Foolish duplicity detected:

Left Coast said:

Instead of bemoaning how terrible the thread is, why don't you actually point out one of the "caricatures" and "false narratives" and demonstrate how it's inaccurate, and then we can discuss it?

Click to expand...

I wasn't 'bemoaning!', anything.. just making an observation. I do like the hyperbole, here.. one of my favorite literary devices!
But that is a good idea.. maybe I'll start a thread refuting the caricatures and false narratives, and discussing them with the open minded members, here.

I'm a little worried that too much alternate views will be too triggering on the progressive indoctrinees, and will elicit howls to ban and censor my posts. I see that a lot, these days.. many forums are just echo chambers for the Approved Beliefs.

usfan said:

I wasn't 'bemoaning!', anything.. just making an observation. I do like the hyperbole, here.. one of my favorite literary devices!
But that is a good idea.. maybe I'll start a thread refuting the caricatures and false narratives, and discussing them with the open minded members, here.

I'm a little worried that too much alternate views will be too triggering on the progressive indoctrinees, and will elicit howls to ban and censor my posts. I see that a lot, these days.. many forums are just echo chambers for the Approved Beliefs.

Click to expand...

It's up to you. Such subjects must be handled with tact and tempered with love when bringing to point the issues with people. Sometimes it even takes reflecting on it a long time before posting. Otherwise, it's often better to keep the peace.

Though members are urging you to, I'd take a step back from doing so. I know I'm probably like an evil progressivist to you (just guessing), but I like you, I just don't quite know how to tell you how to word your posts with a bit more sensitivity. Which is really hard on a forum where you've got people of all beliefs. It is hard.

usfan said:

I wasn't 'bemoaning!', anything.. just making an observation. I do like the hyperbole, here.. one of my favorite literary devices! But that is a good idea.. maybe I'll start a thread refuting the caricatures and false narratives, and discussing them with the open minded members, here.

Click to expand...

Sounds great, as long as you address what people actually said here, not strawmen in your head.

I'm a little worried that too much alternate views will be too triggering on the progressive indoctrinees, and will elicit howls to ban and censor my posts. I see that a lot, these days.. many forums are just echo chambers for the Approved Beliefs.

Click to expand...

Oh give me a break. You're the only one looking triggered right now. People dare to question the obviously twisted ethics in your holy book and you cry bigotry and persecution.

usfan said:

That would be another thread, addressing any alleged 'flaws!', in the bible.. but how does that justify bashing people's beliefs? Isn't that just old fashioned religious bigotry? Where you extol the wisdom of YOUR beliefs, and ridicule any competitors?

Honesty is not the issue. Belief and perspective, is. But i just noticed a trend.. or a sport.. of Christian bashing, here.. not really surprising, given the direction of the public discourse.

Click to expand...

If a person cannot own up to the flaws in his beliefs he opens himself up to what you call bashing and others see as correction. It is far from bigotry. My beliefs are different than yours. They are evidence based. And no *Christian bashing" is not a sport here. Only those that go out of their way to be obnoxious get laughed at. Be polite, be ready to support your claims with evidence and you will not be bashed.

For example you went out of your way to be rude when you relied on an equivocation fallacy and then rejected correction. Equivocation fallacies are almost always rude in their application. It is hypocritical to complain when a little chaff is thrown back at you.

Subduction Zone said:

The problem is that Christians have not been able to own up to the flaws in the Bible. If they could be honest there would be no need to "bash".

Click to expand...

Some of us recognize them.

Dan From Smithville said:

Some of us recognize them.

Click to expand...

I know, some as you know are creationists, they do not have that quality. We even had a Flerfer or two here. Reading the Bible literally is the quickest way to refute it.

Subduction Zone said:

I know, some as you know are creationists, they do not have that quality. We even had a Flerfer or two here. Reading the Bible literally is the quickest way to refute it.

Click to expand...

The Bible worshipers hate that too.

Subduction Zone said:

For example you went out of your way to be rude when you relied on an equivocation fallacy and then rejected correction.

Click to expand...

I just have a problem with false accusations, and dismissive, disrespectful posters. I tend to fade from the discussion, which is likely the goal. Intimidation and bullying is an effective tactic for one sided 'debates'. You've done this in every thread I've posted in, so far, as well as a few others.

I bring intelligent discussion, eloquence, friendly, acceptance, scholarship, and overt humility , to forum discussions. But i do not care for the phony, 'Atheists vs Christians!' flame war, that has become so prevalent in the public discourse. I'd rather just fade away, and die the last free American.

The ignore feature is not something i use. But i do begin to skip over the hostile, ad hom filled posts. It's all i can do.

usfan said:

I just have a problem with false accusations, and dismissive, disrespectful posters. I tend to fade from the discussion, which is likely the goal. Intimidation and bullying is an effective tactic for one sided 'debates'. You've done this in every thread I've posted in, so far, as well as a few others.

I bring intelligent discussion, eloquence, friendly, acceptance, scholarship, and overt humility , to forum discussions. But i do not care for the phony, 'Atheists vs Christians!' flame war, that has become so prevalent in the public discourse. I'd rather just fade away, and die the last free American.

The ignore feature is not something i use. But i do begin to skip over the hostile, ad hom filled posts. It's all i can do.

Click to expand...

Where have I bullied? You used an incorrect and rather rude technique. That does not mean you need you need to change your code beliefs. You only need to change your debating strategy.

By the way, you need to learn what an ad hom is too. No one used those against you.

usfan said:

I just have a problem with false accusations, and dismissive, disrespectful posters. I tend to fade from the discussion, which is likely the goal. Intimidation and bullying is an effective tactic for one sided 'debates'. You've done this in every thread I've posted in, so far, as well as a few others.

I bring intelligent discussion, eloquence, friendly, acceptance, scholarship, and overt humility , to forum discussions. But i do not care for the phony, 'Atheists vs Christians!' flame war, that has become so prevalent in the public discourse. I'd rather just fade away, and die the last free American.

The ignore feature is not something i use. But i do begin to skip over the hostile, ad hom filled posts. It's all i can do.

Click to expand...

It might bring you peace. I hope I continue to be able to talk to you because I'm just a rather neutral party on these subjects.

I believe there's a Bible verse that says something about how it's better to keep the peace than to be able to overthrow a city. It's not the best example, but it is when you apply it to debating sometimes.

Anyways, I myself probably will never ignore anyone. But in your case, you might also want to consider the boards which aren't about heavy debating.

This is probably all the advice I'll give on this subject, since I'm still new, and it's really not my place.



I was wondering if we could take this talk to a thread that's more about it?

KelseyR said:

It's my understanding that theists paint atheists as being the fools, and there are certainly textual passages that label every non-believer as such. Apart from belief versus non-belief I think the major separation issue is the valuing of reason, and herein lies a problem someone can perhaps resolve:

Theists will regularly corrupt reason in order to support their claims.
They also revile reason in order to fraudulently raise God over Man.

I don't care for this duplicity; this blowing hot and cold over one topic. And sorry if this all seems too defensive. Some things just need to be said, no matter how painful.

Click to expand...

I really like your new avatar.

Deeje said:

Since I am not aware of any "atrocities" committed in the name of my religion, I am rather puzzled by this. Please do not assign the misdeeds committed in the name of Christendom to JW's. We are no part of that institution.

"Christianity" is defined by actions, not empty words.

Click to expand...

Hello? Alabama? Missouri? Several other misogynistic states?

usfan said:

That would be another thread, addressing any alleged 'flaws!', in the bible.. but how does that justify bashing people's beliefs? Isn't that just old fashioned religious bigotry? Where you extol the wisdom of YOUR beliefs, and ridicule any competitors?

Honesty is not the issue. Belief and perspective, is. But i just noticed a trend.. or a sport.. of Christian bashing, here.. not really surprising, given the direction of the public discourse.

Click to expand...

Hello! Alabama... Missouri... several other recent religious hate-laws...

Diamond said:

I don't feel God treats us as a whole we are individuals and have to live our own life

Click to expand...

I agree. We are all individuals traveling our own path. What we choose tells God a lot about us...our desires, our priorities and our main interests in life. We have to be careful that that isn't just focused on ourselves.

I don't look for a religion because of how I feel about Christians always claiming they are the right ones and so sure everything in those scriptures are without a doubt accurate

Click to expand...

And yet, if there is a God, what better way to transmit his will to us than the written word. It then doesn't end up like Chinese whispers. If God inspired his word, then we would expect that it would guide us in the right way and make us better people by following its advice. The teachings of Jesus for example, if they are followed, protect us from many of the things that plague unbelievers. So to my way of thinking, "Christian" is not a label but a description of how a person lives and what a person does every day of their lives. I also observe that many who identify as "Christian" are the worst of hypocrites. Do they think God is not looking?

I do however seek more and more to learn about my spirituality and my individual path God has placed me on

Click to expand...

That is where you and I would differ then. I do not believe that God 'places' us on any particular path but allows us to choose our own path based on who and what we are as individuals. There is so much that shapes who we become....genetics, parenting, environment, adult influences etc. Most of those things we have no control over. So if all of those factors are taken into consideration, then the person we become is the result of many different influences. God allows us to choose where those influences take us. That will either put us on his radar or make us invisible as someone he doesn't want to know.

I don't expect for others to believe in my path,I could care less and care even less about theirs, it's a personal thing ,God loves me for me; not for Mary,Tom and Mack.

I don't believe in the bible and that's my chose,God created me so he already knows how I operate and loves me for it.

Click to expand...

Since God inspired the Bible, and everything we know about him comes from that book, putting it down as if it is meaningless, to me seems rather foolish. God's love covers mankind as a whole, but individually we have to prove to be the kind of person he wants as a citizen of his Kingdom. The Bible tells us that not even those who purport to be "Christians" in good standing will make it through the narrow door. (Luke 13:24; Matthew 7:21-23) We have to be found "doing the will of the Father", rather than just catering to our own will. Also consider that if people are doing things that God condemns, then they cannot assume that God loves them for it.....The people of Noah's time and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah would have to receive an apology if that was the case.

I believe that we ignore the Bible at our own peril. Obedience is all God has ever asked of his intelligent creation.....it forms the basis of how God will deal with us.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Hello? Alabama? Missouri? Several other misogynistic states?

Click to expand...

Wow, how many Americans actually believe that a world exists outside of their country?

I am Australian....I live in a mostly secular nation where we do not have your particular problems. I am not familiar with what you are asserting and quite frankly, I couldn't care less. What happens in your country is nothing to do with me.

Misogyny exists in many parts of the world because men think that they have a right to be the boss. Culture tells them that. We left that culture behind decades ago.

I assure you that no atrocities were ever committed by Jehovah's Witnesses...OK? We will not deliberately harm anyone.

Deeje said:

I assure you that no atrocities were ever committed by Jehovah's Witnesses...OK? We will not deliberately harm anyone.

Click to expand...

Citation needed. You have zero credibility.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Citation needed. You have zero credibility.

Click to expand...

With you? Sorry but what do you want me to do?

Jehovah's Witnesses suffered in the Nazi death camps.

Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia

We are conscientious objectors to war.

South Korea Frees 58 Conscientious Objectors in Wake of Landmark Ruling

We are persecuted in many countries because of our refusal to take human life.

Russian Jehovah's Witnesses call for torture probe

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Citation needed. You have zero credibility.

Click to expand...

She has a point. But the only reason is that the Jehovah's Witnesses are a very small cult that has no political power since they eschew politics as part of their beliefs, and no other power because their numbers are so small. The only people that they harm are their own, and they do that in several different ways.

Deeje said:

I agree. We are all individuals traveling our own path. What we choose tells God a lot about us...our desires, our priorities and our main interests in life. We have to be careful that that isn't just focused on ourselves.



And yet, if there is a God, what better way to transmit his will to us than the written word. It then doesn't end up like Chinese whispers. If God inspired his word, then we would expect that it would guide us in the right way and make us better people by following its advice. The teachings of Jesus for example, if they are followed, protect us from many of the things that plague unbelievers. So to my way of thinking, "Christian" is not a label but a description of how a person lives and what a person does every day of their lives. I also observe that many who identify as "Christian" are the worst of hypocrites. Do they think God is not looking?



That is where you and I would differ then. I do not believe that God 'places' us on any particular path but allows us to choose our own path based on who and what we are as individuals. There is so much that shapes who we become....genetics, parenting, environment, adult influences etc. Most of those things we have no control over. So if all of those factors are taken into consideration, then the person we become is the result of many different influences. God allows us to choose where those influences take us. That will either put us on his radar or make us invisible as someone he doesn't want to know.



Since God inspired the Bible, and everything we know about him comes from that book, putting it down as if it is meaningless, to me seems rather foolish. God's love covers mankind as a whole, but individually we have to prove to be the kind of person he wants as a citizen of his Kingdom. The Bible tells us that not even those who purport to be "Christians" in good standing will make it through the narrow door. (Luke 13:24; Matthew 7:21-23) We have to be found "doing the will of the Father", rather than just catering to our own will. Also consider that if people are doing things that God condemns, then they cannot assume that God loves them for it.....The people of Noah's time and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah would have to receive an apology if that was the case.

I believe that we ignore the Bible at our own peril. Obedience is all God has ever asked of his intelligent creation.....it forms the basis of how God will deal with us.

Click to expand...

I so believe the Christians says he knows everything so he doesn't have to see what we do or think to tell him how we are he already know.

Diamond said:

I so believe the Christians says he knows everything so he doesn't have to see what we do or think to tell him how we are he already know.

Click to expand...

What???? Could you translate that to something coherent please....?