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Prayer and Christianity

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
In Human, All Too Human: A Book for Free Spirits, Nietzsche states:

"On two hypotheses alone is there any sense in prayer, that not quite extinct custom of olden times. It would have to be possible either to fix or alter the will of the godhead, and the devotee would have to know best himself what he needs and should really desire. Both hypotheses, axiomatic and traditional in all other religions, are denied by Christianity. If Christianity nevertheless maintained prayer side by side with its belief in the all-wise and all-provident divine reason (a belief that makes prayer really senseless and even blasphemous), it showed here once more its admirable “wisdom of the serpent.” For an outspoken command, “Thou shalt not pray,” would have led Christians by way of boredom to the denial of Christianity. In the Christian ora et labora ora plays the rôle of pleasure. Without ora what could those unlucky saints who renounced labora have done? But to have a chat with God, to ask him for all kinds of pleasant things, to feel a slight amusement at one's own folly in still having any wishes at all, in spite of so excellent a father—all that was an admirable invention for saints."

I think he makes an excellent point. If God is all-powerful and his will is unalterable, then prayer should be considered futile, and even considered to be blasphemy, as praying to God would imply the belief that God's will can be influenced and changed by the human will, which would directly contradict the teachings of Christianity. Yet if prayer was deemed to be sinful behavior, people would leave Christianity out of boredom, and thus the inventors of Christianity decided that prayer should be allowed, even though it is technically irreconcilable with the nature of the Christian god.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think he makes an excellent point. If God is all-powerful and his will is unalterable, then prayer should be considered futile, and even considered to be blasphemy, as praying to God would imply the belief that God's will can be influenced and changed by the human will, which would directly contradict the teachings of Christianity. Yet if prayer was deemed to be sinful behavior, people would leave Christianity out of boredom, and thus the inventors of Christianity decided that prayer should be allowed, even though it is technically irreconcilable with the nature of the Christian god.

It is very interesting how people come up with their own hypothesis to then tear it down.

Forget if the hypothesis is wrong, but as long as it sounds good.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
It is very interesting how people come up with their own hypothesis to then tear it down.

Forget if the hypothesis is wrong, but as long as it sounds good.

What hypothesis? It is simply an illustration of a contradiction in Christian teachings that was preserved in order to keep people from becoming bored with Christianity. What is the point of praying if God's will is unalterable? There is none. And yet if prayer was forbidden, people would get bored with Christianity, and Christianity would disappear.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
What hypothesis? It is simply an illustration of a contradiction in Christian teachings that was preserved in order to keep people from becoming bored with Christianity.
On two hypotheses alone is there any sense in prayer, - is what it says... and you ask "what hypothesis"? :facepalm:

What is the point of praying if God's will is unalterable? There is none.
Is that what prayer is about... to change God's will? I thought Jesus said "Thy will be done" and not "Change God's will". :rolleyes:

And yet if prayer was forbidden, people would get bored with Christianity, and Christianity would disappear.
Another hypothesis... It isn't, so??? :shrug:
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
On two hypotheses alone is there any sense in prayer, - is what it says... and you ask "what hypothesis"? :facepalm:


Is that what prayer is about... to change God's will? I thought Jesus said "Thy will be done" and not "Change God's will". :rolleyes:


Another hypothesis... It isn't, so??? :shrug:

Ok, so you were referring to the hypotheses in the quote. Since you used the singular "hypothesis" I was confused. In any case, what do you think is wrong with the hypotheses, and why do you think they are self-refuting?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think he makes an excellent point. If God is all-powerful and his will is unalterable, then prayer should be considered futile, and even considered to be blasphemy, as praying to God would imply the belief that God's will can be influenced and changed by the human will, which would directly contradict the teachings of Christianity.

It all depends on what you believe prayer is for. Some people view God as some sort of celestial waiter who, when we snap our fingers, should jump to fulfill our requests immediately. When he doesn't do what we want, we get either angry and leave him...or we get discouraged and leave him, because we feel worthless. If that is our attitude then we do not know God at all.

Others see prayer as a means to do something when they can do nothing else. It makes them feel less helpless if they bring God into the picture to provide what they cannot. That can be a comfort, especially when we know that he aware of all things. But we also know why there is so much suffering in the world. (1 John 5:19) God allows this for very good reasons.

Does the fact that miracles do not happen when we pray, mean that God is not listening or that he doesn't care?
Psalm 65:2 calls God "the hearer of prayer"....so he is listening.

Or is prayer something very different to that?
The various Hebrew and Greek words relating to prayer convey such ideas as to ask, make request, petition, entreat, supplicate, plead, beseech, beg, implore favor, seek, inquire of, as well as to praise, thank, and bless.

We can do that to humans....but we don't always get what we ask for.

With God, we don't always get what we ask for either......why? It has something to do with our relationship with him.
The apostle Paul who had the ability to heal others, asked God three times to remove the problem he called “a thorn in the flesh.” God’s answer was no. (2 Corinthians 12:7-9) But Paul did not lose his appreciation for the gift of prayer....he kept right on going in God’s service. It was he who wrote: “Be persevering in prayer.” (Colossians 4:2) Why the need to persevere? We tell God that we are depending on him, rather than on ourselves.

So “keep on asking, . . . keep on seeking, and . . . keep on knocking.” as Jesus said. (Matthew 7:7) He prayed, and he was the son of God.

Yet if prayer was deemed to be sinful behavior, people would leave Christianity out of boredom, and thus the inventors of Christianity decided that prayer should be allowed, even though it is technically irreconcilable with the nature of the Christian god.

Utter nonsense. As one who has had prayers continually answered, often in ways I did not expect, I can vouch for the fact that God can sometimes say "no"...and other times he waits for the right circumstances to act. Patience is required and it shows our reliance on God to act as he wills, not as we expect.

That is how I see it.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
In Human, All Too Human: A Book for Free Spirits, Nietzsche states:

"On two hypotheses alone is there any sense in prayer, that not quite extinct custom of olden times. It would have to be possible either to fix or alter the will of the godhead, and the devotee would have to know best himself what he needs and should really desire. Both hypotheses, axiomatic and traditional in all other religions, are denied by Christianity. If Christianity nevertheless maintained prayer side by side with its belief in the all-wise and all-provident divine reason (a belief that makes prayer really senseless and even blasphemous), it showed here once more its admirable “wisdom of the serpent.” For an outspoken command, “Thou shalt not pray,” would have led Christians by way of boredom to the denial of Christianity. In the Christian ora et labora ora plays the rôle of pleasure. Without ora what could those unlucky saints who renounced labora have done? But to have a chat with God, to ask him for all kinds of pleasant things, to feel a slight amusement at one's own folly in still having any wishes at all, in spite of so excellent a father—all that was an admirable invention for saints."

I think he makes an excellent point. If God is all-powerful and his will is unalterable, then prayer should be considered futile, and even considered to be blasphemy, as praying to God would imply the belief that God's will can be influenced and changed by the human will, which would directly contradict the teachings of Christianity. Yet if prayer was deemed to be sinful behavior, people would leave Christianity out of boredom, and thus the inventors of Christianity decided that prayer should be allowed, even though it is technically irreconcilable with the nature of the Christian god.
You assume, along with your philosopher, that prayer is solely asking God to do certain things, it is not.

You assume, along with your philosopher, that God is omniscient, that is he knows all things, and thus all things he knows are his divine will. God, as described in the Bible, and He , either by nature or design does not know that which hasn´t occurred. ( the Open View of God).

Your philosoper wound up as crazy as a s**thouse rat in an insane asylum. I wish a better end for you
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Ok, so you were referring to the hypotheses in the quote. Since you used the singular "hypothesis" I was confused. In any case, what do you think is wrong with the hypotheses, and why do you think they are self-refuting?

I thought I did... but let me expound on it.

It would have to be possible either to fix or alter the will of the godhead

Is that what prayer is about... to change God's will? I thought Jesus said "Thy will be done" and not "Change God's will"

Prayer is about establishing God's will and not "change His will". There are also many other types of prayers such as a prayer of thanksgiving, prayer of consecration, intercessory prayer and more.

None is "changing God's will".
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
If God is all-powerful and his will is unalterable, then prayer should be considered futile, and even considered to be blasphemy, as praying to God would imply the belief that God's will can be influenced and changed by the human will, which would directly contradict the teachings of Christianity.
You confuse prayer with magic. Magic is the attempt to manipulate one's will upon nature though preternatural means. Prayer on the other hand is the exact opposite. Prayer is an act of submission to a will greater than one's own. For a Christian, true prayer implies the renunciation of one's own will for God's.

Prayer is willed by God as the means by which He is approached. It is obligation precisely because God commands that He be sought, adored and implored for help. We don't manipulate God though prayer, we seek his friendship and help and thereby follow what He Himself has commanded.

Yet if prayer was deemed to be sinful behavior, people would leave Christianity out of boredom, and thus the inventors of Christianity decided that prayer should be allowed, even though it is technically irreconcilable with the nature of the Christian god.
Prayer is eminently reconcilable with the nature of God. Indeed, it would be unfitting were He not to require it. As Blaise Pascal so eloquently puts it.

It is not in this manner that He has willed to appear in His advent of mercy, because, as so many make themselves unworthy of His mercy, He has willed to leave them in the loss of the good which they do not want. It was not then right that He should appear in a manner manifestly divine, and completely capable of convincing all men; but it was also not right that He should come in so hidden a manner that He could not be known by those who should sincerely seek Him. He has willed to make Himself quite recognizable by those; and thus, willing to appear openly to those who seek Him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from Him with all their heart, He so regulates the knowledge of Himself that He has given signs of Himself, visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who seek Him not. There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition."

Prayer is a gift and a command from God. It is the means by which He has willed to be sought. And those who genuinely seek Him will find Him to the degree that they really want Him. Those who deep down, do not really want to find God, will never find Him at all, neither now or in eternity.
 
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Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I thought I did... but let me expound on it.





Prayer is about establishing God's will and not "change His will". There are also many other types of prayers such as a prayer of thanksgiving, prayer of consecration, intercessory prayer and more.

None is "changing God's will".

Yet you claim that prayers for healing lead to healing, implying that a lack of prayer would lead God to decide against healing a person. Thus, whether you realize it or not, your belief in the "effectiveness" of prayer to accomplish certain ends implies that the ends would not be accomplished without prayer, meaning that God's actions change depending on whether or not prayer occurs, which logically implies a belief that people influence God's actions via prayer.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...I think he makes an excellent point. If God is all-powerful and his will is unalterable, then prayer should be considered futile, and even considered to be blasphemy, as praying to God would imply the belief that God's will can be influenced and changed by the human will, which would directly contradict the teachings of Christianity....

I think that is actually quite stupid and wrong idea. It is possible that God wants that people ask Him to do certain things. I believe He knows things before they happen, but I think this way is for people, not for God.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yet you claim that prayers for healing lead to healing,
Yes I do.

implying that a lack of prayer would lead God to decide against healing a person.

False assumption or false hypothesis. No more than if I were to say it this way:

1) You claim that you have a checkbook and that you have to go to the bank to get money out.
2) Implying that a lack of going to the bank leads the teller against giving you money.

No... the money is already yours. The Bank would be happy to give you your money. The issue is that you have a part to play in getting your money that are already yours and there is a process for them to give what is yours.

Healing is already yours. You just have to understand the process. God already wants you healed, has already purchased healing, you can get it any time. But there is a process that you have to do to receive it.

Thus, whether you realize it or not, your belief in the "effectiveness" of prayer to accomplish certain ends implies that the ends would not be accomplished without prayer, meaning that God's actions change depending on whether or not prayer occurs, which logically implies a belief that people influence God's actions via prayer.
Thus, this conclusion is irrelevant. God's actions has never changed and His desire to heal people is always there.

Look to man for the problem and not to God. :)
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
False assumption or false hypothesis. No more than if I were to say it this way:

1) You claim that you have a checkbook and that you have to go to the bank to get money out.
2) Implying that a lack of going to the bank leads the teller against giving you money.

No... the money is already yours. The Bank would be happy to give you your money. The issue is that you have a part to play in getting your money that are already yours and there is a process for them to give what is yours.

Healing is already yours. You just have to understand the process. God already wants you healed, has already purchased healing, you can get it any time. But there is a process that you have to do to receive it.

Why would God not heal a person who doesn't ask to be healed, yet wants to be healed? Why should God's healing power be contingent upon the faith of the person involved? As far as I can see, you are holding the position that God's actions depend on the actions of people (prayer vs. no prayer, or faith vs. lack of faith) and thus a person's prayers or lack of prayers impact whether God heals them or not, implying a belief that God's actions (or decisions) are changeable depending on what a person does. So, you are holding the position that people's actions can alter God's actions.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Why would God not heal a person who doesn't ask to be healed, yet wants to be healed? Why should God's healing power be contingent upon the faith of the person involved? As far as I can see, you are holding the position that God's actions depend on the actions of people (prayer vs. no prayer, or faith vs. lack of faith) and thus a person's prayers or lack of prayers impact whether God heals them or not, implying a belief that God's actions (or decisions) are changeable depending on what a person does. So, you are holding the position that people's actions can alter God's actions.
God´s will can never be changed. Prayer is always made within the framework of Gods will. Peoples actions, i.e,. prayer, doesn´t change Gods will, it allows us to get a much deeper view of our own wills, desires, and relationship to God.

CS Lewis said, ¨ I don´t know if prayer changes God, but I know it changes me¨.

God knows what is important to us by our prayers, we learn what is important to him by his response, and He always responds.

When I had no blood pressure, and was seconds from death, I prayed that I not die, but also that whatever God wanted was most important to me.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Why would God not heal a person who doesn't ask to be healed, yet wants to be healed?
I don't understand why you ignored the answer with the bank analogy.

But, basically, God gave man free will. Why does man smoke when it causes cancer? Free will. Why does man eat a bunch of junk food when it will ultimately destroy his body? Free will.

God wants everybody healed. Thankfully, if His desire for healing, He has given wisdom through science for man to still get healed.

Why should God's healing power be contingent upon the faith of the person involved?

Same reason you treat the mind suffering from worry by taking antibiotics. Or you don't treat the body suffering from a virus with psychology. Faith is a spiritual force created by God and it must be used to access the spiritual.

As far as I can see, you are holding the position that God's actions depend on the actions of people (prayer vs. no prayer, or faith vs. lack of faith) and thus a person's prayers or lack of prayers impact whether God heals them or not, implying a belief that God's actions (or decisions) are changeable depending on what a person does. So, you are holding the position that people's actions can alter God's actions.

No.

God has already healed every disease and that is unchangeable. Faith accesses what God has already done and makes it one's own. Faith activates the blood covenant. If you have an insurance policy for car damages, it remains inactive (though it is paid for, monies are available etc) until you activate it. The insurance policy doesn't change... you just have to activate it.
 
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