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Who will get to heaven?

KelseyR

The eternal optimist!
I could also be eternally optimistic about nature if people didn’t keep trying to mess it up so much.

I was referring to the ability of nature to provide eternal life replete with familiar delights- and to do so without compromising the vitality of our existence.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm sure I could answer those questions.
Evidently, you cannot.

I think I will let this conversation die.
It's becoming apparent that you have no interest in a discussion.

Someone one said:
A person who knows everything has nothing to learn.

What is that?

tenor.gif


OK
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Romans 5:12
This is what happened: Sin came into the world by one man, Adam. Sin brought death with it. Death spread to all men because all have sinned.
I appreciate your desire to appeal to the scriptures, but I'm not fond of this version of the Bible.

Just for my personal sake, I'm going to requote the above verse from the King James Version.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

First off, in my original comment that led to this discussion I did not say that Adam or Eve had never sinned or that they had not sinned in partaking of the fruit. What I said was,

"This idea that Adam and Eve did something wicked when they partook the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is very new..." (Bold added)

To commit sin and to do something wicked are not the same thing.

To do something wicked is to imply an evil motive, while sins can be committed with any kind of motive. They can even be committed in ignorance.

Since Adam and Eve did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil prior to partaking of the fruit, they were unable to do so with any good or evil intent or motivation.

I believe that Paul himself made this very same argument two verses after the one you quoted. He said,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14) (Bold and italics added)

Paul labelled what Adam had done as a "transgression", although anyone else who decided to act in "similitude" of what Adam had done would commit sin.

The key difference being that anyone else would have had the Knowledge of Good and Evil and would therefore have the capacity to sin, while Adam, in the Garden, did not.

Adam and Eve were not wicked people. They did not act in wickedness when they partook of the fruit. That is a very new idea.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
First off, in my original comment that led to this discussion I did not say that Adam or Eve had never sinned or that they had not sinned in partaking of the fruit. What I said was,

"This idea that Adam and Eve did something wicked when they partook the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is very new..." (Bold added)

To commit sin and to do something wicked are not the same thing.

To do something wicked is to imply an evil motive, while sins can be committed with any kind of motive. They can even be committed in ignorance.

Since Adam and Eve did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil prior to partaking of the fruit, they were unable to do so with any good or evil intent or motivation.

I believe that Paul himself made this very same argument two verses after the one you quoted. He said,

Ok... understand the difference... Not all sins are wicked but every wicked act is a sin would be another way to say it. Likewise, a person can do a wicked deed and not be wicked.

But isn't whether or not what Adam and Eve did was wicked an opinion at most?

It can be viewed that Adam chose to not believe the truth and select another god as the way to truth and life which could be classified as a wicked decision. Certainly, if I caused a death, it could be classified as a wicked deed.

Since Adam and Eve did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil prior to partaking of the fruit, they were unable to do so with any good or evil intent or motivation.
Certainly this point would be a matter of opinion IMV. They did know what happened to Lucifer/Satan/Serpent (also known as the Wicked One). I don't need to go to jail to understand that I don't want to rob a bank. So they did understand that separation from God is not good and to choose the path of Satan is a wrong decision.

Ultimately, I would guess that it's God's call and for us, just an opinion.

Just curious, what is your point about all of this?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg

My question: Why not?

Bible tells eternal life is for righteous:


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mat. 25:46

People who have not yet heard of God or Jesus can be counted righteous by this:


For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.

Romans 2:12-16
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
“The nature of heaven is to provide a place there for all who lead good lives, no matter what their religion may be.”
― Emanuel Swedenborg My question: Why not?
I find Jesus answers who will get to Heaven at Luke 22:28-30; 2 Timothy 2:12
The majority of mankind (John 3:13) will have a future healthy physical resurrection back to live life on Earth.
People resurrected to Heaven are part of a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10.
Then, those of Acts of the Apostles 24:15 will have a future resurrection on Earth with the opportunity to gain everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth promised to the humble meek who will inherit the Earth.
This physical resurrection takes place during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Ok... understand the difference... Not all sins are wicked but every wicked act is a sin would be another way to say it. Likewise, a person can do a wicked deed and not be wicked.
But isn't whether or not what Adam and Eve did was wicked an opinion at most?
It can be viewed that Adam chose to not believe the truth and select another god as the way to truth and life which could be classified as a wicked decision. Certainly, if I caused a death, it could be classified as a wicked deed.

Eve was deceived according to 1 Timothy 2:14, but Not Adam.
Adam knew the death penalty for breaking God's Law - Genesis 2:17
Adam was created with human perfection thus Adam could only do wrong by choice.
Thus, Adam's sin was on purpose, willful, intentional.
By breaking God's Law then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into man's hands.
In effect, Adam set up Man Rule as being superior to God Rule.
In other words, Adam was saying to God that man can govern himself better than God can.
By deliberately breaking God's Law, Adam caused his own death. In that sense, Adam committed suicide.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Bible tells eternal life is for righteous:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mat. 25:46
People who have not yet heard of God or Jesus can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.

Romans 2:12-16

I find the eternal punishment for the wicked is that the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7.
Plus, since there will be a resurrection of the 'righteous and unrighteous' as per Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Then, both the righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected. Not the wicked.
Unrighteous ones can be those who did Not have the opportunity to hear of God or Jesus.
After all, ' death ' is the price tag Paid in Full that sin pays according to Romans 6:23,7
Thus, there is No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy for the dead.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Also, you say the soul is not permanent. Yes.
But do you think we also have a spirit, or inner self? Which is what becomes enlightened upon letting go of the human existence.

I also agree the soul in Not permanent ( after all Adam was Not permanent )
The soul that sins dies, and the soul can be destroyed - Ezekiel 18:4,20; Acts of the Apostles 3:23.
At Adam's death he lost his life's spirit. Without breath there is No spirit of life.
And as Ecclesiastes 12:7 says one's spirit (IT) returns to God.
One's spirit (IT) is neuter just as it is found at Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25.
(IT) returns in the sense as a foreclosed house returns to the owner.
The house does Not move or go any where but any future now lies in the hands of the owner.
Thus, any future resurrection hope now lies in God's safe hands.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
I was referring to the ability of nature to provide eternal life replete with familiar delights- and to do so without compromising the vitality of our existence.

I believe nature is the only thing which can give us a glimpse of eternity and eternal life. Why? Because it is the only thing that appears to be designed to be eternal. All life forms (nature?) are designed to reproduce indefinitely.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
I appreciate your desire to appeal to the scriptures, but I'm not fond of this version of the Bible.

Just for my personal sake, I'm going to requote the above verse from the King James Version.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

First off, in my original comment that led to this discussion I did not say that Adam or Eve had never sinned or that they had not sinned in partaking of the fruit. What I said was,

"This idea that Adam and Eve did something wicked when they partook the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is very new..." (Bold added)

To commit sin and to do something wicked are not the same thing.

To do something wicked is to imply an evil motive, while sins can be committed with any kind of motive. They can even be committed in ignorance.

Since Adam and Eve did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil prior to partaking of the fruit, they were unable to do so with any good or evil intent or motivation.

I believe that Paul himself made this very same argument two verses after the one you quoted. He said,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14) (Bold and italics added)

Paul labelled what Adam had done as a "transgression", although anyone else who decided to act in "similitude" of what Adam had done would commit sin.

The key difference being that anyone else would have had the Knowledge of Good and Evil and would therefore have the capacity to sin, while Adam, in the Garden, did not.

Adam and Eve were not wicked people. They did not act in wickedness when they partook of the fruit. That is a very new idea.
Hi and thanks for your very thoughtful response. I am guessing you are responding to my comment. Well, I must say that I, again, have nothing to disagree with above. I also prefer the KJV.
And everything you say about Adam and Eve, I see nothing to disagree with. In my response, I spoke more about Cain. But to me, the same concept carries to Cain, as well. We are hardly born knowing all good and all evil. Just because the tree of knowledge gives us the ability to know evil, does not mean we actually do. And it would be impossible to know evil, unless we know good. And knowing good is a choice, which few seek. The Lord said that few would find it.
If a person only knows evil, they cannot know that it IS evil. They will actually think it is good. I could cite the people running the US government as exhibit A. Those who are speaking and doing evil do not know what they are doing. All the horrible self centered politicians have no grasp that they are evil. They believe they are doing good. But then the Lord said “forgive them for they know not what they do”. That sentence shows that the tree of knowledge did not grant the ability for all to understand that they are evil. Only a “few” can actually know that they are evil. The rest, the “many”, know not what they do.

Sorry, I’m slow to respond.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I find Jesus answers who will get to Heaven at Luke 22:28-30; 2 Timothy 2:12
The majority of mankind (John 3:13) will have a future healthy physical resurrection back to live life on Earth.
People resurrected to Heaven are part of a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10.
Then, those of Acts of the Apostles 24:15 will have a future resurrection on Earth with the opportunity to gain everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth promised to the humble meek who will inherit the Earth.
This physical resurrection takes place during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
Maybe I can't read very good but I cannot find where the verses you mention say anything about anyone being in heaven. If I am wrong please quote the verse that says this.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Sorry for the late response. Life, ya know?
What did Cain do? Genesis 4:3 tells us. “Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering to the Lord”. This is the only information we have regarding what Cain did that displeased the Lord. We see no counsel from the Lord previous to this, indicating that such an act would displease the Lord.
The Genesis account is often vague for reasons I can only guess at.

It is my belief that Moses included only the "highlights" of these ancient events because his audience, the ancient Israelites, already knew much of these things due to their oral tradition.

What we see as "gaps" Moses probably saw as "skimming over the stuff everyone already knows".

Now, as to what Cain did, that all depends on which version of events you subscribe to.

There are some traditions that claim that God rejected Cain's offering because Cain offered it while lacking the proper mind-set or motivation.

Another claims that God considered the fruits of the field inferior to the firstlings of the flocks.

I am a Latter-day Saint and I believe that there are modern books of scripture received by prophets in our day.

According to the Book of Moses, a book of modern-day scripture received by revelation, there were two reasons for why Cain's offering was rejected;

1.) Cain made an offering in opposition to the instructions God gave to Adam, which was to offer the firstlings of the flock,

"And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord." (Moses 5:5)

2.) Cain was motivated to make the offering by the command of Satan,

"And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.

And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." (Moses 5:18-19)

Satan did this with the hope of angering Cain for he knew that the Lord would reject such an offering.

"But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect. Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell." (Moses 5:21)

I believe that the account in the Book of Moses is the most accurate, not only because of my membership in the Church, but it helps clarify verses in the Genesis account that otherwise do not make sense on their own.

In the Genesis account after Cain's offering was rejected and he became more wroth the record reads,

"And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:6-7) (Bold and italics added)

I believe this is a reference by the Lord to Satan, for He knew that Cain had made a false offering according to Satan's desire and that if Cain were to continue down this path he would find himself in a position even worse off than Satan himself.

If that were not so, then who is the "his" and "him" the Lord is referencing here?
Further down, once Cain kills Abel, we note that the Lord curses and banishes Cain from the ground. This is it?
I believe that this is a huge punishment and that the Lord had His reasons for keeping Cain alive.

The scriptures claim that Cain was a "tiller of the ground" and now that he was "cursed from the earth", he can never again work his craft and he can never truly settle or find peace because he would need to move with the seasons as a wanderer for the rest of his days.

Not only this, but the "mark" placed upon him made it so anyone and everyone would set him apart and he could no longer associate with Adam's righteous children. Considering that the only other people in the world at the time were his family members, that's huge.

The Book of Moses claims that Adam and Eve had many children before Cain,

"And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth.

And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters." (Moses 5:2-3)

It also claims that when Cain was cursed that he was separated from the Lord (spiritual death) and that he and others of his siblings left Adam and Eve,

"And Cain was shut out from the presence of the Lord, and with his wife and many of his brethren dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden." (Moses 5:41)

So, he could only find association with those who were like himself.
 
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Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Also, Cain worries that someone may try to kill him, but the Lord promises to protect him for life. And we see he has a fruitful long life, even gets to found his own city and name it!! Surely not the kind of punishment so many people in the US demand for others who steal a loaf of bread when they’re hungry or any number of menial crimes.
I have some personal opinions for why the Lord did this.

When Cain murdered Abel, he denied his brother of any future progeny, which is one of the main reasons for why we enter into mortality.

The Lord allowed Cain to live and to have children so that the possibility would one day arise when some of Cain's descendants would be raised unto Abel.

Just like how in the Law of Moses when a man dies without having children, his brother would then marry his deceased brother's wife and have children by her that would be dedicated to the deceased brother.

I don't know exactly when or how this may be done, but it is my opinion that this was the reason for why Cain was spared.
My point of all this, being, that I see much more in those few early verses of Genesis 4.
I do too. I believe there is a lot more that was either lost to time or never recorded.
Now I’ll get to a tougher one. How can a person be saved by faith? What does that look like? And what exactly is faith?
These are huge topics that I could never do proper justice.

I'm gonna share a link to a definition of faith and accompanying scripture references.

Hopefully this will help us narrow down the discussion. Get more specific and detailed questions and answers.

Faith in Jesus Christ
But then these particular questions demand a definition of ‘saved’. What is that exactly?
Salvation is basically being saved from the effects of both sin (spiritual death) and physical death brought on by the Fall of Man.

The Lord Jesus Christ, through His suffering, has already redeemed all people from the Fall, meaning that no one is blamed for it.

We all come into this world innocent and sinless although we still suffer the effects of the Fall such as temptation to sin, pain and eventual physical death.

Since the Lord Jesus Christ suffered death and conquered it through His Resurrection, all of Mankind will one day receive this free gift of Resurrection, which is salvation from physical death.

Our spirits will be reunited with our physical bodies, only this time our bodies will be perfect. No more pain, disease, weakness or death.

Being saved from sin, also called spiritual death (because being separated from God is death to our spirits) requires action on the part of the individual.

We can receive forgiveness of sin in this life by keeping God's commandments, which can cause us to live with greater feelings of peace, love and compassion thus receiving certain benefits of salvation in mortality.
And why can’t someone be saved in ignorance?
In all honesty everyone in the world, regardless of any factor, is promised salvation eventually.

The word "eventually" is what I want to focus on.

The Lord Jesus Christ has suffered for the sins of all the world. Not just the educated. Not just the spiritual. For all the world.

However, when a person will receive the benefits of that salvation depends on the individual.

Those in mortality who live righteously, rely on the Lord through faith, repent of their sins and enter into the sacred covenant of baptism can enjoy many benefits of salvation now in mortality.

They cannot be saved from physical death in this life, but they can overcome many sins and receive the blessings that come from that.

No one can overcome sin or be forgiven of sin without having a knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has down for us.

Even if you procrastinate your repentance until you enter the spirit world after this life, you must learn about the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation from sin.

It is always better to repent of your sins ASAP because you can gain more wisdom and experience. The more you have when you depart this life the better off you will be in the next.
My engineering brain struggles with this. You say the knowledge can come in the spirit world. I have no problem with that. My problem comes in the second sentence. You say it’s always better to come earlier rather than later. You underlined and made bold the ‘always’. This seems to be illogical, since the spirit world exists in eternity. Mathematically, our time on earth is zero compared to eternity. Whether we live 7 years or 77, dividing by infinity is zero for both of them. So, why would there be a benefit to come to a certain knowledge earlier or even at all, in this world, considering we have eternity to obtain the knowledge? (Per your first sentence)
I understand how that can be confusing and it comes from a common misunderstanding.

The "spirit world" is still bound by time. It does not exist in eternity. We do not enter eternity immediately upon death.

The spirit world is here upon the Earth and all the spirits of Mankind will go there immediately upon leaving their physical bodies.

We wait in the spirit world until the time of our Resurrection. Then after we are resurrected we receive our Final Judgment and then we enter into eternity.

It is possible to continue to learn and grow in the spirit world. The more you learn and grow in mortality, the greater the learning and growing will be in the spirit world. Exponentially so.

This is why I stress the importance of coming to the Lord Jesus Christ ASAP so you can learn and grow as He would want you to.
I hope I didn’t overwhelm you with so many questions. Answer whatever you like. I appreciate any thoughts given
Are you kidding? I'm having a blast!
 
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Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
I have some personal opinions for why the Lord did this.

When Cain murdered Abel, he denied his brother of any future progeny, which is one of the main reasons for why we enter into mortality.

The Lord allowed Cain to live and to have children so that the possibility would one day arise when some of Cain's descendants would be raised unto Abel.

Just like how in the Law of Moses when a man dies without having children, his brother would then marry his deceased brother's wife and have children by her that would be dedicated to the deceased brother.

I don't know exactly when or how this may be done, but it is my opinion that this was the reason for why Cain was spared.

I do too. I believe there is a lot more that was either lost to time or never recorded.

These are huge topics that I could never do proper justice.

I'm gonna share a link to a definition of faith and accompanying scripture references.

Hopefully this will help us narrow down the discussion. Get more specific and detailed questions and answers.

Faith in Jesus Christ

Salvation is basically being saved from the effects of both sin (spiritual death) and physical death brought on by the Fall of Man.

The Lord Jesus Christ, through His suffering, has already redeemed all people from the Fall, meaning that no one is blamed for it.

We all come into this world innocent and sinless although we still suffer the effects of the Fall such as temptation to sin, pain and eventual physical death.

Since the Lord Jesus Christ suffered death and conquered it through His Resurrection, all of Mankind will one day receive this free gift of Resurrection, which is salvation from physical death.

Our spirits will be reunited with our physical bodies, only this time our bodies will be perfect. No more pain, disease, weakness or death.

Being saved from sin, also called spiritual death (because being separated from God is death to our spirits) requires action on the part of the individual.

We can receive forgiveness of sin in this life by keeping God's commandments, which can cause us to live with greater feelings of peace, love and compassion thus receiving certain benefits of salvation in mortality.

In all honesty everyone in the world, regardless of any factor, is promised salvation eventually.

The word "eventually" is what I want to focus on.

The Lord Jesus Christ has suffered for the sins of all the world. Not just the educated. Not just the spiritual. For all the world.

However, when a person will receive the benefits of that salvation depends on the individual.

Those in mortality who live righteously, rely on the Lord through faith, repent of their sins and enter into the sacred covenant of baptism can enjoy many benefits of salvation now in mortality.

They cannot be saved from physical death in this life, but they can overcome many sins and receive the blessings that come from that.

No one can overcome sin or be forgiven of sin without having a knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has down for us.

Even if you procrastinate your repentance until you enter the spirit world after this life, you must learn about the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation from sin.

It is always better to repent of your sins ASAP because you can gain more wisdom and experience. The more you have when you depart this life the better off you will be in the next.

I understand how that can be confusing and it comes from a common misunderstanding.

The "spirit world" is still bound by time. It does not exist in eternity. We do not enter eternity immediately upon death.

The spirit world is here upon the Earth and all the spirits of Mankind will go there immediately upon leaving their physical bodies.

We wait in the spirit world until the time of our Resurrection. Then after we are resurrected we receive our Final Judgment and then we enter into eternity.

It is possible to continue to learn and grow in the spirit world. The more you learn and grow in mortality, the greater the learning and growing will be in the spirit world. Exponentially so.

This is why I stress the importance of coming to the Lord Jesus Christ ASAP so you can learn and grow as He would want you to.

Are you kidding? I'm having a blast!

I’m very glad that you’re having a blast.
I completely understand what you mean.
These types of discussions are so rewarding. Learning and understanding spiritual concepts has been a great joy to me as well.
Thank you for all of your great responses.
I’m going to hit your link and read that next, but in the meantime, a comment of yours raised another question. I can understand your thoughts about the spirit world, yet I get some confusion here. I believe we all have the desire to get beyond the spiritual world into eternity. And it is in eternity that we can grow exponentially so, for eternity. Your statement made it seem like you don’t think there is learning and growing in eternity.
Is that the case?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I’m very glad that you’re having a blast.
I completely understand what you mean.
These types of discussions are so rewarding. Learning and understanding spiritual concepts has been a great joy to me as well.
Thank you for all of your great responses.
I’m going to hit your link and read that next, but in the meantime, a comment of yours raised another question. I can understand your thoughts about the spirit world, yet I get some confusion here. I believe we all have the desire to get beyond the spiritual world into eternity. And it is in eternity that we can grow exponentially so, for eternity. Your statement made it seem like you don’t think there is learning and growing in eternity.
Is that the case?
Where does this "eternity" take place? Heaven? Or somewhere else?
 
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