Science - Who Needs It

shunyadragon · May 21, 2019

We Never Know said:
Thinking of using sticks and rocks to use as protection and weapons was technology at its earliest stage.

Still not science.

sayak83 · May 21, 2019

We Never Know said:
While I completely agree. Science is also responsible for millions of deaths.

Number of lives saved by science is significantly greater than the number killed by science. The number of lives saved would be counted in billions (decrease in child and maternal mortality and increased life expectancy) while lives lost would be in millions (from the increased deadliness of wars mostly). I would say live saved to lives lost is about 100:1.

Even in wars, modern medicines that prevent infection from spreading among those injured in war probably saves more lives than the lives lost with the increased use of deadly ammunition. A single cut from a rusty spear would be more deadly in 1000 CE than a non-fatal bullet wound of 21st century.

We Never Know · May 21, 2019

sayak83 said:
Number of lives saved by science is significantly greater than the number killed by science. The number of lives saved would be counted in billions (decrease in child and maternal mortality and increased life expectancy) while lives lost would be in millions (from the increased deadliness of wars mostly). I would say live saved to lives lost is about 100:1.

Even in wars, modern medicines that prevent infection from spreading among those injured in war probably saves more lives than the lives lost with the increased use of deadly ammunition. A single cut from a rusty spear would be more deadly in 1000 CE than a non-fatal bullet wound of 21st century.

Do you realise science and technology in their earliest days were testing and using rocks and sticks as weapons?

shunyadragon · May 21, 2019

We Never Know said:
Do you realise science and technology in their earliest days were testing and using rocks and sticks as weapons?

Using sticks and rocks or anything else as weapons is a human choice to kill or wage war, and science nor technology makes no such choice.

sayak83 · May 21, 2019

We Never Know said:
Do you realise science and technology in their earliest days were testing and using rocks and sticks as weapons?

If you now put every human innovation into the basket of sci-tech then there is nothing to say. I am referring to work done in research centers universities and tech companies of various types where trained people work to develop science and technology.

We Never Know · May 21, 2019

shunyadragon said:
Using sticks and rocks or anything else as weapons is a human choice to kill or wage war, and science nor technology makes no such choice.

Same as the nukes but it's humans that brought on that science and technology and miss used it. I already agreed science, the miss-use of science has caused many deaths.
If you are trying to say humans are a bad species, I agree.

We Never Know · May 21, 2019

sayak83 said:
If you now put every human innovation into the basket of sci-tech then there is nothing to say. I am referring to work done in research centers universities and tech companies of various types where trained people work to develop science and technology.

Are you only trying to look at the good side of science and technology? It has many sides, good and bad; life saving and life taking; creative and destructive; etc.

sayak83 · May 21, 2019

We Never Know said:
Are you only trying to look at the good side of science and technology? It has many sides, good and bad; life saving and life taking; creative and destructive; etc.

I just noted both the good and bad side and estimated the relative weights of each based on lives saved vs lives lost. Even one life lost is bad and unacceptable of course.

shunyadragon · May 21, 2019

We Never Know said:
Same as the nukes but it's humans that brought on that science and technology and miss used it. I already agreed science, the miss-use of science has caused many deaths.
If you are trying to say humans are a bad species, I agree.

No I am not trying to say or describe humans as a bad species. Simply, science is neutral to how it is used. It is like 'hating math,' math could care less.

SkepticThinker · May 22, 2019

nPeace said:
Would that require going into the person's brain and rewiring it? No. That's not my job.
Like I mentioned before, the OP is not hard to understand in the right context, if one reads it without a particular mindset.
A number of persons both on my side and against my views, have commented with an understanding of the point the OP is making.
Before you start, please don't madam... unless you tell me what you understand from the OP.

Nothing as fantastical as that.

Maybe just explain yourself and your mindset when people have questions about your beliefs, instead of just expecting everyone to completely grasp your "mindset" from the get-go. :shrug:

tas8831 · May 22, 2019

nPeace said:
However, science has not, and cannot provide knowledge of the most fundamentally important things in life.
Some have asked: Why did things evolve to form a universe and a planet equipped to sustain life? Science has no answer.

Does ancient middle eastern mythology?

NOPE.

shunyadragon · May 22, 2019

nPeace said:
However, science has not, and cannot provide knowledge of the most fundamentally important things in life.

There are more than thousands of philosophical/theological beliefs as what are the 'fundamentally important things in life,' which one definitively describes the true way? All you can do is assert your true way without objective evidence.

Some have asked: Why did things evolve to form a universe and a planet equipped to sustain life? Science has no answer.

As stated many times before before the questions 'why' are not answered by science, but nonetheless the questions are not consistently answered by the many conflicting philosophical/theological claims to answer the these questions.

science does consistently provides the knowledge of the nature of our physical existence. Religion is unfortunately very inconsistent.

nPeace · May 22, 2019

sayak83 said:
No. That was your point.

Okay. You know better.

nPeace · May 22, 2019

SkepticThinker said:
Nothing as fantastical as that.

Maybe just explain yourself and your mindset when people have questions about your beliefs, instead of just expecting everyone to completely grasp your "mindset" from the get-go.

It's not about my mindset.
I just told someone this.
This is how they responded.
That's a mindset.
I won't try that with those who clearly do not want to listen. Do you think explaining anything makes a difference to such persons?

sayak83 · May 22, 2019

nPeace said:
Okay. You know better.

Yes I do, unfortunately.

nPeace · May 22, 2019

shunyadragon said:
No, not science, it is humans. I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. Albert Einstein

If it is humans, then when it comes to "the many good things", why is it then science. "Oh how good science is"? Is it not humans?

shunyadragon · May 22, 2019

nPeace said:
If it is humans, then when it comes to "the many good things", why is it then science. "Oh how good science is"? Is it not humans?

Humans make the decisions between good and bad. 'Good things or bad things is not science,' Science is simply science.

nPeace · May 23, 2019

shunyadragon said:
Humans make the decisions between good and bad. 'Good things or bad things is not science,' Science is simply science.

People make decisions between good and bad, only when they know what is good and bad.
Some out of ignorance do bad, thinking that it is good.
Science at times is used to do bad in some cases with intent, and in other cases, without intent - ignorant that what seems good is really bad.
Science doesn't work without people.

Therefore it seems to cements the point I made.
If it is people who do good or bad, then it is a good thing to have people with knowledge, and the wisdom to put that knowledge to good use. Rather than people who use that knowledge toward unnecessary pursuits.

TagliatelliMonster · May 24, 2019

nPeace said:
Science has provided some knowledge many find beneficial.

I'ld rephrase that and replace "many" with "all humans".
I don't know a single person that doesn't benefit from scientific progress.

Not even the small primitive tribes living in the amazone.

However, science has not, and cannot provide knowledge of the most fundamentally important things in life.

And what things would those be? And in who's opinion are they the "most fundamentally important things"? Because it doesn't sound as if that would be an objective fact. Rather a subjective opinion.
What is important to you, might not be so important to me and vice versa, it seems to me.

Some have asked: Why did things evolve to form a universe and a planet equipped to sustain life? Science has no answer.

It's also a loaded question. It assumes the question has an answer. It assumes pre-planned purpose and intent and it asks about what that pre-planned purpose/intent is.

This is an unjustified assumption that has yet to be established. Therefor the question is dishonest.

Like asking "why do you hit your wife?"
First you need to actually establish that the wife is in fact being hit. Then you can ask why.

Why do we need science?

Well, at present, I'ld say: to have this conversation.
Overall, to make our life easier, to put it VERY broadly.

Transportation - from the chariot to the Lamborghini
Really? Why? Is there a "Need For speed?

Yes, actually.
Imagine getting food or medicine (that can spoil) from Spain exported to China by chariot.
The oranges will be green fungus by the time they get there.

Medicine
Let's talk about medicine. Perhaps someone can name one medicine that we need.

SERIOUSLY???

Have you ever bothered looking up statistics like life expectancy, infant mortality rates, death of mothers during child birth, etc both before and after the advent of medical science and how they compare?

We have everything we need in the earth. People have for centuries utilized these herbs - not only in their treatment of sicknesses, but also in practice for their overall health, and longevity.

Yes. And the result was a life expectancy of about 30, with an infant mortality through the roof.

Only, everything will be free of man-made chemical pollutants. Sickness will be gone, because its root cause will be gone.

So before the scientific and industrial revolution, people didn't get sick?

Dan Mellis · May 30, 2019

nPeace said:
Science has provided some knowledge many find beneficial.
However, science has not, and cannot provide knowledge of the most fundamentally important things in life.
Some have asked: Why did things evolve to form a universe and a planet equipped to sustain life? Science has no answer.
It is true, we can live without having the answer to this question.
It is also true, we can live without knowing that the earth orbits the sun, rotates around an axis at an angle of 23.5 degrees, at a speed of about 1,000 miles per hour.
How does that affect my hair growth?

Why do we need science?
It tells how you get colors. So? Do I need that to live? Besides about 8% people are color blind, and some can't see at all. I can appreciate color, without knowing how we get it.
True... science does help me to appreciate even more, the awesome nature of the designer of our universe, but I don't need science to know that our creator is awesome.

Okay, you say, but science has done done a lot to fulfill mankind's needs - electronics, transportation, medicine... At this point, I've hit a blank, so perhaps someone can help me fill it.
Electronics - Telephones, cellphones, television, music players, video recorders, computers...
There are people who live without these, and their lives are no less meaningful. We don't need these things to live.

Transportation - from the chariot to the Lamborghini
Really? Why? Is there a "Need For speed? Have we noticed that mankind seems to be unsatisfied with the speeds that man has reached... they seem to want more?
Nowadays, when some get stuck in traffic, they wish they could acquire wings and fly out of there. Where is Superman when you need him?

Medicine
Let's talk about medicine. Perhaps someone can name one medicine that we need.

We have everything we need in the earth. People have for centuries utilized these herbs - not only in their treatment of sicknesses, but also in practice for their overall health, and longevity.

Why do scientist mix these herbs with chemicals?
What really are reportedly cancer causing agents?
What are the contributing factors to many sicknesses, diseases, and body deformities?
Many believe science is responsible to a large extent. So to many, science has done a lot, yes, but a lot we don't need.

The facts show that while greedy rulers and merchant prevent us from getting what we do need from the earth, most science is used to pollute what we need.
So why do we need science?

"But still you use it", some argue.
We use it - not that we have to, but as a temporary convenience.
We also use the temporary polluted air, and food, thanks to science - not that we want to, but we are somewhat forced to.
For the most part, science it seems has played a role in doing more bad than good.

I believe the things we currently use are temporary, and will no longer be here in the near future.
The things we do need, however, like the planet's life-sustaining air, food, plants, etc., I believe these will continue forever. Only, everything will be free of man-made chemical pollutants. Sickness will be gone, because its root cause will be gone.

My point here, though it may appear that way, is not to discredit science as anything but good, because having knowledge of how things work, and using that knowledge with certain advancements, is not bad at all.
However, science can be put to so much good use, for which it is not currently being utilized.

Furthermore, for no good reason, but it seems for the sake of ego, to some, Science is a Sacred Cow
Science is a Sacred Cow is a book written by the chemist Anthony Standen. It was first published in 1950 by E. P. Dutton. It was in print for 40 years. The book argues that some scientists and many teachers of science have "inflated egos" or, in the words of Standen, "a fabulous collective ego, as inflated as a skillfully blown piece of bubble gum". The book was widely reviewed.

Reception
Part of the book's thesis is that the general public and students of science hold the words of scientists in awe even when these are merely "latinized nonsense". According to a March 1950 issue of Time, Standen's concerns are that scientists can be and have been "overbearing," "overpraised," and "overindulged". The book was once praised by one of the great scientists: Albert Einstein. An editorial note in the March 27, 1950, issue of Life magazine introducing several pages of excerpts and a half dozen editorial cartoons from Sacred Cow states "With tongue-in-cheek hyperbole, [Standen] suggests that a group that takes itself so seriously deserves some serious skepticism. Life—without taking all Mr. Standen's funmaking too seriously—thinks he deserves a happy hearing".

Chapter 1 - THEY SAY IT'S WONDERFUL
Excerpt
WHEN a white-robed scientist, momentarily looking away from his microscope or his cyclotron, makes some pronouncement for the general public, he may not be understood, but at least he is certain to be believed. No one ever doubts what is said by a scientist. Statesmen, industrialists, ministers of religion, civic leaders, philosophers, all are questioned and criticized, but scientists -- never. Scientists are exalted beings who stand at the very topmost pinnacle of popular prestige, for they have the monopoly of the formula "It has been scientifically proved . . ." which appears to rule out all possibility of disagreement.

Thus the world is divided into Scientists, who practice the art of infallibility, and non-scientists, sometimes contemptuously called "laymen," who are taken in by it.

So my point is... who needs science.

The samples of this book contain some great expressions, coming from a Chemist. I am interested in getting a copy.
...[con]verted into energy, and the atomic scientists went ahead and did it with the atomic bomb, and what other group of people have done anything so wonderful as that? Science has achieved so many things, and has been right so many times, that it is hard to believe that it can be wrong in anything, particularly for a layman, who does not have enough knowledge of the subject to be able to argue back. He might not even want to argue back, for the claims of science are extremely inviting. The benefits we have received from it are tremendous, all the way from television to penicillin, and there is no reason to suppose that they will stop. Cancer may be cured tomorrow, or the day after, and the nuclear physicists may easily find a way to end all drudgery and usher in the golden age. Mere laymen, their imaginations stupefied by these wonders, are duly humble, and regard the scientists as lofty and impeccable human beings.

"The scientist is a man of integrity and faith who trusts the basic laws of nature and intelligence to lead him into the paths of truth. His loyalty to truth is unquestioned: his capacity for patient and sacrificial inquiry is limited only by his powers of endurance; his devotion to the scientific method is unwavering; his objective is the welfare of mankind; and his discoveries, whether of medicine, mechanics, psychology, or what not, are the free possession of...

Ok, we don't need science. Unless we want to live in a world with basic tools, running water, transport, life expectancy past 40, and an infant mortality rate below 1 in 3.

Remember, germ theory is science. The clothes that you wear? Science. You crossed the street this morning.... did you close your eyes and step out hoping that god would bot let you get hit or did you first consider the evidence and look both ways?

Science isn't a "thing," it's a way of thinking. Furthermore, it's the most reliable way of thinking for finding out what is true. Have scientific developments been detrimental on occasion? Sure. Not as much as religious ideologies though.

Science - Who Needs It

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