World Peace and Religion

The_Fisher_King said:

In that sense, all other religions would cease to exist as living religions, having no adherents

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I see they never cease, as they obtain their fulfillment in each subsequent Message.

I see one can not be a true follower of any Faith unless they accept the subsequent Message. Thus an example would be one can not be a True Christain until they accept Muhammad.

The_Fisher_King said:

Confirms in what way

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That they, one and all, Gave a Message from our One God, Allah.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see they never cease, as they obtain their fulfillment in each subsequent Message.

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That's an interesting way of looking at it.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

That they, one and all, Gave a Message from our One God, Allah.

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The same Message?

The_Fisher_King said:

The same Message

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This is explained as the Twofold aspect of Faith. The aspect that is abrogated, which is old Covernant and old the Laws (replaced with the new laws, new Covernant) and the aspect that is eternal.

"The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.
These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty."............"The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Ponder This said:

Why does the existence of 'one true religion' entail that its adherents destroy each other? Why does this 'one true religion' exist?

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Religion is divisive -- this is a fact easy to see operating in the world.

There can only be one true religion -- because each religion will contain truth claims contradicting the other religions. If there is such a thing as a true religion (there isn't), there can only be one.

Since there is no such thing as one true religion, there will always be multiple religions, each trying to dominate the others to become the "one true religion". Even if all religions except one are wiped out, there will still be no peace; this, because religions are not based on truth. Therefore, society will be morally warped causing fights and warfare within this religion.

Trailblazer said:

Do you really think any human being can be perfect?
Why do you think they have to mess things up just because they are imperfect?
Sure, people messed up the former religions over time but the reason is because (1) they did not have a written Covenant, and (2) people were not spiritually evolved. We now have a written Covenant and people are more spiritually evolved. Over time Baha'is will become more spiritual, but we are only in the very beginning of this new religious cycle.

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You are still missing the point. I'm saying people aren't perfect, therefore they will mess things up. People in the Baha'is Faith have already messed things up in big ways and in small ways. Baha'is kick out the Covenant Breakers, and take voting rights away from Baha'is for other offences, and ignore other behavior and say "It is between them and God".

Trailblazer said:

I have very good reasons not to participate in the Baha'i community and I do not need to answer to anyone for that decision. I am only responsible to God and I am doing what I think is the moral thing to do right now and what I am able to do. That could change later.

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Is the Baha'i community a model of diverse people working together to bring about peace and harmony in the world? How well is it working? What needs to be improved to make peace and harmony within the Baha'i community even better?

Trailblazer said:

You are dead wrong. The reason people reject the Baha'i Faith is not because of the Baha'is are not perfect, it is because they are attached to their older religions and they do not want a new religion, or if they are nonbelievers they do not like the idea of Messengers of God.

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"Dead" wrong? People that have joined the Baha'i Faith but become inactive or resign are probably not attached to their old religion. They probably had high hopes for things being better within the Baha'i Faith then their old religion. What was their problem with the Baha'i community?

Trailblazer said:

You knew some Baha'is who were selfish and greedy and broke Baha'i Laws but what percentage of the total number of Baha'is do you think that is?

Just because people have always messed things up does not mean they always will. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is a day that will not be followed by night.

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Like we've been saying... no one is perfect. Therefore, all of us to some degree are selfish and greedy... or get mad, or lie, or cheat, or steal. Even the best of us "mess" up now and again. Covenant Breakers were in high positions in the Baha'i Faith weren't they? I suppose they seemed very loving and strong in the Faith, but what happened? They got greedy? They got selfish? They messed up? So yes, Baha'is do mess up big time. Then you kick them out. Problem solved? Or, are there more Covenant Breakers out there that, right now, appear like wonderful and strong Baha'is?

So the Baha'i Faith has the answers to bring peace to the world. Can it? You can say "yes" all you want, but it's us, the non-Baha'i world, that you have to prove it to. And sorry, but right here on the Forum, Baha'is have not been doing very well at bringing peace between themselves and people from other religions.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

This is explained as the Twofold aspect of Faith. The aspect that is abrogated, which is old Covernant and old the Laws (replaced with the new laws, new Covernant) and the aspect that is eternal.

"The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.
These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty."............"The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

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So what is the eternal part of the Message?

The_Fisher_King said:

Nothing wrong with the idea in principle. It's simply a question of belief. We believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the last (new) Messenger and that no new Messenger is needed.

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Okay, fair enough. Beliefs are beliefs and they do not normally change unless someone is looking for something different or unless someone just got curious about Bahaullah and then came to believe He was actually who He claimed to be. Islam is my favorite religion besides Baha’i. I wish I had the time to read the Qur’an but right now I am too busy. I have not even read the Bible, but I would read the Qur’an before I read the Bible. I was never very interested in religion.

I was not brought up in any religion so the Baha’i Faith was the first religion I encountered and investigated. The last thing I was looking for was God or a religion, but I fell in love with the teachings, so I became a Baha’i two weeks later. I fell away from the religion and from God for decades, but I never doubted that it was the Truth from God.

The_Fisher_King said:

For those of us who believe in the return of Yeshua (pbuh) (some dispute this), he is not a new Messenger, and he will come to return people to the correct, universal teachings of Muhammad (pbuh). The Mahdi is not a Messenger of the likes of Yeshua (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh).

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If He is not considered a new Messenger what would Yeshua be considered, just a man? Who is that Mahdi? I know that the Bab claimed to be the return of someone in Islam but I forgot who. Like I said religion is not something I am well versed in. I have only started to learn a lot about the Baha’i Faith during the last six years, after my long hiatus.

The_Fisher_King said:

We believe that God in His Greatness cannot manifest Himself in human form. I do not believe that any of the Messengers were perfect - they were ordinary human beings, with their own flaws.

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Of course you probably know that Baha’is do not believe that God can incarnate Himself as Christians believe happened. There is a difference between an incarnation and a Manifestation, and that is explained here:


So, Muslims do not believe there is ANY difference between Muhammad and an ordinary human being? What about the Angel Gabriel speaking to Muhammad? Baha’is believe that the Holy Spirit came to Muhammad and the other Messengers such as Moses and that is one thing that differentiates them from ordinary humans.

The Baha’i belief is that the Messengers have a human station and a divine station. In their human station they are utterly self-effaced but in their divine station they are a perfect mirror image of God.

I do not think that the Muslim beliefs about God are any different from Baha’i beliefs about God.

The_Fisher_King said:

Or that all other religions would become defunct.

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That is kind of what I was saying. When they all united under ONE religion, all the other religions would become defunct since there would then only be ONE religion.

I have no idea when this will unfold. All we have been told is that in the future there will be only ONE religion.

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121

The_Fisher_King said:

So what is the eternal part of the Message?

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Please excuse the interruption but that made me think of a passage I often quote...

The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world,and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

CG Didymus said:

You are still missing the point. I'm saying people aren't perfect, therefore they will mess things up. People in the Baha'i Faith have already messed things up in big ways and in small ways. Baha'is kick out the Covenant Breakers, and take voting rights away from Baha'is for other offences, and ignore other behavior and say "It is between them and God".

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What have they messed up and how have they messed it up?
What is wrong with kicking out Covenant-breakers? Covenant breaking is the most serious offense to God's religion that can be committed. They are not just disagreeing with the religion, they are trying to start their own branch of the religion. CBs attack the root of the tree of the religion itself and if that was allowed the religion would split into sects just like all the older religions.

Anything personal is between a person and God. It is nobody else's business and they should not even know about it.

CG Didymus said:

Is the Baha'i community a model of diverse people working together to bring about peace and harmony in the world? How well is it working? What needs to be improved to make peace and harmony within the Baha'i community even better?

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You are asking the wrong person because I am not involved in the community, haven't been for decades. But as I said before, I think building character is the most important thing, but I also think that deepening in the Writings is important, more important than prayer.

CG Didymus said:

"Dead" wrong? People that have joined the Baha'i Faith but become inactive or resign are probably not attached to their old religion. They probably had high hopes for things being better within the Baha'i Faith then their old religion. What was their problem with the Baha'i community?

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How do you KNOW why people become inactive? Why do you think it is because of the Baha'i community? I cannot speak for others but it seems to me that if they were attached to their older religion they would drop out of the Baha'i Faith and go back to that older religion. I think some people just have personal problems or life circumstances that preclude them attending activities.

CG Didymus said:

Like we've been saying... no one is perfect. Therefore, all of us to some degree are selfish and greedy... or get mad, or lie, or cheat, or steal. Even the best of us "mess" up now and again. Covenant Breakers were in high positions in the Baha'i Faith weren't they? I suppose they seemed very loving and strong in the Faith, but what happened? They got greedy? They got selfish? They messed up? So yes, Baha'is do mess up big time. Then you kick them out. Problem solved? Or, are there more Covenant Breakers out there that, right now, appear like wonderful and strong Baha'is?

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I do not think that all the Covenant Breakers were in positions of authority. What causes covenant breaking is selfishness and arrogance so it is a problem with character. There will always be people like this so the only solution is to kick them out.

CG Didymus said:

So the Baha'i Faith has the answers to bring peace to the world. Can it? You can say "yes" all you want, but it's us, the non-Baha'i world, that you have to prove it to. And sorry, but right here on the Forum, Baha'is have not been doing very well at bringing peace between themselves and people from other religions.

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I would not go by a few Baha'is on a forum. Besides, how do you think it feels to constantly be attacked by believers in the older religions who think they own the religion of God... I will leave you with this quote...

“From the beginning of the world until the present time each ‘Manifestation’ 1 sent from God has been opposed by an embodiment of the ‘Powers of Darkness’.

This dark power has always endeavoured to extinguish the light. Tyranny has ever sought to overcome justice. Ignorance has persistently tried to trample knowledge underfoot. This has, from the earliest ages, been the method of the material world.

In the time of Moses, Pharaoh set himself to prevent the Mosaic Light being spread abroad.

In the day of Christ, Annas and Caiaphas inflamed the Jewish people against Him and the learned doctors of Israel joined together to resist His Power. All sorts of calumnies were circulated against Him. The Scribes and Pharisees conspired to make the people believe Him to be a liar, an apostate, and a blasphemer. They spread these slanders throughout the whole Eastern world against Christ, and caused Him to be condemned to a shameful death!

In the case of Muhammad also, the learned doctors of His day determined to extinguish the light of His influence. They tried by the power of the sword to prevent the spread of His teaching.

In spite of all their efforts the Sun of Truth shone forth from the horizon. In every case the army of light vanquished the powers of darkness on the battlefield of the world, and the radiance of the Divine Teaching illumined the earth. Those who accepted the Teaching and worked for the Cause of God became luminous stars in the sky of humanity.

Now, in our own day, history repeats itself.

Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.

Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.” Paris Talks, pp. 102-103

Trailblazer said:

If He is not considered a new Messenger what would Yeshuabe considered, just a man?

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He's not a new Messenger because he is returning.

Trailblazer said:

Who is that Mahdi?

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Different Muslims have different ideas about who the Mahdi will be. Some (typically Shia) believe he has already appeared and is in occultation. Others (typically Sunni) say he is yet to appear.

Trailblazer said:

Of course you probably know that Baha’is do not believe that God can incarnate Himself as Christians believe happened. There is a difference between an incarnation and a Manifestation

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Right. Which is why I used the word 'manifest'.

Trailblazer said:

So, Muslims do not believe there is ANY difference between Muhammad and an ordinary human being?

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Some believe he was a perfect human being. I do not. He was just a very good man.

Trailblazer said:

What about the Angel Gabriel speaking to Muhammad?

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What about it? Muhammad (pbuh) was chosen for his goodness as the right man of the time to lead both his people and all people out of the darkness towards God's Light.

Trailblazer said:

The Baha’i belief is that the Messengers have a human station and a divine station. In their human station they are utterly self-effaced but in their divine station they are a perfect mirror image of God.

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Muslims don't believe that Messengers have a divine station or are a perfect mirror image of God/God's Attributes. God is a Being Whose Attributes cannot be manifest in this way.

Trailblazer said:

That is kind of what I was saying. When they all united under ONE religion, all the other religions would become defunct since there would then only be ONE religion.

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Then we agree!

Trailblazer said:

I have no idea when this will unfold. All we have been told is that in the future there will be only ONE religion.

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And here we part ways. For us, that one religion will be Islam.

Trailblazer said:

The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

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I agree with the notion that all Messengers were sent with a mix of universal and time-specific teachings. Where we differ is in what constitutes the universal teachings. For example, (Muslim forms of) prayer and fasting are to my mind part of the universal teachings.

Trailblazer said:

What causes covenant breaking is selfishness and arrogance so it is a problem with character.

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My turn to butt in LOL. Perhaps covenant breakers are closer to understanding the truth of Baha'u'llah's Message? And in any case, I don't think it is fair to label covenant breakers as selfish and arrogant. That seems to me to be an arrogant thing to say. We can't know what inspires them to act thus. They may be very well-intentioned.

The_Fisher_King said:

He's not a new Messenger because he is returning.

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This is a lesson given by Christ. Christ said John the baptist was Elijah and that Elijah always comes first.

It is obvious John was not the flesh of Elijah, thus Christ taught us that it is the Spiritual attributes that return.

It is also the Spirtual Attributes of a Messenger that returns, not the flesh of the Mesenger. Christ also taught this as, the 'first and last', 'alpha and omega', 'beginning and end'. Also the 'flesh amounts to nothing, it is the spirit that is life'. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was that same Christ Spirit, a return of Christ. The Bab and Baha'u'llah likewise.

Muhammad gave the same lessons.

Regards Tony

The_Fisher_King said:

He's not a new Messenger because he is returning.

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Does that mean that you believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that the physical body of Jesus ascended to heaven and that the physical body of Jesus is going to RETURN?

The_Fisher_King said:

Different Muslims have different ideas about who the Mahdi will be. Some (typically Shia) believe he has already appeared and is in occultation. Others (typically Sunni) say he is yet to appear.

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Okay, but what was he supposed to do?

The_Fisher_King said:

Some believe he was a perfect human being. I do not. He was just a very good man.

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Why do you think that Muslims differ in their beliefs about Muhammad? What did Muhammad say about Himself in the Qur’an? Who did He claim to be?

The_Fisher_King said:

What about it? Muhammad (pbuh) was chosen for his goodness as the right man of the time to lead both his people and all people out of the darkness towards God's Light.

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Okay fair enough, Moses did the same.

The_Fisher_King said:

Muslims don't believe that Messengers have a divine station or are a perfect mirror image of God/God's Attributes. God is a Being Whose Attributes cannot be manifest in this way.

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Interesting. So then do you think that there is no way to know anything about God’s Attributes or do you just think that none of them can be manifested in a Messenger of God?

There are certain Attributes of God that are revealed in the Qur’an so do you think we can only know any Attributes of God because Muhammad described them in the Qur’an?

It is obvious to me that some of the Attributes of God are unique to God (Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial)and these Attributes cannot be manifested in a Messenger of God, but I think that all humans can reflect certain other Attributes of God such as Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient, and that the Messengers of God simply reflect these to a higher degree than any other human being.

“Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light. Methinks, but for the potency of that revelation, no being could ever exist. How resplendent the luminaries of knowledge that shine in an atom, and how vast the oceans of wisdom that surge within a drop! To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed. All these names and attributes are applicable to him. Even as He hath said: “Man is My mystery, and I am his mystery.” Manifold are the verses that have been repeatedly revealed in all the Heavenly Books and the Holy Scriptures, expressive of this most subtle and lofty theme. Even as He hath revealed: “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves.” Again He saith: “And also in your own selves: will ye not, then, behold the signs of God?” And yet again He revealeth: “And be ye not like those who forget God, and whom He hath therefore caused to forget their own selves.” In this connection, He Who is the eternal King—may the souls of all that dwell within the mystic Tabernacle be a sacrifice unto Him—hath spoken: “He hath known God who hath known himself.

. . . From that which hath been said it becometh evident that all things, in their inmost reality, testify to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them. Each according to its capacity, indicateth, and is expressive of, the knowledge of God. So potent and universal is this revelation, that it hath encompassed all things visible and invisible. Thus hath He revealed: “Hath aught else save Thee a power of revelation which is not possessed by Thee, that it could have manifested Thee? Blind is the eye which doth not perceive Thee.” Likewise hath the eternal King spoken: “No thing have I perceived, except that I perceived God within it, God before it, or God after it.” Also in the tradition of Kumayl it is written: “Behold, a light hath shone forth out of the morn of eternity, and lo, its waves have penetrated the inmost reality of all men.” Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory. And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of Their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of Their grace.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 177-179

The_Fisher_King said:

Then we agree!

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The_Fisher_King said:

And here we part ways. For us, that one religion will be Islam.

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How do you think that will be accomplished? Do you think that people of the older religions, and even the Baha’is, will voluntarily choose to become Muslims, or will it have to be accomplished by force? Didn’t Muhammad say in the Qur’an that religion should always be a choice? From what I read, even back during the days of Muhammad, there was no attempt to convert the Christians and Jews.

Christians constitute 33% of the world population and most Christians consider Islam a false religion. How do you think you will ever get them on board?

The_Fisher_King said:

I agree with the notion that all Messengers were sent with a mix of universal and time-specific teachings. Where we differ is in what constitutes the universal teachings. For example, (Muslim forms of) prayer and fasting are to my mind part of the universal teachings.

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Baha’is have revealed and obligatory prayers and a month of fasting but those are not binding upon anyone except Baha’is.

Why do you that the Muslim forms of prayer and fasting should be universal?

The_Fisher_King said:

My turn to butt in LOL. Perhaps covenant breakers are closer to understanding the truth of Baha'u'llah's Message? And in any case, I don't think it is fair to label covenant breakers as selfish and arrogant. That seems to me to be an arrogant thing to say. We can't know what inspires them to act thus. They may be very well-intentioned.

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If Covenant breakers understood Baha’u’llah’s message and if they cared about what Baha’u’llah taught, they would not break the Covenant of Baha’u’llah. The Covenant is very clearly delineated by the Will of Baha’u’llah. Breaking that Covenant shows that CBs do not care about maintaining the unity of the religion, they just want to define it differently and have their own religion. If that is not arrogant and selfish I do not know what is.

However, I agree with you that we cannot KNOW their motivation. They may very well believe that they are doing the will of God.

You are right, it is never good to label anyone as selfish and arrogant. That goes against what Baha’u’llah taught and the reason I said that is because CG has been pushing me for a number of days.

We have to think in terms of how important the Covenant of Baha'u'llah is and what would have happened by now and into the future if we had no such Covenant. The religion would split into thousands of sects, just like Christianity and other older religions. That is why we cannot cut Covenant breakers any slack.

The_Fisher_King said:

I agree with the notion that all Messengers were sent with a mix of universal and time-specific teachings. Where we differ is in what constitutes the universal teachings. For example, (Muslim forms of) prayer and fasting are to my mind part of the universal teachings.

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If Muslim forms of prayer where part of the universal teachings then the Qiblah would never have changed, and the means of prayer and fasting taught by Jews would be the same as that taught by Muhammadans, but they’re not.