Should Women's Homeless Shelters Ban Trans Identified Males?

Father Heathen said:

People always talk about MtF but never FtM. I imagine women would have an even bigger flipout over transmales entering women's shelters or restrooms despite having been born female.

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Dunno it never bothered me to share a bathroom. We have a gender neutral bathroom at my job, so many of times I'd be dropping a duece and a female co-worker would come into to use the bathroom (RIP God rest her soul), and never had an issue other than offended nostrils.

The issue does seem to be women's bathrooms and women's shelters though. There was a story not to long ago about man and his children who was being physically/mentally abused by the wife/mother. He grabbed his kids and took them to a battered women's shelter because he had nowhere else to go, and they refused him.

Perhaps something to keep an eye on, maybe nothing.

Subduction Zone said:

Pretty straightforward. It obviously includes both cis males and trans females. And no, trans women are neither not being singled out. This is a problem that we do not have all of the answers to yet. A dogmatic approach from either extreme is not the answer.

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What I mean is that we have no barometer for genetic testing based on sight. Is a person who looks like a woman going to trigger this effect in abused cis women? Would a person who looks like a man but is female at birth? How about intersex? How about non trans women who are very masculine but not men (such as the woman in the article earlier)?
Furthermore, what about women who were abused by other women and have triggers with other women?
This is why it seems like transwomen are being singled out. And it means transwomen will be displaced because where are they supposed to go, then? To men's shelters? Transwomen aren't men and may be no more comfortable with it than ciswomen would be.

I agree that there shouldn't be a dogmatic approach to this problem. But I think policy for excluding transwomen, or even 'nonpassing' transwomen, because someone might be uncomfortable, even severely so, is a bit dogmatic from the getgo.

ImmortalFlame said:

But, a trans female isn't male. They're female.

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Ditto.

Stanyon said:

In a perfect world everyone would have a safe place to go but reality dictates that someone has to pay the light bill, property taxes, maintain equipment and clean, counseling services, administration etc. Considering all this vs. the very small amount of people it might actually serve, is it worth it and who will pay the bill in the meantime?
Would some local churches, mosques, synagogues, temples etc. oppose helping on religious grounds?

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Trust me on this: It is cheaper than doing nothing. Teach your fellow citizens that the world feels no compassion towards them and it will eventually come back to you or your family in many shapes and forms.

There is hardly anything worse that a society can do than creating individuals with no feeling of belonging, no empathy and with nothing to lose.

ImmortalFlame said:

Isn't that exactly what you're doing when you say that they shouldn't accept trans women? And isn't that exactly what the bill proposed in the OP is intending to do?


But you DO believe it's wrong for them to admit men to a women's homeless shelter, and you're okay with the concept of homeless shelters specifically FOR women, so you must be able to accept that there is regulation of that to some degree, right? I mean, the very bill proposed in the OP is proposing restrictions on the kind of people homeless shelter staff can admit.

You seem to have completely undermined your own position.

Also, I notice you didn't comment on the images. Why?

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There is no bill. It is a proposal to grant women's shelters the right to turn away biological males who present as females

ADigitalArtist said:

Is it more of a problem, though, than transwomen who suffer staggeringly high ratios of violence, being turned away from aid either for their looks, or their papers? What if they're not comfortable being around men? Kind of a catch 22 imo.

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I believe they have a right to shelter and rest but I don't think it is wise to house them in places where they might not be wanted, where a hostile environment can be formed against them. I totally do not agree placing them in men's shelter out of fear for their safety.

ADigitalArtist said:

What I mean is that we have no barometer for genetic testing based on sight. Is a person who looks like a woman going to trigger this effect in abused cis women? Would a person who looks like a man but is female at birth? How about intersex? How about non trans women who are very masculine but not men (such as the woman in the article earlier)?
Furthermore, what about women who were abused by other women and have triggers with other women?
This is why it seems like transwomen are being singled out. And it means transwomen will be displaced because where are they supposed to go, then? To men's shelters? Transwomen aren't men and may be no more comfortable with it than ciswomen would be.

I agree that there shouldn't be a dogmatic approach to this problem. But I think policy for excluding transwomen, or even 'nonpassing' transwomen, because someone might be uncomfortable, even severely so, is a bit dogmatic from the getgo.

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This is why I said that there needs to be flexibility. I have seen trans-women that make one say "WTF?" There are transwomen that appear to be very very male and could affect the sense of well being of an abused woman. Who do you cater to in extreme situations? I am not transphobic, but I also can see that some women can be threatened by some trans-women even if there is no threat. I too am clearly against a ban on trans people. But this real world is more complex than a written policy can encompass. And I am sure that we agree that Trump's policy is the wrong way to go. I am merely willing to leave the door open for some discretion. I would think that is almost all cases transwomen would be just as acceptable as ciswomen. In fact I am sure that there are some cases where a ciswoman could be denied shelter at times. I have known of some women that are in a violent relationship that keep going back for more. Love can have a very strange effect on some people. If a woman that went to a shelter somehow did something that brought the cause of her troubles to the shelter besides calling the police on her man the shelter might rethink her ability to stay there.

The Reverend Bob said:

I believe they have a right to shelter and rest but I don't think it is wise to house them in places where they might not be wanted, where a hostile environment can be formed against them. I totally do not agree placing them in men's shelter out of fear for their safety.

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So what do you propose? "Separate but equal" housing specifically for transwomen?

ImmortalFlame said:

So you're equating biological sex and gender?

Why are you even starting this discussion if you don't even understand what being transgender means?

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I am not equating sex and gender. You are. I don't believe that trans women are biologically female something which you keep denying because you keep chanting that mantra "transwomen are women" as if it is somehow change that XY into XX. No amount of drugs or hormones or surgery or all the frilly dresses and stereotypical "feminine" behaviors is ever going to change the fact that they are not biological females.

ImmortalFlame said:

Ah, I was misled by the thread title and poll question.

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Sorry about that. I was struggling with the title

Father Heathen said:

People always talk about MtF but never FtM. I imagine women would have an even bigger flipout over transmales entering women's shelters or restrooms despite having been born female.

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Where the hell do you think they shelter trans men? Not in men's shelters out of fear they will be subject to violence and sexually assault. They are sheltered in women's shelters

dianaiad said:

It's sad. However, it's not THAT hard to get properly diagnosed and get on the hormones.

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Some insurance companies won't cover the hormones or surgery. And without the means to transition many transgender suffer gender dysphoria and resulting depression which leads to a whole of issues that need attention.

Subduction Zone said:

This is why I said that there needs to be flexibility. I have seen trans-women that make one say "WTF?" There are transwomen that appear to be very very male and could affect the sense of well being of an abused woman. Who do you cater to in extreme situations? I am not transphobic, but I also can see that some women can be threatened by some trans-women even if there is no threat.

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It seems like we need to have a conversation about trigger warnings vs forced removal of triggers (which is what this seems to be about.) But that might have to wait for another thread. The former is good health practice, the latter is setting yourself up for failure.

I would advise a cis woman who is uncomfortable with a "nonpassing" trans woman the same way I would advise a lesbian who was in an abusive situation and is uncomfortable with women. "We are going to try and help you get through this as best we can, but there are women (cis and trans) here."

I agree that there is a lot of reasons why a shelter might need to turn someone away. I just don't think 'being trans' should ever be one of them. Ditto gay or of a particular nationality or ethnic background or race or religion.

The Reverend Bob said:

Where the hell do you think they shelter trans men? Not in men's shelters out of fear they will be subject to violence and sexually assault. They are sheltered in women's shelters

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So if they can handle transmen, then transwomen shouldn't be an issue.

ADigitalArtist said:

So what do you propose? "Separate but equal" housing specifically for transwomen?

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No. I believe what should be done is the creation of specialized shelters that address the needs of the trans community, shelters that give them access to gender counseling, that can help them transition and provide the mental health needs that are specific to them such as gender dysphoria

Father Heathen said:

So if they can handle transmen, then transwomen shouldn't be an issue.

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It is an issue too.

Father Heathen said:

Are homeless women checking each other's panties for hidden pee-pees in these shelters?

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Some shelters utilize dormitory showers and locker rooms and not all trans women pass or even want too

The Reverend Bob said:

No. I believe what should be done is the creation of specialized shelters that address the needs of the trans community, shelters that give them access to gender counseling, that can help them transition and provide the mental health needs that are specific to them such as gender dysphoria

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Shelters aren't healthcare facilities. Theres no reason shelters can't provide the same sort of access to counseling and support group contacts for trans as they do counseling for physical and mental disabilities, substance abuse, religious support groups, etc etc. That would be more economical than building specialist facilities and would mean trans folk would have more local access.
And you wouldn't be segregating out trans from the rest of the population because some people can't 'deal with them'.

Koldo said:

Trust me on this: It is cheaper than doing nothing. Teach your fellow citizens that the world feels no compassion towards them and it will eventually come back to you or your family in many shapes and forms.

There is hardly anything worse that a society can do than creating individuals with no feeling of belonging, no empathy and with nothing to lose.

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Who is paying the bill in the meantime?

Certainly there are homeless gay men and women that utilize homeless shelters and as such maybe the LGBT community could band together and help support homeless shelters for trans men and women? I'm not buying the whole "if we don't support them they will act out in society" the way I see it people with criminal leanings are going to do it regardless of any law or any support systems.

Father Heathen said:

Because women don't typically have that mentality?

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One question, @Father Heathen .
If they forced you to use the female locker room, would you be unhappy about it?

I guess you wouldn't.
So as for me, I'm happy if I can still use the male locker room.

I am not ashamed of saying I like men....the male body.