Should Women's Homeless Shelters Ban Trans Identified Males?

Homeless shelters could deny transgender people under proposed Trump administration rule

I don't necessarily disagree with the policy because many homeless women have been completely traumatized by males. These women have been sexually exploited by males, sexually assaulted by males and subject to domestic violence mostly by males. They live in fear of their live, many suffering PTSD because of what they have suffered at the hands of males and the very presence of a male can be traumatic for them.

And the other hand trans identified males need to be sheltered too and not in men's shelters where they can be subjected to violence. The only solution I see is to create shelters specifically for them. It is a complicated issue.

The Reverend Bob said:

Homeless shelters could deny transgender people under proposed Trump administration rule

I don't necessarily disagree with the policy because many homeless women have been completely traumatized by males. These women have been sexually exploited by males, sexually assaulted by males and subject to domestic violence mostly by males. They live in fear of their live, many suffering PTSD because of what they have suffered at the hands of males and the very presence of a male can be traumatic for them.

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But, a trans female isn't male. They're female.

I agree with your perspective that women who have been traumatized and /or abused by men in any way whether physically, emotionally, or sexually should not have to be sheltered with men, even those who may identify as female. To prevent further trauma each should have their own shelters.

ImmortalFlame said:

But, a trans female isn't male. They're female.

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Are they of the sex that can produce ova and bear offspring? Do they have penises?

The Reverend Bob said:

Homeless shelters could deny transgender people under proposed Trump administration rule

I don't necessarily disagree with the policy because many homeless women have been completely traumatized by males. These women have been sexually exploited by males, sexually assaulted by males and subject to domestic violence mostly by males. They live in fear of their live, many suffering PTSD because of what they have suffered at the hands of males and the very presence of a male can be traumatic for them.

And the other hand trans identified males need to be sheltered too and not in men's shelters where they can be subjected to violence. The only solution I see is to create shelters specifically for them. It is a complicated issue.

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Transgender individuals are the victims of violent crimes at a terrifyingly high rate. We need to be afraid for them, not of them. These are often the very people who need these shelters the most. There is no legitimate reason for doing this.

fantome profane said:

Transgender individuals are the victims of violent crimes at a terrifyingly high rate. We need to be afraid for them, not of them. These are often the very people who need these shelters the most. There is no legitimate reason for doing this.

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There are documented cases of trans women sexually assaulting biological females

The Reverend Bob said:

Homeless shelters could deny transgender people under proposed Trump administration rule

I don't necessarily disagree with the policy because many homeless women have been completely traumatized by males. These women have been sexually exploited by males, sexually assaulted by males and subject to domestic violence mostly by males. They live in fear of their live, many suffering PTSD because of what they have suffered at the hands of males and the very presence of a male can be traumatic for them.

And the other hand trans identified males need to be sheltered too and not in men's shelters where they can be subjected to violence. The only solution I see is to create shelters specifically for them. It is a complicated issue.

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An extremely complex and complicated issue.

It's a tough call. My first thought was no they shouldn't be banned. Because in a 100% honest society this would work flawlessly. But there are very bad people out there who would take advantage of this rule and pretend to be trans to take advantage of the rule.

Undoubtedly this would lead to rape/violence in what supposed to be a safe place for women and children. Maybe trans women who can verify they have had gender reassignment surgery could be allowed in? That's the only way I could justify it, and protect people from those that would abuse the system. But not all true trans people can afford the surgery. So then we are discriminating against actual trans people. It's almost a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Maybe, the answer is to have trans only shelters? But that presents it's own set of problems for obvious reasons. A trans only shelter runs the risk of being targeted by hate groups and endangering trans people. And also runs the risk of someone pretending to be trans to be allowed in to harm folks.

Honestly after thinking about it. I think trans women should be allowed in womens shelters. We take our chances and if nothing bad happens then we good. But if violence occurs because some people pretended to be trans to take advantage of the rule, then that's something we had ALL better be ready to live with.

ImmortalFlame said:

But, a trans female isn't male. They're female.

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No, they're not.

Personally, I couldn't care less about someone who's gender is ambiguous following me into a bathroom, or a straight up female or whatever. I am not, nor ever have been, in danger from a female. Or a gender complex person of any kind.

I'm kind of a macho poophead. And gay to boot.

But I understand quite well why women don't have that attitude. Men are far more of a danger to them than me. So, I understand perfectly why women have, sometimes, an irrational fear of men.

And that includes men who are "now" women. I wouldn't ever deprive trans women of basic rights. But that isn't the same as giving them the rights to upset women in a shelter. Those women already have enough to deal with.
Tom

The Reverend Bob said:

There are documented cases of trans women sexually assaulting biological females

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There's documented cases of cis women assaulting other cis women too. What's your point?

I'm a cis woman who has survived sexual assault and I see no reason to attach to my abuse the behavior of stigmatizing others who need help for the same reason I do.
I'm not a big fan of sex segregation facilities anyway. And even less of a fan of gender segregated facilities.

The Reverend Bob said:

Are they of the sex that can produce ova and bear offspring? Do they have penises?

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Sex does not equal gender, and sex characteristics aren't always a binary either. There are xy individuals who have vagina naturally, and visa versa. Being unable to produce ova offspring doesn't disqualify women from being women, either.

ADigitalArtist said:

There's documented cases of cis women assaulting other cis women too. What's your point?

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That women who have been assaulted by men have a very good reason to want males to go somewhere else.
And the staff of shelters have reasons to send the males elsewhere as well.

It's not like there aren't any shelters for homeless men. It's the majority of them.
Tom

As a MtF person I would love to be in a male dormitory...

I mean...a male locker room is Heaven to me...


So I don't understand those MtF who don't feel the same

ADigitalArtist said:

Sex does not equal gender, and sex characteristics aren't always a binary either. There are xy individuals who have vagina naturally, and visa versa. Being unable to produce ova offspring doesn't disqualify women from being women, either.

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I didn't say "all members of female sex produce ova" I said "of the sex that can produce ova", post-menopausal and infertile women are still female.

ADigitalArtist said:

Sex does not equal gender, and sex characteristics aren't always a binary either. There are xy individuals who have vagina naturally, and visa versa. Being unable to produce ova offspring doesn't disqualify women from being women, either.

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False equivalence. Being intersex and transgender are two different things.

ADigitalArtist said:

I'm a cis woman who has survived sexual assault and I see no reason to attach to my abuse the behavior of stigmatizing others who need help for the same reason I do.

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And that is you. People are different and respond to traumatic event if different ways. Are you going to judge them as weak or something because they didn't respond or cope like you did?

ADigitalArtist said:

'm not a big fan of sex segregation facilities anyway. And even less of a fan of gender segregated facilities.

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So you would have men and women jailed and imprisoned together?

columbus said:

That women who have been assaulted by men have a very good reason to want males to go somewhere else.
And the staff of shelters have reasons to send the males elsewhere as well.

It's not like there aren't any shelters for homeless men. It's the majority of them.
Tom

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Like I said, I'm not a fan of sex or gender segregation due to trauma. Wouldn't be if it were a homosexual person who had a traumatic experience in same sex relationship either.

The Reverend Bob said:

I didn't say "all members of female sex produce ova" I said "of the sex that can produce ova", post-menopausal and infertile women are still female.

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Which just goes to show that being able to produce ova or being fertile has nothing to do with being female.

The Reverend Bob said:

False equivalence. Being intersex and transgender are two different things.

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Nobody said they weren't. Being female sex and female gender are also two different things with quite a lot of gray area between

ADigitalArtist said:

Which just goes to show that being able to produce ova or being fertile has nothing to do with being female.

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Ok. What is a female then? What does a female look like? How does a female behave? How does a female dress? How do females emote?

The Reverend Bob said:

And that is you. People are different and respond to traumatic event if different ways. Are you going to judge them as weak or something because they didn't respond or cope like you did?

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Having an unhealthy generalized fear and anger after trauma has nothing to do with weakness. But it's not a personal judgement to say that treating all people who share a characteristic of your assaulted as potentially dangerous and an object of fear is not healthy.

So you would have men and women jailed and imprisoned together?

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Yes, along with many, many other changes to our prison systems to discourage the sexual assault which happens regardless of the sex or gender of the assaulted.

ADigitalArtist said:

Being female sex and female gender are also two different things

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Yes, they are two different things; sex is biological and gender is a social construct. Please don't go into the "there are blue brains and there are pink brains and sometimes people are born with a pink brain inside a blue body" argument.