your second question, imo what primarily we need saving from and what is answered in Enlightenment are limited meaning, finitude, and separation from God. Enlightement transcends finitude and gives ultimate meaning through realization of oneness with God and Eternal life. My posting below on Enlightenment gives positive characteristics that indicate other concerns that are overcome.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39802&page=3

This is my opinion, but I do have the utmost respect for many of the other posts which seem right for others who are under different conditions.

Wow, Gl - you're getting a lot of insighful answers here! Frubals for making us think about this question on our own basic levels

Godlike said:

My question is, according to your beliefs, what is it that you are supposed to be saved from?

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Saved from separation from God.
Now that I've come to 'know' Him, being separated from God is the worst thing that could happen to me
With Him, I have learned that no matter what is or what happens, I have a Peace that passes all understanding

Saved from fear of death by recognizing life eternal.

SPLogan said:

I cannot tell you specifically what God is angry at you for. Ask yourself that question. I could tell you what He is angry at me for (but I'd rather not do that here).
God gave mankind (created in His image) freedom because loves His us. We tend to pervert our freedom and selfishly espouse our own autonomy. That is offensive to the Creator because we represent His image on Earth. People sin because they have a sinful nature.

These words will be gobblydegook to you unless God changes your heart supernaturally though. I did not become a Christian because I was convinced of it's truth through arguments. God saved me by changing my heart from its fallen, evil, arrogant nature. That is not to say that I am no longer selfish, arrogant, presumptuous, and evil. I have a transformed, repentant heart and I am increasingly aware of how much I offend God and need His saving grace constantly.

I believe that when i sincerely repent to God of Pride and submit my life to Him and His saving grace, He transforms my heart. It makes absolutly no difference how man "Skeletons are in my closet" because I believe God is far that all of my past failures, no matter how humongous they are

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thank you for your response splogan. Why did god save your heart and not mine? Is He a respecter of persons or not? also, if he loved man so much--and genesis says that he does and walked in harmony with adam--then why did he set him up just to find out if he reaaaally loved him? dont you see how weird that is? I think its myth and the only ones who need saving are the people who have been brainwashed by that dogma. You have a god who loves us so much, but is willing to burn creation in the oven because we are supposed to forgive our very enemies -- but apparantly he can't.

Godlike said:

Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism: all the worlds major religions expressly proclaim the need for human beings to be saved. To achive ones Salvation, one must tread a particular path towards God, Enlightenment or whatever.

My question is, according to your beliefs, what is it that you are supposed to be saved from?

Is salvation, as an Atheist might have it, merely religions offer to solve a problem of its own making?

Is it from Hell, or the encyclical rounds of Rebirth? Or both?

Please, as openly and concisely as possible, express your view of what Salvation means and whether or not it has any intrinsic value or worth in your life and the life of other human beings.

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Buddhism does not "expressly proclaim" that human beings need to be saved. Rather it suggests that we understand a teaching. "Save" assumes a savior. If the savior is defined as 'ourselves", this seems areligious.

lunamoth said:

Saved from fear of death by recognizing life eternal.

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When I was an atheist, I actually had no fear of death.... it was just a matter of not living any more. Dust to dust and all that.

Now that I'm a Christian, I see my own death as something to look forward to.... don't get me wrong, though - I don't mean I'm looking to kak myself to get there quicker, but it's more a selfish thing I guess - I will be removed from the suffering and heartache and loneliness and all the pain this world has shown and given me. Instead, there is the Hope of being with a 'Heavenly Father' who loves me completely and unconditionally and has promised never to leave me..

So I guess what I'm blabbing on about is that it's not so much a release from fear of something for me, but a promise of eternal .... uh .... Oneness?? .... with God.

recluse said:

...You have a god who loves us so much, but is willing to burn creation in the oven...

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I can't speak for the other guys, but the God I believe in as a Christian doesn't do the actual burning. I do believe that Salvation through Him does keep one from entering said oven, however

Thank you, snowbear.

But God created hell and he created human beings. He is supposedly omniscient, omnipresent [everywhere] etc, and yet the christian bible says that hell is separation from him. How can you be seperate from a deity who is everywhere?

And if he doesn't put people in hell then what is that verse in St Matthew about when Jesus is giving a parable and says that god will say to the 'wicked'--depart from me you who are CURSED and enter everlasting hell prepared from the beginning for the devil and his angels.
That's not only unkind but today we would refer to someone like that as Hitler....because it's also unfair as god DOES do the burning. revelation chapter 14 bears this out as well. You have said that god doesn't put anyone in 'said oven' but the bible speaks differently about it. I believe people create the bible in their image and also gods.
"You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

-Anne Lamott

recluse said:

omnipresent [everywhere]

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Where does the Bible say this?

Yes, He knows everything we do and think. But He also gave us free will.... we get to reject Him or accept Him. If He offers to let us in His presence, we get to choose to reject the offer. We get to choose to be separate from Him.

Yes, God likely made the oven. People put themselves in it by their sin, But God also made a way out of it.

recluse said:

And if he doesn't put people in hell then what is that verse in St Matthew about when Jesus is giving a parable and says that god will say to the 'wicked'--depart from me you who are CURSED and enter everlasting hell prepared from the beginning for the devil and his angels.

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Just like it says - those who rejected Him are to GO there. He's doing (I believe) His part to give us every chance to to accept Him. He's also telling us in plain language where we go if we reject Him.

The key is though.... He desires that ALL are saved (none should perish).... but again, He's not going to force us to accept Him.... we get to make the choice to accept the gift of salvation or not.

I agree with the OP to some extent. There are several religions which seem, in a rather general way, to share in the notion that normal human nature is somehow flawed or lacking in some crucial thing, and that some remedy for that flaw or lack is available through religion.

But having said that, the religions seem to differ quite radically in what they believe that flaw or lack to be, as well as in what they believe the remedy for it is.

Victor said:

Even if you are able to, it could be meanigless to God. Salvation is not just something we are or not able to do, but also whether our works mean anything to God. How does this apply to your faith?

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the very mechanism of Judaism are Mitzvot, Commandments. He gave the jewish people 613 of them, surely, they mean something.

but if the question is, can i be saved through my works, i don't believe i have anything to be saved from.

For the Christian, salvation means salvation from death, which is our separation from the Source of life -- which is God. In salvation, humanity has been reconciled to God, so "hell" has lost all of its meaning for us.

jewscout said:

the very mechanism of Judaism are Mitzvot, Commandments. He gave the jewish people 613 of them, surely, they mean something.

but if the question is, can i be saved through my works, i don't believe i have anything to be saved from.

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I see. I suppose our disagreement will be in that I believe man is essentially incapable of being right with God, without God’s mercy and grace.

Victor said:

I see. I suppose our disagreement will be in that I believe man is essentially incapable of being right with God, without God’s mercy and grace.

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i agree...that is one place where judaism and christianity has split.

Snowbear said:

Where does the Bible say this?
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

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hello again snowbear,
regarding the above--and all of your last post, why can't God just be FORGIVING like he asks us to be? Just to say a sinner's prayer won't make me any different than you in some sense of soul freedom. I said it and lived by it for years. I no longer do and my life had not changed one bit. So many places in the bible God and Jesus are a "do as I say not as I do" kind of triune. "forgive your enemies. pray for those who persecute you. forgive 70x7, etc." but he cant and won't. It reeks of fish to me. There's something fishy about it all.

And if he created hell for the devil and his angels, why does the devil roam the earth like a roaring lion? why would God wait until just the right moment....you get the idea. He's been on hiatus for over 2000 years and still demands our faith. Now, the 622 people who SAW him have it easy. But everyone else has to have the 'old' faith. Again, he's a respecter of persons and yet he says he's not according to whoever wrote the bible.

Also, omnipresent and all knowing, etc. is taught throughout the bible though I don't have one handy right now. My main point is that the only kind of salvation that society needs is freedom from religious beliefs. Islam today is where christianity was 1000-1500 years ago. Let's hope we survive them, too. They have the same kind of 'loving God that Christianity does. One who loves but never shows himself. If creation is showing God--well my earthly dad could have left me and my mom and left his jacket hanging somewhere on a hook for me to know that he exists. That doesn't make him a good father. What kind of father would ignore his kids, test them, and then wait to see whether he should destroy them or not based on second and third hand hearsay i.e. the bible which was written by MEN? "God told me to tell you...." and we're still buying this crap.

Save me from that. Anyone...save me from all those lies.

Snowbear said:

When I was an atheist, I actually had no fear of death.... it was just a matter of not living any more. Dust to dust and all that.

Now that I'm a Christian, I see my own death as something to look forward to.... don't get me wrong, though - I don't mean I'm looking to kak myself to get there quicker, but it's more a selfish thing I guess - I will be removed from the suffering and heartache and loneliness and all the pain this world has shown and given me. Instead, there is the Hope of being with a 'Heavenly Father' who loves me completely and unconditionally and has promised never to leave me..

So I guess what I'm blabbing on about is that it's not so much a release from fear of something for me, but a promise of eternal .... uh .... Oneness?? .... with God.

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Cool! Didn't know you were an atheist before. So was I, and my reaction to death was the same you had. For some odd reason, many theists can't understand it, but it's true all the same.

And like you, I now find death as more of an opportunity, not something to be feared. "I have made death a messenger of joy to thee -- wherefore dost thou grieve?"

Frankly, I think the notion that I might have Eternity to ask a bunch of questions and meet those who come before and after me, and reconnect with those I knew in this life, all without the usual veils we have that prevent our understanding, well that sounds like a nice way to spend Eternity.

Oh yeah...and there's that little bit there about growing closer to God too.