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Any like-minded believers out there?

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
You seem to misunderstand that sin came from abusing free will, not because there was a defect in their physical structure. God did not created defective creatures.

God doesn't speak according to your words, "abusing free will" etc.. God says that sin comes when man is tempted by his own lust and enticed. It is that which gives birth to sin. I suggest you listen to the scripture rather than who you have listened to.

As far as Adam not being defective goes, again we must listen to the Scripture. Paul says that Adam is the natural man made from dust. And he says that it is that natural, earthy man, which must have a change of nature in order to enter the kingdom of God. The change of nature from the natural man, made from earth, to the spiritual man, made by the Spirit, is necessary so that the man cannot be tempted by the sinful flesh because it no longer applies to him. he will no longer have desires which oppose God. He will therefore be immortal.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Audie,


"IF, btw, the "flood" were high enough to take out
all humankind, it would have to be at least a mile
high to get to Denver Colorado and with the time
it took the water to get that high, people could have
run higher.

Dont you suppose water over a mile high would leave
some sign that it had been there?"

Did you forget how I showed the Bible @ Psalms 104 explains that the Earth topography was smoother, prior to the Flood, than after?

Actually, saying "a mile" is better than saying "over five miles", i.e. to cover Mt. Everest. (IMO, Mt. Everest formed after the Flood.) So, thanks for that!

BTW, that water is still here.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@LightofTruth said:

"Adam sinned. Therefore, Adam had sinful flesh."

No, Adam had free will, the ability to choose a way different than what God wanted.

You don't think it possible, a perfect person could sin?

Then why would Satan try to tempt Jesus, if it wasn't possible?

And how did Satan become a satan, and a devil? (A resister and a slanderer?)

He wasn't created that way. (Just as parents don't give birth to thieves...rather, their children grow up and make wrong choices ...the same with the devil.)

Deuteronomy 32 4,5 informs us that the Rock's activity is "perfect.....The defect is their own."
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
You hardly need to be a expert to see that if polar
ice deeply predates any possible flood, and, IF there
had been a flood, it would have floated the ice off,
broken it up, and it would not be there.

That is one very simple obvious and direct way to
disprove the flood story.

Isnt it about time to let a little "light of truth" shine
on your "scripture"?
What?! Only if the Flood brought temperatures that were above freezing, would that happen! It didnt!
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Paul explains the resurrection of the dead in 1 Cor 15.
When a person dies they are a dead soul. When a person who is in covenant with God, and has remained faithful, he will be raised from the dead as an immortal soul / life.
I'm not much of a Pauline….

there are two levels of death.....of body
of spirit

immortality is possible
God
the sons of God

and the Lord's Prayer begins …..Our Father

your Father?
my Father?

brothers of flesh?.....not likely
brothers of spirit?.....maybe

but not our choice?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What?! Only if the Flood brought temperatures that were above freezing, would that happen! It didnt!

I notice neither of you can just take the
"Word of God" for what happened, it being
just too unbelievable even for you. So,
maybe he really meant this, or maybe he
really meant that, lets tweak and fluff it up,
add details and take some away till it fits
whatever stories you make up.

Always interesting to see how god's infallible
guidance in scrip-readin' leads you guys to such
completely different perfect truths.

Like that the polar ice did not float because, uh.
what, the ocean was frozen? Honestly, people
in America!
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
I notice neither of you can just take the
"Word of God" for what happened, it being
just too unbelievable even for you. So,
maybe he really meant this, or maybe he
really meant that, lets tweak and fluff it up,
add details and take some away till it fits
whatever stories you make up.

Always interesting to see how god's infallible
guidance in scrip-readin' leads you guys to such
completely different perfect truths.

Like that the polar ice did not float because, uh.
what, the ocean was frozen? Honestly, people
in America!

You're asking me to be a superficial reader of Scripture. "Just take it for what it actually says" . Well, if I were to do that then I have to say that the earth/world no longer exists.It has perished.

2 Peter 3: 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world (κόσμος (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

So the world (κόσμος (kosmos) perished (ἀπώλετο (apōleto) to destroy fully}?

When the water receded the world was still there and is still here today. But according to a superficial reader the world no longer exists.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
@LightofTruth said:

"Adam sinned. Therefore, Adam had sinful flesh."

No, Adam had free will, the ability to choose a way different than what God wanted.

You don't think it possible, a perfect person could sin?

Then why would Satan try to tempt Jesus, if it wasn't possible?

And how did Satan become a satan, and a devil? (A resister and a slanderer?)

He wasn't created that way. (Just as parents don't give birth to thieves...rather, their children grow up and make wrong choices ...the same with the devil.)

Deuteronomy 32 4,5 informs us that the Rock's activity is "perfect.....The defect is their own."

Ok, you say Adam had free will. The Scripture says man sins by being tempted and enticed by his OWN lust.

Sorry, but I'll have to side with Scripture.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
The kosmos that was fully destroyed by the flood refers to the wickedness of man whose imagination of his heart and mind was only evil continually.

There is a kosmos (world/heaven and earth) which refers to men and also a literal kosmos (world/heaven and earth).

According to Peter, the kosmos that was fully destroyed (perished) by the flood was the figurative kosmos consisting of a wicked heaven and earth (men)

Peter also informs us that by the word of God the kosmos that now is is reserved unto fire whereby the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

Again, this refers NOT to the literal kosmos but the figurative kosmos. it refers again to a heaven and earth which are wicked and will bring God's judgment.

God's judgment is to take place in the land that He has promised to His people. And His judgment will come from an army that will invade (like a flood) the land. It will not take place on the polar ice.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Adam sinned. Therefore, Adam had sinful flesh. Besides, Jesus was made in all things like unto his brethren, not simply like Adam when Adam was created.
Man sins by first being tempted. When he is drawn away and enticed by his own desires.

That is true....but it works better if you have inherited sin from Adam. Things like lust do not exist in perfect humans....that too is a product of sin.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sorry, I hate the archaic English! No one talks like that anymore. And language has changed over time. That form of language is completely outdated.

This says it better....IMO.

"Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death." (NLT)

Adam's own sinful flesh was more powerful than God's law. Adam's own lust brought forth the transgression of eating the fruit and the result was death.

It wasn't Adam's own sinful inclination at all. He didn't have one. If you read through Genesis you will see that Adam had waited for quite some time for a mate of his own. He had observed all the animals with mates and he had been given the privilege of naming them. But the time came when God said that it was "not good for the man to continue by himself".....God would make a helper for him.
\
Genesis 2:21-24....
"So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. While the man slept, the Lord God took out one of the man’s ribs and closed up the opening. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib, and he brought her to the man.

23 “At last!” the man exclaimed.

This one is bone from my bone,
and flesh from my flesh!
She will be called ‘woman,’
because she was taken from ‘man
.’”


24 This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one."
(NLT)

When the devil approached the woman, she was on her own....Adam was educated by God but the woman was to be educated by her husband. According to scripture when the devil tempted her (as the youngest and least educated) he appealed to self interest.....virtually saying that 'if you think you have it good now, wait till I show you what God has been keeping from you...!' She was deceived, (1 Timothy 2:14) but Adam was not. His choice to join his wife in disobedience was also a selfish decision, but for an entirely different reason. Satan tempted the woman to get to the man. (it was through the man that sin entered into the world, not the woman. Romans 5:12) Satan divided his loyalties even though Adam knew that the death penalty applied, but chose to be loyal to his wife rather than to his Creator. That was a different temptation to what Eve was offered. His choice was not forgivable.

Paul says that the law is made weak by the flesh. So God sent His son in that same weakness of the flesh so that the sin in the flesh might be condemned on the cross.

That is not what the Bible says at all. The flesh is made weak by sin. (Romans 7:18-25)

How is sin in the flesh condemned on the cross if there was no sin in the flesh of Jesus? It is impossible

You don't understand the mechanics of the ransom....do you?

Do you know what a "redeemer" was in Israel?
Do you understand how redemption was achieved?

Galatians 3:13...
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.” (NLT)
His was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died instead of us....like someone who steps in front of you to take a bullet....and he did this willingly.

Redemption has a price.....that price paid by Jesus was a perfect sinless life for a perfect sinless life, which was the law.
"Your eyes shall not pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

Equivalency was the requirement.....Jesus was the balance for the first Adam by becoming "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:45)

For some reason you seem to want to deny the scriptures when they conflict with what you choose to believe....?
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
That is true....but it works better if you have inherited sin from Adam. Things like lust do not exist in perfect humans....that too is a product of sin.



Sorry, I hate the archaic English! No one talks like that anymore. And language has changed over time. That form of language is completely outdated.

This says it better....IMO.

"Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death." (NLT)



It wasn't Adam's own sinful inclination at all. He didn't have one. If you read through Genesis you will see that Adam had waited for quite some time for a mate of his own. He had observed all the animals with mates and he had been given the privilege of naming them. But the time came when God said that it was "not good for the man to continue by himself".....God would make a helper for him.
\
Genesis 2:21-24....
"So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. While the man slept, the Lord God took out one of the man’s ribs and closed up the opening. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib, and he brought her to the man.

23 “At last!” the man exclaimed.

This one is bone from my bone,
and flesh from my flesh!
She will be called ‘woman,’
because she was taken from ‘man.’”


24 This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one."
(NLT)

When the devil approached the woman, she was on her own....Adam was educated by God but the woman was to be educated by her husband. According to scripture when the devil tempted her (as the youngest and least educated) he appealed to self interest.....virtually saying that 'if you think you have it good now, wait till I show you what God has been keeping from you...!' She was deceived, (1 Timothy 2:14) but Adam was not. His choice to join his wife in disobedience was also a selfish decision, but for an entirely different reason. Satan tempted the woman to get to the man. (it was through the man that sin entered into the world, not the woman. Romans 5:12) Satan divided his loyalties even though Adam knew that the death penalty applied, but chose to be loyal to his wife rather than to his Creator. That was a different temptation to what Eve was offered. His choice was not forgivable.



That is not what the Bible says at all. The flesh is made weak by sin. (Romans 7:18-25)



You don't understand the mechanics of the ransom....do you?

Do you know what a "redeemer" was in Israel?
Do you understand how redemption was achieved?

Galatians 3:13...
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.” (NLT)
His was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died instead of us....like someone who steps in front of you to take a bullet....and he did this willingly.

Redemption has a price.....that price paid by Jesus was a perfect sinless life for a perfect sinless life, which was the law.
"Your eyes shall not pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

Equivalency was the requirement.....Jesus was the balance for the first Adam by becoming "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:45)

For some reason you seem to want to deny the scriptures when they conflict with what you choose to believe....?

Can't you see the contradiction in your own response?

You go on saying that you hate archaic English, then you submit your JW translation which says the same thing as the KJV. The verse explains how man sinned and brought death into the world. Then you say it doesn't apply to the man Adam. The one who sinned and brought death into the world.
No intelligent person would believe your contradictory nonsense.
 
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