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Liars paradox. Why does it exist in the NT.

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Thomas narrative about the ressurection is written in paradoxical form. "I don't trust eye witnesses, trust me for I am an eye witness".

Why exactly is that written in that form? Why is that question not raised when read?

The paradox is much older in Greek culture than Christianity yet here it is in a religious text. Generally the paradox is not read religiously but philosophically "all Cretans are liars and I am a Cretan."

Just like philosophy the paradox is read in different ways. We can see the spectrum of responses in a variety of posts and that phenomena is interesting and relevant to this paradox and the writers of the text. Why?

Like Buddhism much of the story is written as a window for the teacher to see into the student as the student is looking out.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
The Thomas narrative about the ressurection is written in paradoxical form. "I don't trust eye witnesses, trust me for I am an eye witness".

Why exactly is that written in that form? Why is that question not raised when read?

The paradox is much older in Greek culture than Christianity yet here it is in a religious text. Generally the paradox is not read religiously but philosophically "all Cretans are liars and I am a Cretan."

Just like philosophy the paradox is read in different ways. We can see the spectrum of responses in a variety of posts and that phenomena is interesting and relevant to this paradox and the writers of the text. Why?

Like Buddhism much of the story is written as a window for the teacher to see into the student as the student is looking out.
I noticed long ago that many people are drawn to the mysterious and incomprehensible. It's as if they have a rule built into their reasoning process that "If it's incomprehensible or nearly so, it must therefore be profound." The reverse is probably also true for them: "If it's stated plainly and simply, it must be of little value."

Your paradox might be the work of a writer who wrote for those readers.
 
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David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I noticed long ago that many people are drawn to the mysterious and incomprehensible. It's as if they have a rule built into their reasoning process that "If it's incomprehensible or nearly so, it must therefore be profound." The reverse is probably also true: "If it's stated plainly and simply, it must be of little value."

Your paradox might be an example of that.
It's generally unseen like invisible unseen. It was a question I asked myself as soon as it was read and explained by a professor. He had no idea that it was a paradox.

I didn't know at the time that it was a famous paradox . I read it unbiased being new to the thing called Christianity. I was baffled by it and daydreamed the remainder of the class about it. What was I experiencing?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
It's generally unseen like invisible unseen. It was a question I asked myself as soon as it was read and explained by a professor. He had no idea that it was a paradox.

I didn't know at the time that it was a famous paradox . I read it unbiased being new to the thing called Christianity. I was baffled by it and daydreamed the remainder of the class about it. What was I experiencing?
I,m a virgin (I've never read that line before). I don't see a paradox. I see a contradiction.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I,m a virgin (I've never read that line before). I don't see a paradox. I see a contradiction.
What is a paradox radically different from a contradiction? And if it exists in language can it be resolved linguistically? Now we can pretend yes by creating rules and following the rules. Not unlike orthodoxy.
The problem is, does nature follow those rules do they exist in nature? Uh no they do not therefore the rules we create have nothing to do with nature at all but are simplistic structures we created In regards to noises we create about ourselves and the world around us. It's virtual has hell and it's normal. Thus normal dictates even as normal asks "what is normal?'.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
What is a paradox radically different from a contradiction? And if it exists in language can it be resolved linguistically? Now we can pretend yes by creating rules and following the rules. Not unlike orthodoxy.
The problem is, does nature follow those rules do they exist in nature? Uh no they do not therefore the rules we create have nothing to do with nature at all but are simplistic structures we created In regards to noises we create about ourselves and the world around us. It's virtual has hell and it's normal. Thus normal dictates even as normal asks "what is normal?'.
I'm defining a paradox as a statement which, at first, seems like a contradiction but, when further explained, actually isn't.

Now, let's suppose that the quote " "I don't trust eye witnesses, trust me for I am an eye witness".came from Field and Stream, the monthly magazine with no further explanation. Would we then try to make sense of it? I don't think so. I think we'd assume it was a contradiction.

My mind isn't trying to make sense of that statement because I don't regard the source as an authority on Truth. If I did, I'm sure my mind could make sense of it one way or another. Only then would I regard the statement as a paradox.
 

KelseyR

The eternal optimist!
It highly resembles the sarcasm a disbeliever might use. Maybe he was mad about being stuck in a poor career choice.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The Thomas narrative about the ressurection is written in paradoxical form. "I don't trust eye witnesses, trust me for I am an eye witness".

Why exactly is that written in that form? Why is that question not raised when read?

The paradox is much older in Greek culture than Christianity yet here it is in a religious text. Generally the paradox is not read religiously but philosophically "all Cretans are liars and I am a Cretan."

Just like philosophy the paradox is read in different ways. We can see the spectrum of responses in a variety of posts and that phenomena is interesting and relevant to this paradox and the writers of the text. Why?

Like Buddhism much of the story is written as a window for the teacher to see into the student as the student is looking out.
FYI, the so-called 'Gospel of Thomas' is not part of the Greek Scriptures, aka the NT. It's not in the Bible Canon.
 

dingdao

The eternal Tao cannot be told - Tao Te Ching
I don't see it as a paradxox
Let me reframe it:
I never trusted people who said they saw it, but I saw it for myself.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
The Thomas narrative about the ressurection is written in paradoxical form. "I don't trust eye witnesses, trust me for I am an eye witness".

Where did you read the version of "the Thomas narrative" that you're referring to?

Here's the only version that I know of, from (the Bible) John 20:24-28:

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

No paradox there, that I can see.

Why exactly is that written in that form?

Because the form that you claim Thomas' statement takes is not the claim, in John 20, that Thomas' claim takes.
  1. John 20:19 - "So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
  2. John 20:20 - "And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord."
  3. John 20:24 - "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came."
  4. John 20:25 - " So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
  5. John 20:26 - "After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” "
  6. John 20:27 - "Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
  7. John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
There is a substantial difference between
  • your "paradoxical form": "I don't trust eye witnesses, trust me for I am an eye witness" and
  • the biblical account,
    • In which Thomas was told, one day, 'Jesus is alive' by folks who claimed to have seen a resurrected Jesus; and
    • Thomas' refusal to believe that Jesus had been raised from the dead, even though the ones who told Thomas that Jesus was alive were fellow followers of Jesus;
    • Then eight days later, Thomas sees Jesus personally and says: "WTF??? Guess I was wrong; now I'm an eyewitness."
Why is that question not raised when read?

'Cause you got your narrative from "fake" news, maybe?

The paradox is much older in Greek culture than Christianity yet here it is in a religious text. Generally the paradox is not read religiously but philosophically "all Cretans are liars and I am a Cretan."

Ignorance is bliss. You know who started the myth that the Cretan liar paradox had an ancient Greek origin? Paul of Tarsus:
  • Paul's sermon on the Hill of Ares (a.k.a. Areopagus) and in his letter to Titus, in each of which he displays his familiarity with Epimenides the Cretan
    • Epimenides - author of a poem called "Cretica"
      • In the poem, Minos addresses Zeus thus:

        Τύμβον ἐτεκτήναντο σέθεν, κύδιστε μέγιστε,
        Κρῆτες, ἀεὶ ψευδεῖς, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.
        Ἀλλὰ σὺ γ᾽ οὐ θνῇσκεις, ἕστηκας γὰρ ζοὸς αίεί,
        Ἐν γὰρ σοὶ ζῶμεν καὶ κινύμεθ᾽ ἠδὲ καὶ ἐσμέν.

        Translation:
        They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one,
        Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies.
        But you are not dead: you live and abide forever,
        For in you we live and move and have our being.

        The "lie" of the Cretans is that Zeus was mortal; Epimenides considered Zeus immortal.
    • Acts 17, Paul's sermon: "24 - The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children."
    • Titus 1:12, "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
  • The phrase "Cretans, always liars" was quoted by the poet Callimachus in his Hymn to Zeus, with the same theological intent as Epimenides:

    O Zeus, some say that thou wert born on the hills of Ida;
    Others, O Zeus, say in Arcadia;
    Did these or those, O Father lie? -- “Cretans are ever liars.”
    Yea, a tomb, O Lord, for thee the Cretans builded;
    But thou didst not die, for thou art for ever.
  • From St. Paul to St. Jerome, who translated the Bible from Greek into Latin, and from St. Jerome into the Medieval Church Scholastics, and from there into Philosophy.

Because there is no end to knuckleheads.
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
The Thomas narrative about the ressurection is written in paradoxical form. "I don't trust eye witnesses, trust me for I am an eye witness".

Why exactly is that written in that form? Why is that question not raised when read?

Could you be a little more specific? Where/in what writing do we find a "Thomas narrative about the ressurection"?

Are you talking about the story involving Thomas in the gospel of John? If so, the gospel is supposed to be a presentation from John's point of view. What Thomas believes or doesn't believe is kind of a moot point.

Are you talking about the Gospel of Thomas? If so, there is no resurrection story and this book isn't considered canonical anyway. Same thing for the Acts of Thomas.

Just asking for clarification.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Could you be a little more specific? Where/in what writing do we find a "Thomas narrative about the ressurection"?

Are you talking about the story involving Thomas in the gospel of John? If so, the gospel is supposed to be a presentation from John's point of view. What Thomas believes or doesn't believe is kind of a moot point.

Are you talking about the Gospel of Thomas? If so, there is no resurrection story and this book isn't considered canonical anyway. Same thing for the Acts of Thomas.

Just asking for clarification.
Yes in john.

You have to answer how you understand the resurrection first. That determines how that section is read out. Not the inverse
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It highly resembles the sarcasm a disbeliever might use. Maybe he was mad about being stuck in a poor career choice.
believe disbelieve be agnostic about the sun rising. it's all irrelevant to nature and thus it's all rather worthless inculturated fantasy.
.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
It's generally unseen like invisible unseen. It was a question I asked myself as soon as it was read and explained by a professor. He had no idea that it was a paradox.

I didn't know at the time that it was a famous paradox . I read it unbiased being new to the thing called Christianity. I was baffled by it and daydreamed the remainder of the class about it. What was I experiencing?

The Resurrection: Influence on the Church in the First Decades
www.crivoice.org/resurrection.html
Whereas Jewish thought anticipated a future resurrection, early Christianity affirmed that in Christ the resurrection has become a present reality. In contrast to Jewish and Christian ideas of resurrection, Greek philosophers from the time of Plato thought in terms of immortality of the soul.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I noticed long ago that many people are drawn to the mysterious and incomprehensible. It's as if they have a rule built into their reasoning process that "If it's incomprehensible or nearly so, it must therefore be profound." The reverse is probably also true for them: "If it's stated plainly and simply, it must be of little value."

Your paradox might be the work of a writer who wrote for those readers.
Yes. We are drawn to all kinds of magical kinds of thinking in many many forms and religion is not alone in that. It's normal.

That section of the text is rather interesting since one has to ask would the character Thomas in reading the story Thomas be a believer based on his reading? The answer is no based on the text.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Resurrection: Influence on the Church in the First Decades
www.crivoice.org/resurrection.html
Whereas Jewish thought anticipated a future resurrection, early Christianity affirmed that in Christ the resurrection has become a present reality. In contrast to Jewish and Christian ideas of resurrection, Greek philosophers from the time of Plato thought in terms of immortality of the soul.
Yes I think we suddenly get into a really interesting area. You have pointed out correctly the issue. It's not the text itself in that section that determines, it's how the ressurection is understood that determines how that section is read.


Pope Clement the first gives us a window into that thinking in around 80 ad . He gives a sermon about the pheonix. Which BTW it's curious why isn't that the symbol of Christianity? It's the story after all.

I am all about nature, and this entire story is in the landscape. But how we see nature effects how we see this text regardless. Just as how we are taught to see nature effects how we understand ourselves.

I am very very grounded in nature itself, so I am very very ok with the text, I am not ok with the faith. it's badly wrong in a vast majority of instances . But that is normal and that's how life is. We are always both at odds with and in need of.

Heraclitus said "opposites held in tension" and certainly we have that in context to the larger than human world today.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes in john.

You have to answer how you understand the resurrection first. That determines how that section is read out. Not the inverse

None of this has anything to do with the points I raised.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
None of this has anything to do with the points I raised.
Are you a literalist?? If yes, don't bother answering we have zero to discuss since that's fantasy. The text isn't fantasy so it's not literalists writing it it's written for literalists. I would say they aren't stupid but that's a rule vilolation apparently.
 
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