Coming To Terms: Religion vs Science

The Reverend Bob · May 22, 2019

Both science and religion can be used to propagate fictitious narratives that are used to mitigate the dread of death and inevitable mass extinction.

I keep telling that we are all going to die and they keep saying things like "God will help us", "Maybe science will find a solution", "Maybe we should pray to God about this", 'Scientists say that the cure for X is around the corner", "At least we will be with God in heaven if that happens", "We won't have to worry about it if we build a spaceship and launch ourselves into space" and many many more things like this. It gives me a headache.

We are all going to die and in the very near future we are all going to die en masse and there isn't anything science or religion can do about it.

Jeremiah Ames · May 22, 2019

Amanaki said:
In my understanding of all religions, they do seek the same truth, but there is used different teaching and techniques to gain the inner wisdom to understand the full truth.
You can look at it as a mountain where there are multiple paths leading to the top. and at the top is the ultimate truth. So each path has its own teacher or God/Buddha/Dao and so forth. For the teachers who them self must have climbed the mountain toward ultimate truth they reach a level of inner wisdom, but non of them reach exactly the same point on the mountain (path of wisdom) So when they do teach the followers, even they would feel they see the ultimate truth, they can only see(understand) up to the level they reached in their cultivation,
Meaning an enlighten being (teacher) can not see what is abovet their own wisdom level, but they do see everything on their level and below.
(this is how i understand the systems of the different religions)

Yes, I must agree with you, in that your comment pertains to those who truly seek the truth, or spiritual wisdom.
My comment was thinking more about the majority of people who don’t even see the mountain.

Spirit of Light · May 22, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
Both science and religion can be used to propagate fictitious narratives that are used to mitigate the dread of death and inevitable mass extinction.

I keep telling that we are all going to die and they keep saying things like "God will help us", "Maybe science will find a solution", "Maybe we should pray to God about this", 'Scientists say that the cure for X is around the corner", "At least we will be with God in heaven if that happens", "We won't have to worry about it if we build a spaceship and launch ourselves into space" and many many more things like this. It gives me a headache.

We are all going to die and in the very near future we are all going to die en masse and there isn't anything science or religion can do about it.

So lets live a happy joyful life as long we are alive. But some take religion very serious, others take science very seriouse. and both are ok

Spirit of Light · May 22, 2019

Gerry said:
Yes, I must agree with you, in that your comment pertains to those who truly seek the truth, or spiritual wisdom.
My comment was thinking more about the majority of people who don’t even see the mountain.

That is also a valid way of seeing it

Maybe many who do not see the mountain are leaning toward science more then spiritual lifestyle? Honestly i do not know

The Reverend Bob · May 22, 2019

Amanaki said:
So lets live a happy joyful life as long we are alive. But some take religion very serious, others take science very seriouse. and both are ok

That's how the saying goes; Let us eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we will die! I have no beef with science or religion I just get annoyed when some people look to them as if they were some sort of panacea.

Spirit of Light · May 22, 2019

The Reverend Bob said:
That's how the saying goes; Let us eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we will die! I have no beef with science or religion I just get annoyed when some people look to them as if they were some sort of panacea.

Well for those who follow a spiritual path in a serious manner, they can see that the teaching actually works in every day life. and they use it to benefit how they live and how they understand the difficult times in life.
And to live in the moment, not dwelling in the past or worry about tomorrow is something most religions have a form of teaching about. I dont see anything wrong with that teaching

sealchan · May 22, 2019

Gerry said:
Moving on,

In science, all scientists use the same basic principles and methodologies to obtain ‘truth’

In religion, every one uses different principles and methodologies (again, those of the religion’s creator). This will result in many (thousands) truths, not the single truth that they all allegedly seek.

I think it can be argued that within different scientific domains there is a diversity of ways in which experimentation is integrated. In theoretical physics there is a lot of creative mathematics developed and less often there are supporting experiments to prove the theory. In some disciplines observation and categorization dominated for years before experimentation became reasonable, e.g. psychology.

Wandering Monk · May 22, 2019

Religious tenets are not falsifiable. This is way in which science and religion are NOT similar.

sealchan · May 22, 2019

Nakosis said:
How do I feel about this?

Science is a method to verify claims made about truth.

Religion creates a truth belief which for the most part can't be verified.

For science to be credible, it has to be verified. Not all scientific claims are/can be verified. They can be shown to be false.

Religion generally makes truth claims that are impossible to prove as false. So the claims stick around and people choose to accept the claims or not at their own discretion. Whatever feels to be the truth to you.

Science, you can't rely on your feelings. Well you can initially, when you make the claim but you are likely to be shown to be wrong. IMO, through the process of science, it's been shown that feelings are not very reliable as far as the truth goes.

Religion for it's core truths has to rely solely on feelings. Religion is kind of awkward when science is around.

Do feelings play any useful role in truth determination? Some neurologists claim that feelings are crucial to even the process of logic and rationality.

Rational Agnostic · May 22, 2019

"Science has eradicated smallpox, can inmmunise against most previously deadly viruses, can kill most previously deadly bacteria. Theology has done nothing but talk of pestilence as the wages of sin."

-Richard Dawkins

sealchan · May 22, 2019

Amanaki said:
In my understanding of all religions, they do seek the same truth, but there is used different teaching and techniques to gain the inner wisdom to understand the full truth.
You can look at it as a mountain where there are multiple paths leading to the top. and at the top is the ultimate truth. So each path has its own teacher or God/Buddha/Dao and so forth. For the teachers who them self must have climbed the mountain toward ultimate truth they reach a level of inner wisdom, but non of them reach exactly the same point on the mountain (path of wisdom) So when they do teach the followers, even they would feel they see the ultimate truth, they can only see(understand) up to the level they reached in their cultivation,
Meaning an enlighten being (teacher) can not see what is abovet their own wisdom level, but they do see everything on their level and below.
(this is how i understand the systems of the different religions)

And I think that this comparative perspective helps to build a case for the idea that religion is supportive of the experience of truth for many people and that that truth is something which transcends the incidental "clothing" that religions dress that truth up in...whatever that may mean.

It is clearly, IMO, a different kind of truth and one in which the words "personal meaning" play prominently as opposed to those truths that science provides an experience for most. This is not to say that one cannot find deep personal meaning in science, of course. I myself have found and continue to find much of my experience of mystery and meaning in science's description of phenomenon. But it has never been its collective focus to provide that sort of truth.

The Reverend Bob · May 22, 2019

Amanaki said:
Well for those who follow a spiritual path in a serious manner, they can see that the teaching actually works in every day life. and they use it to benefit how they live and how they understand the difficult times in life.
And to live in the moment, not dwelling in the past or worry about tomorrow is something most religions have a form of teaching about. I dont see anything wrong with that teaching

The thing about science and religion is that both are limited in their scope. One might be useful for this thing but it won't be useful for the other thing that the other is useful for.

Nakosis · May 22, 2019

sealchan said:
Do feelings play any useful role in truth determination? Some neurologists claim that feelings are crucial to even the process of logic and rationality.

About reality, IMO, no. About what we accept as truth, yes. I even accept that feelings play a role in human logic and rationality. Not Vulcan logic however.

Reality/actuality doesn't really care what our feelings beyond the effect that our feelings cause us to affect reality.

For example, I may feel Donald Trump is the smartest person on the planet. No necessary correlation to reality. However, perhaps my feelings will motivate me to vote for Trump in 2020 thereby my feelings affecting reality.

So what I feel may not be true but my feelings can affect what is true. So feelings can be causal of truth but truth may not be causal of feelings.

sealchan · May 22, 2019

leov said:
Physical is part of metaphysical. Physical may appear independent but it is not so, there is a tie which may be not noticeable by physics, may be less by QM. Material science study physical events and spiritual base of physical may not be important for the study as spiritual base is not manifested in material world.

Is the method of determining truth for the spiritual/metaphysical the same or different than that of determining truth in physical reality? And if so what is the method for determining metaphysical reality?

leov · May 22, 2019

sealchan said:
Is the method of determining truth for the spiritual/metaphysical the same or different than that of determining truth in physical reality? And if so what is the method for determining metaphysical reality?

I am not a scientist, someone who is a scientist and a theist would be able to give more reliable answer, People have wide range of abilities to get connection with spiritual side. Some natural and some developed.

Ellen Brown · May 22, 2019

sealchan said:
I like the myth part the most myself. I would argue that the greatest benefit is derived from the leverage that myths provide at an unconscious level of the psyche. It is the universal mythic motifs across religious traditions that are, perhaps, the most objectively efficacious.

Pretty certain that large parts of these 'myths' are rooted in truth.

shunyadragon · May 22, 2019

sealchan said:
Do feelings play any useful role in truth determination? Some neurologists claim that feelings are crucial to even the process of logic and rationality.

Feelings are indeed crucial to how logic and rationality is applied, but 'truth determination' that is highly questionable.

David T · May 22, 2019

Gerry said:
“Both religion and science are "ways of knowing truth”

I cannot see this.

Science attempts to reach ‘truth’
Definition of science:
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Religion attempts to get as many followers as possible to believe the same thing as the creator (of the religion).
The beliefs of said creator may not have any relationship to ‘truth’

A bit like an engineer complaining about artists. Whaaaaaah I don't understand music whaaaa.

David T · May 22, 2019

Gerry said:
“Both religion and science are "ways of knowing truth”

I cannot see this.

Science attempts to reach ‘truth’
Definition of science:
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Religion attempts to get as many followers as possible to believe the same thing as the creator (of the religion).
The beliefs of said creator may not have any relationship to ‘truth’

Institutional religion tends to be really suck art not always though. Institutional science mostly is about making iPhones. Big deal. Gadget freaks vs horrid artists who cares?

sealchan · May 23, 2019

Gerry said:
What is the definition of “a believer” ?

By the way, your dice comment hit close to home for me.
I found truth at a poker table once. (I played a LOT of poker in my past). Well, more than once, but one stood out. And it came from the hand that was dealt, not from any player.

A believer is someone who finds truth in an unprovable statement IMO. I think that that deep sense of conviction in certain ideas or stories is a universal and important aspect of human experience.

In a central moment in the great spiritual epic The Mahabharata there is a game of dice played on the one hand by the virtuous son of the God of truth against an uncle of the son's family who secretly wants to destroy that family. I find that whole scenario to be metaphoric of the experience of truth within what is random and also meaningless as well as of the lie that any truth is not also in some context a lie.

Coming To Terms: Religion vs Science

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