Is The Christian forgiveness for sin, or Atonement real?

whirlingmerc · May 27, 2019

robocop (actually) said:
Raelian response:

I will try for you.....

picture yourself at God's right hand.....yes you can _> If I were a human creator, an Alien, I would be on that planet

God has an interest in blending spirit and physical form
and it seems possible but with results unknown -> OK

the experiment takes hold with Man as a species (Day Six)
but he is a creature like all others
snatch and grab
run and hide
kill whatever he can -> to be fair, Satan gave them weapons and prompted them to kill as evidence of their unworthiness.

and God says....to you....
seek after him
that he not harm himself as he goes running about
that he not dash his head as he stumbles

that makes you a caretaker
to a creature more to flesh than spirit
and you are stuck with the task.....cause God said so

and you.....along with one third of heaven …..refuse to do so -> the one third that doesn't like Humanity

the story I got.....
swords were drawn....brother angel against brother angel
and one third of heaven fell -> There was a lot of political fighting but I think you're flattering yourself... the Aliens wouldn't fight each other physically

the Fallen want you (as a human) dead
two thirds of heaven lost their brothers
They are likely to be disgusted by the situation -> agree

and we (as fellow mortals) are caught in between -> agree

Psalm 34:8 Good and upright is the LORD; therefor He instructs sinner in the way
therefore he instructs sinners in the way.

God is glorified in man's dependence and being dependent on God for mercy is one way that happens. We are so in debt to God for forgiveness we forgive others and are changed.

see
The Liberating Power of Forgiveness

Thief · May 27, 2019

robocop (actually) said:
and you.....along with one third of heaven …..refuse to do so -> Why would you refuse?

your rewrite of my words displays your confusion
and the source of it

placing yourself in a different perspective.....without names is essential
when attempting to understand

you might want to delete your rewrite of my words
and consider....

in heaven you see the earth and the life upon it as less.....than you
and God....wants you to cater after it

and yes....you might refuse

robocop (actually) · May 27, 2019

Thief said:
in heaven you see the earth and the life upon it as less.....than you
and God....wants you to cater after it

and yes....you might refuse

I respect truth and that is truth.

Thief · May 27, 2019

robocop (actually) said:
I respect truth and that is truth.

ok....

and maybe my belief in sin is greatly different than yours

the story I got ...as posted above
is how sin originated

it was not a garden event
and the forbidden fruit was not a test of obedience

but it was an event of consequence

robocop (actually) · May 27, 2019

Thief said:
ok....

and maybe my belief in sin is greatly different than yours

the story I got ...as posted above
is how sin originated

it was not a garden event
and the forbidden fruit was not a test of obedience

but it was an event of consequence

Both 'sin origination' stories are logical, right?

Ellen Brown · May 27, 2019

robocop (actually) said:
The Raelian response

the story I got.....
Let us create Man in our image -> Aliens created men out of their DNA

after that the story varies quite a bit
I go on in this manner.....

Man is fragile...therefore, seek after him that he dash not his foot nor his head -> Man was primitive, so Lucifer, the team of Aliens that did the creation, wanted to help them advance

God's Favored and one third of heaven said ...Nay!
that Man is less than we are
he should be made to serve us! -> The Elohim who were the good guys in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are now the bad guys... the people on the Alien home world were scared of being attacked and wanted slavery.

there's nothing wrong with that logic

but it led to rebellion and fall from grace -> They pardoned Lucifer soon after, so that doesn't matter.

it should be noted ….
Man is a creature that does unto lesser things
and even unto his fellowman

to whom do we bear resemblance...???? -> Satan used this as a tactic to try to destroy humans and it almost worked with Noah's Ark.

I accept some Ralean ideas with great caution. I think that God and all those who represent him are not of this Earth. The shaitan (Muslim spelling) was cast to Earth because he was hostile toward God. The idea that he and Jesus are brothers bothers me but it is verifiable in scripture as distasteful as that is to me.

Ellen Brown · May 27, 2019

whirlingmerc said:
It is

In the Bible god forgives sinners and even shows love to them
In Islam I believe that would not be the claim

Romans 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

see also
God Demonstrates His Love

It would be the case in Islam after sufficient prayer and repentance.

MJFlores · May 28, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
The understanding of forgiveness for sin is all over the place. In most legal systems, "if you do the deed, you do the time". I don't argue with that because of the hopeful deterrent that punishment after a sin is "said" to offer. And, perhaps the subsequent guilt leaves on needing to be punished?

I am aware of a group that, for a time, practiced "blood atonement", paying for one's sin in kind.

In Islam, though I do not know all the details, murder can be forgiven by the victim's family for a price.

In the Bible, once we know we have sinned, and we are contrite, then repentant, it is forgiven.

Though Jesus strongly preaches for forgiveness, even demanding it, most know what it is to have someone hold a grudge against us.

To live a life devoid of offense toward God is the most demanding discipline I can think of.

I heard these things from watching Mormon videos - atonement.
And it is correct that in Islam, they [victim's family] accept blood money as retribution for a love one killed.

Can a church able to forgive sins, if it is not recognized by God?

Will sins be forgiven if the Lord Jesus Christ does not even know the person asking forgiveness?

If someone, who I do not know, approaches me and say
"I'm sorry for everything"
My reaction would be - "Excuse me? Who are you?
I think Jesus would be more blunt than that

Thief · May 28, 2019

robocop (actually) said:
Both 'sin origination' stories are logical, right?

yeah but …..let me be quick to say.....
Day Six was of great length
and is the event called ….evolution

Man as a species....
no names
no garden
no law
and therefore.....no sin

as for Chapter Two....it is NOT a retelling of Chapter One

Adam is a CHOSEN son of God
Eve is a clone.....no navel....not born of woman
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride

the forbidden fruit was a test....but not of obedience

Man needs to be that creature curious....even if he knows death could be a pending consequence

and to this day.....Man is that creature

Katzpur · May 28, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
In the Bible, once we know we have sinned, and we are contrite, then repentant, it is forgiven.

Forgiveness for sins, at least in the New Testament, is contingent upon faith in Jesus Christ's redemptive power (in addition, of course, to repentance).

Click to expand...

Ellen Brown · May 28, 2019

MJFlores said:
I heard these things from watching Mormon videos - atonement.
And it is correct that in Islam, they [victim's family] accept blood money as retribution for a love one killed.

Can a church able to forgive sins, if it is not recognized by God?

View attachment 29443

Will sins be forgiven if the Lord Jesus Christ does not even know the person asking forgiveness?

If someone, who I do not know, approaches me and say
"I'm sorry for everything"
My reaction would be - "Excuse me? Who are you?
I think Jesus would be more blunt than that

Isn't that view a bit harsh? Of course there are groups that practice the vengeful, punishing God, but I am not of that mind set. In my dotage, it seems clear that those around us getting revenge, and the consequences of our actions provide just lots of punishment, even after contriteness and repentance? I would be fearful of God were I one to enjoy the punishment and suffering of a sinner.

Hopefully, not too long until I face God myself armed only with "I tried as hard as I could" in the face of my many failings.

Kenny · May 28, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
I'll have to work on this more. I had thought it to be a loose quote of the Bible...

Mark 11:25 The Passion Translation (TPT)
25 And whenever you stand praying, if you find that you carry something in your heart against another person, release him and forgive him .....

As I see it, as you mentioned, forgiveness is so important. IMV, if you don't you short-circuit your capacity to have an effective spiritual life.

Ellen Brown · May 28, 2019

KenS said:
Mark 11:25 The Passion Translation (TPT)
25 And whenever you stand praying, if you find that you carry something in your heart against another person, release him and forgive him .....

As I see it, as you mentioned, forgiveness is so important. IMV, if you don't you short-circuit your capacity to have an effective spiritual life.

And for some forgiveness is difficult to extend. Some deeds can eventually be forgiven, but can they be forgotten? Is that required?

I was gifted with forgiveness for assaults that occured over 14 years of my youth. It was an indescribable blessing and I knew that if I did not let that go, I would not see heaven. Yet, I know those who have not and likely will not forgive him. The pain they carry must be indescribable. It is for they and God to confront that pain in their own way, and none of my business.

I see it from the Christian point of view, and I see it rather inexpertly from the Muslim point of view. Forgiveness seems imbedded in Christianity, but do Christians actually practice it?

For the Muslim, perhaps forgiveness is in the five prayers a day? If one has never witnessed and understood a Muslim praying, even just once, it is a beautiful thing. The praising of Allah SWT, the asking for forgiveness and guidance are so inspiring and healing. It is doubtful that one can be more humble than when they are on their hands and knees with their forehead on the floor, asking for forgiveness and praising the One Creator.

Yet, our world still seems full of anger and hatred. Is that because we are poor followers of God, or is the tormenter misleading us. God, have mercy on us.

Thief · May 28, 2019

to answer the op title......no
the Christian version of forgiveness is not real

Jesus died for a trumped up charge of insurrection
king of the Jews
poste on His cross for all to see.....in three different languages

He did not die for our sins
He died because of them

the dogmatic teaching stems from the practice Moses allowed to his people
bring an animal of value
Moses would lay his hand upon the sinner
and then unto the animal

someone appropriate would then take the animal to the wilderness and stake it to the ground.....to die
with the sinners offense upon it

it's called scapegoating

and so.....
do you really believe?.....a carpenter slain upon a cross two thousand years ago
is your pass word (Name)
for your entry into heaven

I can see it.....
with your last breath you call upon heaven
and the angels take you to your Mentor

WHAT IS THIS...???

and the angelic that brought you to Him will excuse themselves...….

he used your Name as if it belonged to him
we thought he was one of Yours

and you shall your day of reckoning with your Lord

Thief · May 28, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
Some deeds can eventually be forgiven, but can they be forgotten?

my grandmother was washing dishes ….and said to me....

You can forgive.....but you never forget

not sure what brought her to speak such a thing
and she did not say of it
or anything more

Kenny · May 28, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
And for some forgiveness is difficult to extend. Some deeds can eventually be forgiven, but can they be forgotten? Is that required?

No, I don't believe that it is scripturally required as I don't believe that forgiveness means stay in a situation.

It would appear to me that forgiveness is about being able to continue living. It's more about you than the other person. When someone owes you money and you have no recourse, one can get upset, irritated and even infuriated to the point that when one sees that person it is upsetting. Yet the one who owes, simply lives life on without a care.

Forgiveness lets you live by not letting the past dictate your future happiness.

Ellen Brown said:
I was gifted with forgiveness for assaults that occured over 14 years of my youth. It was an indescribable blessing and I knew that if I did not let that go, I would not see heaven. Yet, I know those who have not and likely will not forgive him. The pain they carry must be indescribable. It is for they and God to confront that pain in their own way, and none of my business.

So sorry about what happened. I just heard a person from our church relate how the first 20 years of her life was her being tortured and how it took three years of communion with God to wash it out. (not forgotten). What a change in her life and that of her husband and children because she now is free.

And, yes, the pain must be indescribable. Hopefully we can be a catalyst of God to, as Jesus said "Heal the broken hearted." I'm so happy that you were able to participate in His healing.

Ellen Brown said:
I see it from the Christian point of view, and I see it rather inexpertly from the Muslim point of view. Forgiveness seems imbedded in Christianity, but do Christians actually practice it?

I think regardless... people are people. Some put works to their faith and forgive and others do not. I am reminded how Jesus said that the one who could forgive was tormented. I'm sure that un forgiveness continues to torment people.e

Ellen Brown said:
For the Muslim, perhaps forgiveness is in the five prayers a day? If one has never witnessed and understood a Muslim praying, even just once, it is a beautiful thing. The praising of Allah SWT, the asking for forgiveness and guidance are so inspiring and healing. It is doubtful that one can be more humble than when they are on their hands and knees with their forehead on the floor, asking for forgiveness and praising the One Creator.

Good question. Regardless of one's faith, forgiveness works for all.

Ellen Brown said:
Yet, our world still seems full of anger and hatred. Is that because we are poor followers of God, or is the tormenter misleading us. God, have mercy on us.

Yes, may God have mercy and, regardless of what other people do, may we be carriers of grace, mercy and love that heals

Niblo · May 28, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
In Islam, though I do not know all the details, murder can be forgiven by the victim's family for a price.

As-Salāmu ‘alaykum, Sister.

Murder is a ‘Qiyas’ crime; and the victim’s immediate family can do one of three things: They can demand retribution; they can claim monetary compensation; or they can pardon. The third option (pardon; forgiveness) is considered, by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), to be the best: ‘And the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and his act brings about reformation, his reward is with Allāh.’ (Al-Shura: 40).

Niblo · May 28, 2019

whirlingmerc said:
In the Bible god forgives sinners and even shows love to them. In Islam I believe that would not be the claim.

Islam places great emphasis on the nature of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s forgiveness. According to Islamic theology all will stand before Him on the Day of Judgment. Each will be given a record of their lives. Those whose book is placed in their right hand will be admitted to Paradise; and those whose book is placed in their left will not.

It is a tradition that a record of good deeds is made straight away; but that a record of bad deeds is delayed for some hours, to allow for repentance. Even when a sin is recorded it can be erased by sincere and genuine repentance (tawbah). Not only does tawbah wipe out an evil deed, it transforms that deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

Every day of their lives - many times a day - Muslims speak the words: ‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’. These are the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names these are His favorite. That is why we are asked to speak them so often - so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness.

Ellen Brown · May 28, 2019

Niblo said:
As-Salāmu ‘alaykum, Sister.

Murder is a ‘Qiyas’ crime; and the victim’s immediate family can do one of three things: They can demand retribution; they can claim monetary compensation; or they can pardon. The third option (pardon; forgiveness) is considered, by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), to be the best: ‘And the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and his act brings about reformation, his reward is with Allāh.’ (Al-Shura: 40).

Alhumduallah.

Shukran Jazillian.

MJFlores · May 28, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
Isn't that view a bit harsh? Of course there are groups that practice the vengeful, punishing God, but I am not of that mind set. In my dotage, it seems clear that those around us getting revenge, and the consequences of our actions provide just lots of punishment, even after contriteness and repentance? I would be fearful of God were I one to enjoy the punishment and suffering of a sinner.

Hopefully, not too long until I face God myself armed only with "I tried as hard as I could" in the face of my many failings.

Matthew 7:22-23 New International Version (NIV)
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

I believe these situation will be experienced by many people - on Judgement Day
Even when these people have done so much

How much more with ordinary folks who didn't prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?

And I believe that will be many people like that on that day.

What is important then?
To be known by Christ.
A lot of people allegedly know Christ but do they really?
Knowing Christ is important but being known by Christ is the most important thing of all.

Is The Christian forgiveness for sin, or Atonement real?

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