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Crossbreed atheism with spirituality

ecco

Veteran Member
You cannot dictate me. You talk about what you don’t understand from the post.
"DICTATE"? All I ask is that, when you make assertions, you should answer questions related to those assertions. Pointing to elsewhere is just lazy ducking and dodging.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Can a created intelligence determine the truth of its creation? IMO, the mythic woo is to consider as fact the HYPOTHESIS that a complex electro-chemical process gives rise to identity/intelligence and that intelligence can understand its own creation.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Can a created intelligence determine the truth of its creation? IMO, the mythic woo is to consider as fact the HYPOTHESIS that a complex electro-chemical process gives rise to identity/intelligence and that intelligence can understand its own creation.
Well, your "O" is just that, your opinion. When you get your advanced degree in neurobiology, then, perhaps, your "O" will be worthy of consideration.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Logic is not one of your strong points. How did you get from the first sentence to the second one?

In order for it to be "thus obviously" you have to show that western philosophy is based on nihilistic thought processes and that western theists do not adhere to nihilistic thought processes.

Nihilism deals with the consideration of all abstract values and ideals, of God, gods, deities, values and virtues as essentially superficial as they are all abstractly contrived and ultimately baseless.
Obviously this corresponds more to atheistic thought processes rather than theistic thought processes.

Also it is a fact that nihilism was and still continues to be one of the most popular philosophies in the west with a major impact around the world, and with existentialism at present. These two philosophies have a great influence in the west, and imo, it is like children with a live gun or grenade. Nihilism and existentialism are just lopsided micro perspectives on life used as context in general western thinking, because of lack of a balanced macro-perspective which western philosophy and civilization, on account of its recent origin, has not yet attained yet.

Nietzche, who stated 'God is dead', is associated with both nihilism and existentialism, and is still one of the most popular philosophers in the west. Nihilism, as stated earlier, shaped the fascist philosophies as well, and along with existentialism continues to influence the culture, art and way of thinking in the west as shown by its themes reflected in movies, literature, music and art.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Nihilism deals with the consideration of all abstract values and ideals, of God, gods, deities, values and virtues as essentially superficial as they are all abstractly contrived and ultimately baseless.
Obviously this corresponds more to atheistic thought processes rather than theistic thought processes.

Obviously this corresponds more to realistic thought processes rather than supernatural thought processes.

Also it is a fact that nihilism was and still continues to be one of the most popular philosophies in the west with a major impact around the world,

If atheism equates to nihilism and nihilism equates to atheism, and atheists are in a vast minority, how can nihilism have a major impact around the world?


Nietzche, who stated 'God is dead', is associated with both nihilism and existentialism, and is still one of the most popular philosophers in the west. Nihilism, as stated earlier, shaped the fascist philosophies as well, and along with existentialism continues to influence the culture, art and way of thinking in the west as shown by its themes reflected in movies, literature, music and art.
So you really believe that Nietzsche still influences many people in the West. Perhaps you can provide some examples of themes in major motion pictures heavily influenced by Nietzsche.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Authors suggest:

There is case that aggressive strand of atheism: in the Soviet case, Khrushchev-era atheist propaganda and in the contemporary Western case, the “New Atheism” had been/is a factor in giving rise to atheist spirituality.

There is recognition in some that opposition to something or even factors that are often associated with atheism (such as rationality, naturalism, science, criticism of religion) do not necessarily provide a deeper meaningfulness or purpose in life. Instead, failing to produce a positive alternative for religion in combination with the aggressive rhetoric results in a bad reputation for atheism.

Secularism and Nonreligion

Does any atheist agree?
Believing in God would solve that problem.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Obviously this corresponds more to realistic thought processes rather than supernatural thought processes.

So you are stating nihilism is tantamount to realistic thinking then ! This is the problem. This is a recipe for anarchy and chaos.

The nihilists created the second world war and most probably the third world war as well, which will most possibly be the end of the young western civilization due to its foolishness and fickleness and inability to learn in terms of wisdom rather than mere knowledge.


If atheism equates to nihilism and nihilism equates to atheism, and atheists are in a vast minority, how can nihilism have a major impact around the world?

I equate nihilism with atheism to some extent, because if God can be taken out of the equation, you can also take values and virtues as well.

This does not necessarily has to be the case with secular humanism and non-theistic religions where there is still a code of virtuous conduct or value systems to be adhered to.

Nazism and communism, which have a major element of nihilism ingrained in them, were able to kill millions in concentration camps due to this rejection of values, especially human values.


So you really believe that Nietzsche still influences many people in the West. Perhaps you can provide some examples of themes in major motion pictures heavily influenced by Nietzsche.

Lol.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The nihilists created the second world war

Funny. I thought it was the oil-starved Japanese and the depressed Germans who got enthralled with a loud-mouthed narcissist who promised them everything and used the teachings of Protestant Leader Martin Luther to eliminate Jews.

... its foolishness and fickleness and inability to learn in terms of wisdom rather than mere knowledge.
Whose wisdom?



I equate nihilism with atheism to some extent, because if God can be taken out of the equation, you can also take values and virtues as well.
What God-given values and virtues? The virtuousness of owning and beating slaves? The virtuousness of handing young virgins to victorious armies?

ni·hil·ism
/ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm/
noun
  1. the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.
Atheists, knowing there is no "hereafter" tend to put a lot of meaning into their one and only lives. Many theists believe this life is just a placeholder for the wonderous afterlife they will someday have.

Nazism and communism, which have a major element of nihilism ingrained in them, were able to kill millions in concentration camps due to this rejection of values, especially human values.
If you are ignorant of the fact that it was Christian Germans that put Jewish Germans into concentration camps, then I suggest you study some history.


So you really believe that Nietzsche still influences many people in the West. Perhaps you can provide some examples of themes in major motion pictures heavily influenced by Nietzsche.

Why Lol? You made the assertion, can't you support it?
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Funny. I thought it was the oil-starved Japanese and the depressed Germans who got enthralled with a loud-mouthed narcissist who promised them everything and used the teachings of Protestant Leader Martin Luther to eliminate Jews.

How innocent ! :)



What God-given values and virtues? The virtuousness of owning and beating slaves? The virtuousness of handing young virgins to victorious armies?

ni·hil·ism
/ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm/
noun
  1. the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.
Atheists, knowing there is no "hereafter" tend to put a lot of meaning into their one and only lives. Many theists believe this life is just a placeholder for the wonderous afterlife they will someday have.


If you are ignorant of the fact that it was Christian Germans that put Jewish Germans into concentration camps, then I suggest you study some history.

You just don't understand history. So-called christian germans did not go to all that trouble of installing concentration camps, human experimentation trials and gas chambers becoz Martin Luther some centuries back hated jews.

Why Lol? You made the assertion, can't you support it?

I am not interested in corrupting your innocence and later get blamed for it.:D
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You just don't understand history. So-called christian germans did not go to all that trouble of installing concentration camps, human experimentation trials and gas chambers becoz Martin Luther some centuries back hated jews.
You really do need to study and understand history.
I am not interested in corrupting your innocence and later get blamed for it.:D
So, you are the type of person who posts BS and when called on to support it, doesn't. Because he can't. Instead, you make some silly comment complete with embarrassed smiley face.

Your kind is rampant on this forum.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
You really do need to study and understand history.

Nazis killing millions of Jews, gypsies, handicapped because of protestant leader Martin Luther's criticism of Jews few centuries back. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

You still have a lot to learn.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Nazis killing millions of Jews, gypsies, handicapped because of protestant leader Martin Luther's criticism of Jews few centuries back. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

You still have a lot to learn.

Your need to post a smiley face tells all. People often smile inappropriately in person when then know they are in over their heads and are therefore embarrassed. On-line, they paste smileys.

How to Avoid Smiling at Inappropriate Times
How to Avoid Smiling at Inappropriate Times
Co-authored by Paul Chernyak, LPC
Updated: March 28, 2019

There are many reasons that people smile or laugh. Usually, people smile because they feel happy or comfortable. However, sometimes they smile when it's actually inappropriate. This is usually caused by nervousness and not knowing how to respond in a given moment.


The Nazis Exploited Martin Luther’s Legacy. This Berlin Exhibit Highlights How.
The Nazis Exploited Martin Luther’s Legacy. This Berlin Exhibit Highlights How.
By Emily McFarlan Miller, Tom Heneghan 10-20-2017
Print
webrns-reformation-nazis5-20171019-771x578.jpg

Campaigning outside a Berlin church for elections on July 23, 1933. The banner says “Vote for List 1, German Christians.” Image via RNS/Wikimedia Commons.
Martin Luther is such a towering figure in German history that it’s no surprise Adolf Hitler’s Third Reich exploited his name whenever it could.

Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation
Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation

Daphne M. Olsen, Rollins CollegeFollow
Date of Award 2012
Thesis Type Open Access
Degree Name Master of Liberal Studies

Abstract
Two of the most notoriously unshakable Anti-Semitics were the Protestant reformer Martin Luther and German Chancellor-turned dictator Adolf Hitler.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Your need to post a smiley face tells all. People often smile inappropriately in person when then know they are in over their heads and are therefore embarrassed. On-line, they paste smileys.

How to Avoid Smiling at Inappropriate Times
How to Avoid Smiling at Inappropriate Times
Co-authored by Paul Chernyak, LPC
Updated: March 28, 2019

There are many reasons that people smile or laugh. Usually, people smile because they feel happy or comfortable. However, sometimes they smile when it's actually inappropriate. This is usually caused by nervousness and not knowing how to respond in a given moment..

Thanx so much for ur concern. :)

Victor Borge — 'A smile is the shortest distance between two people.'



The Nazis Exploited Martin Luther’s Legacy. This Berlin Exhibit Highlights How.
The Nazis Exploited Martin Luther’s Legacy. This Berlin Exhibit Highlights How.
By Emily McFarlan Miller, Tom Heneghan 10-20-2017
Print
webrns-reformation-nazis5-20171019-771x578.jpg

Campaigning outside a Berlin church for elections on July 23, 1933. The banner says “Vote for List 1, German Christians.” Image via RNS/Wikimedia Commons.
Martin Luther is such a towering figure in German history that it’s no surprise Adolf Hitler’s Third Reich exploited his name whenever it could.

Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation
Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation

Daphne M. Olsen, Rollins CollegeFollow
Date of Award 2012
Thesis Type Open Access
Degree Name Master of Liberal Studies

Abstract
Two of the most notoriously unshakable Anti-Semitics were the Protestant reformer Martin Luther and German Chancellor-turned dictator Adolf Hitler.

The Nazis exploited Martin Luther's legacy as part of their propaganda campaign. They were not inspired by it.

Martin Luther had religious prejudices against the Jews, which evaporated instantly if they converted to protestantism and became christians themselves.

Luther expressed an anti-Judaic rather than a racist anti-semitic view.

Martin Luther and antisemitism - Wikipedia

The Nazis did not have religious but racial prejudices against the Jews. The Jew or black or gypsy or handicapped could convert to protestantism and raise slogans praising Hitler incessantly, but that will not reduce the animosity of the Nazis to them one bit.

This is why I stated earlier that your knowledge of history has glaring holes and you need to educate yourself properly before posting here.:)
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The Nazis exploited Martin Luther's legacy as part of their propaganda campaign. They were not inspired by it.

That's not what you originally implied:
Nazis killing millions of Jews, gypsies, handicapped because of protestant leader Martin Luther's criticism of Jews few centuries back. Yeah, right.
So, you just went from being completely wrong to being partially right.

Martin Luther had religious prejudices against the Jews, which evaporated instantly if they converted to protestantism and became christians themselves.
Are you trying to be funny? That's like saying that Conserative Christians will embrace homosexuals as soon as those homosexuals become heterosexuals. Those are wonderful choices indeed. In any case, later in life he was no longer a fan of conversions:

Martin Luther and antisemitism - Wikipedia
On the Jews and Their Lies he deplores Christendom's failure to expel them.[1]Moreover, he proposed "What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews":[1]

  • "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
  • "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
  • "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
  • "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
Luther expressed an anti-Judaic rather than a racist anti-semitic view.

Martin Luther and antisemitism - Wikipedia
Do you expect me to read the entire article? Please excerpt those portions that you suppose support your argument.

Were you thinking about a few sentences that were rebutted with...
Ronald Berger writes that Luther is credited with "Germanizing the Christian critique of Judaism and establishing anti-Semitism as a key element of German culture and national identity."[56] Paul Rose argues that he caused a "hysterical and demonizing mentality" about Jews to enter German thought and discourse, a mentality that might otherwise have been absent.[57]
Alternatively, you can post some of Luther's own comments to support your argument. Or, you could post an excerpt from your linked article that you thinks supports your comments. When you don't, we'll just have another example of your lack of credibility.




The Nazis did not have religious but racial prejudices against the Jews. The Jew or black or gypsy or handicapped could convert to protestantism and raise slogans praising Hitler incessantly, but that will not reduce the animosity of the Nazis to them one bit.

Where does racial prejudice come from? Much comes from religious prejudice. Even the racial prejudice against blacks stems from the Bible.
Even today, many Christians blame Jews for killing Christ.

The 1930s Christian Germans, primarily Catholic, by the way, knew the ethnicity of the people who lived among them. They would have recognized insincere changes

This is why I stated earlier that your knowledge of history has glaring holes and you need to educate yourself properly before posting here.:)

That's funny. Everything I post, I can and have supported with documented facts. I have been consistent in my comments. You have changed from your original assertion and even then you got things wrong.

I have provided support for my arguments from various different sources. You have provided none.
You have been unable to show where anything I posted is incorrect. The only thing you have done is post your unsupported opinion followed by a smiley face indicating that you know that you are continuing to embarrass yourself.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Are you trying to be funny? That's like saying that Conserative Christians will embrace homosexuals as soon as those homosexuals become heterosexuals.

Homosexuals becomeing heterosexuals may or may not be possible. But Jews can be christians, and many have become one.

If given ten million dollars, mansion, a ferrari and a copter, even I would convert to christianity. :D

Those are wonderful choices indeed. In any case, later in life he was no longer a fan of conversions:

Martin Luther and antisemitism - Wikipedia
On the Jews and Their Lies he deplores Christendom's failure to expel them.[1]Moreover, he proposed "What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews":[1]

  • "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
  • "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
  • "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
  • "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"

There is nothing here in these religious prejudices that suggests that Martin Luther would still harbor hatred for Jews who converted to christianity.



Were you thinking about a few sentences that were rebutted with...
Ronald Berger writes that Luther is credited with "Germanizing the Christian critique of Judaism and establishing anti-Semitism as a key element of German culture and national identity."[56] Paul Rose argues that he caused a "hysterical and demonizing mentality" about Jews to enter German thought and discourse, a mentality that might otherwise have been absent.[57]
Alternatively, you can post some of Luther's own comments to support your argument. Or, you could post an excerpt from your linked article that you thinks supports your comments. When you don't, we'll just have another example of your lack of credibility.


Again, there is nothing here in these religious prejudices that suggests that Martin Luther would still harbor hatred for Jews who converted to christianity.


Where does racial prejudice come from? Much comes from religious prejudice. Even the racial prejudice against blacks stems from the Bible.
Even today, many Christians blame Jews for killing Christ.

Then why did Hitler not order the conversion of all jews to christianity instead of putting them up in expensive concentration camps , gassing them and so on ! What about the handicapped as well !




That's funny. Everything I post, I can and have supported with documented facts.

You have put some documented facts, but you are unable to read or interpret them properly. It can be due to wilful dishonesty or maybe for the sake of propaganda or becoz of overall ignorance.

I have nothing against atheism, only that atheists should be guided by a balanced value system that promote harmony and overall progress, rather than be guided by nihilistic/existentialist and other similar philosophies or thought processes which can be regressive and destructive in the long run.


Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Everything I post, I can and have supported with documented facts. I have been consistent in my comments. You have changed from your original assertion and even then you got things wrong.
You have put some documented facts,
You have not put up any documented facts.

So, it's my commentary backed by documented facts compared to your unsupported opinions.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
You have not put up any documented facts.

So, it's my commentary backed by documented facts compared to your unsupported opinions.

I have only asserted here that nihilism and existentialism are bad news, and in the last century, nihilistic elements in nazism and communism spawned the concentration camps and genocides which killed millions that later horrified the world. There is obviously no need for documented proofs to be put here in this regard as most people are aware of it with films, documentaries being constantly made and holocaust anniversaries remembered each year.

You on the other hand have not put here any conclusive documented proofs still that prove that Martin Luther's anti-semitism was racial as well and not merely religious, similar to the Nazis.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I have only asserted here that nihilism and existentialism are bad news, and in the last century, nihilistic elements in nazism and communism spawned the concentration camps and genocides which killed millions that later horrified the world. There is obviously no need for documented proofs to be put here in this regard as most people are aware of it with films, documentaries being constantly made and holocaust anniversaries remembered each year.

You on the other hand have not put here any conclusive documented proofs still that prove that Martin Luther's anti-semitism was racial as well and not merely religious, similar to the Nazis.
You have not put up any documented facts.

So, it's my commentary backed by documented facts compared to your unsupported opinions.


ETA: Bye Bye
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member

Same here. :)

Do contemplate on my posts though, especially on the need for atheists to understand the shortcomings of western philosophy and the need to embrace a value system that promotes harmony rather than active nihilism.
 
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