RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
I forgot to not feed the swine, sorry.
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Why Should I Believe The Bible?
- Thread starter tosca1
- Start date
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Does justice exist?
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
At this point I don't even remember the stupid video. Why am I here on this site doing this?! 
Zita
Solitary Eclectic Witch
I don't know? is it
Can you demonstrate the power of either good or evil in the absence of any human involvement?
But you've just ignored all the other scripture in the world. Are you saying, and can you provide any reason for saying, that only the Bible was written under divine superintendence, while the others were not?
More, could you do so to the satisfaction of not just me, but to those who place their solid faith in their own scriptures?
Meh...why is their God instead of no God? Precisely the same question, for which you will simply invoke (this one time only, never to be offered again ladies and gentlemen?) a special exemption. Your special exemption is not justified by anything whatever.
Not "true," but reasonable to believe. Supernaturalism I certainly disbelieve, and I await (although at my age I can't wait much longer) one single valid example, which so far, tragically, nobody has provided. (That in itself ought to tell you something. It does me.)
I think the admonition to love one another is a good one, since I recognize humans as a social species, dependent upon one another for our survival. I think "turn the other cheek," may be iffy, since that will often merely empower an aggressor to behave even worse towards you. I think "take no thought for tomorrow" is a bit of nonsense that would do anyone who believed it implicitly much more harm than good.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
The Buddha is a real person with real teachings. All i am aware of his teachings is The Eight fold Path.
Mythology to me is mostly fantasy with some possibility of revealing truthes, or spiritual wisdoms. It can also be total rubbish as i see it.
The Bible has compelling perspectives but as a whole looks to be quite incoherent and inconsistent in its logic. It forces me to assume too much, and does not reveal character sufficiently. IMO. There seems to be no good reason for an omnipotent God to have to endure a Roman Cross just to redeem mankind.
I see no proof of your God of the Bible. But in his book he sure does a lot of killing....... But now he won't show up, nor will his son who was going to 'come right back'. No, atheists don't believe that a 'God created the world sinful', they simply don't believe that any 'god' created any world. And to think that you or I might have some knowledge about why and how a 'universe' was created might be a little ....... what, maybe arrogant. So, you want to just say 'God did it', right, without any evidence or proof that a 'god' even exists. Humans have created thousands of gods, but this latest god, your god, is real....... Right........ So what is the origin of your 'God'? Have you considered taking an anthropology course?
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Another test is what God’s Prophets that came after Jesus have said and in this respect Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah all confirm the truth of Jesus and the Bible in Their Holy Writings and Books.
I’m privileged and honored to have the bounty of having accepted Jesus and the Bible. I know of no other gift greater in this life than having been enabled to recognize the truth.
My belief is that it is undoubtedly truth and that Buddha was a Universal Educator like Jesus. Exactly how He received enlightenment may differ in the telling but He received this enlightenment just like the Dove descended on Jesus or Gabriel appeared to Muhammad in a cave or the Maiden appeared to Baha’u’llah in the dungeon . It was a spiritual experience but afterwards They all became possessed of innate knowledge and wisdom.
Why do you think men have this incredible need to have a god?
Granted, many were born to their parents' belief system - but many rebelled too, and either questioned, or abandoned or went astray from the belief system they were brought into.
I'm one of them!
Many came back - not necessarily to the belief system they were brought up with, though.
I'm one of them!
Many too were brought up and raised by parents who are atheists/agnostics/non-believers from other religion, who eventually found Christianity.
A lot of people find God at a later day in their lives - when they're more informed, and had sincerely searched.
I don't know the mind of God.
This is the part where you show your argument is based on ignorance.
FYI, unlike atheists who are forced to remain in a small box (and, could never venture out of it without shedding their atheism) -
Christianity can follow where the evidence is.
Even if evolution is proven to be true..........
.........Christianity can OWN IT!
On the other hand.....
Atheism is a close-minded ideology or belief. They'll have to be!
They cannot make their little toes go out of that small box.
So....for all the new atheist bravado about "rationality".......new atheists cannot apply REASON!
As an example - even when science does not negate the existence of God or a Creator .......atheists ignore that very crucial fact. They cannot acknowledge or accept that.
REASON is alien to atheism.
Why do they try to distort the definition of "atheist?"
Because.....they have no wiggle room in that tiny box!
Atheists can never consider the possibility of the existence of God or a god, because if they do - they're no longer atheists........no matter how they stretch and try to distort the definition of an atheist!
INDEED!
That's why The National Academy of Sciences had singled out THEISTIC Evolution - a belief that God created the universe and all the processes that make evolution possible! Evidences from various disciplines of science show the compatibility to it!
WMAP Site FAQs
You're confusing men with God.
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HonestJoe
Well-Known Member
Are you aware of Pascal’s Wager (Pascal's wager - Wikipedia)? It’s flaws have been well discussed.
His entire point was that it is important that the authors are who they claim to be because their being direct eyewitnesses writing about themselves significantly strengthens the veracity of their writing. If we don’t know who the authors are, we don’t know they’re eyewitnesses writing about themselves and so everything that followed about the Honesty Test becomes irrelevant.
That’s an unproven (and arguably unprovable) assertion. The whole point in all of this is that you need other reasons to convince people of the legitimacy of the bible as the basis of a revealed religion. All revealed religions make the same statement about their scriptures so alone it is useless.
I think you’re missing my point. If they were writing about themselves and reporting their bad actions, why didn’t they explain why they made those bad decisions at the time. The Honest Test is about them being honest about what they did but I find it odd that they wouldn’t also be honest about why they did it. Someone else writing about them seems like a viable explanation for that, potentially contradicting the eyewitness claim.
You can’t use your conclusion as an assumption in your logic. That would be a circular argument.
Yet the video suggests this is evidence that they are the actual authors. You seem to be agreeing with me that in this element the video is wrong.
We’ve looks at the evidence for the authors being the disciples and agreed there are flaws there but that only leads to a conclusion of who didn’t write them. Again, you can’t simply assert that it was God and expect people to just accept it as unquestionable fact, otherwise there’d be no point to the video in the first place. You’d need to present positive evidence and reasoning to support your hypothesis.
He just happened to pick historical figures who happened to have long gaps between their lives and the histories written about them?
Nobody is basing a proscriptive religion on Alexander the Great either. Nobody is making claims of supernatural or divine acts and events surrounding Alexander the Great.
The veracity of the Bible as the basis for reveal religion isn’t based on the existence of the man Jesus, it is based on the existence of the divine Christ. The non-Christian sources only speak to the former. References to the latter are based on the existing claims and beliefs of Christians alone.
He clearly implied it. He flowed directly from taking about the non-Christian sources to describing all those elements of the Jesus story, not only his existence and preaching but that he was the son of God and that he was resurrected. Again, evidence for Jesus is not evidence for Christ.
It’s still a strawman if some people did it. The point is that he didn’t refer or respond to specific statements or complaints, he paraphrased and generalised all objections to Biblical claims so he could dismiss any and all challenges in one go. That is the very definition of strawman.
Exactly, and that makes the legitimacy and veracity of the OT relevant. I’m not saying he needed to do this, I just thought it was jarring that he opened with a 101 on what the Bible is, referring to both the OT and the NT together but then never even mentioned the OT again in the entire video. Could that be because the entire fulfilment of prophecy argument is much more difficult to make and that in general promoting the OT and a foundation for contemporary Christianity raises a lot more difficult questions. I’m not saying they can’t be addressed, it would just take a much longer and more complex video (or, as people have done before, long and technical academic books).
The bottom line is simple here. Nothing in that video has convinced me that I should suddenly accept everything written in the Bible (or the NT at least) as unquestionably true, convert to Christianity and follow the divine word of Jesus. Followers of other religions (and other forms of Christianity) can and do make very similar arguments in their own favour and I find them no more (or less) convincing. If he thinks his video offers people a reason to believe the Bible, it has failed. If nothing else, shouldn’t that raise questions about the validity and completeness of his arguments?
But we do know who the authors are! Except that, some questions them! Just because some questions the authorship doesn't necessarily mean that those who question it are right!
There will always be those who will nitpick, or question from ignorance. Anyone who truly want to know (with an OPEN MIND), surely they can do their own research - many sources are available that deal with this "controversy."
Surely, you don't expect a 15 minute clip to convince a non-believer? Someone who truly seek will dig some more.
That clip is just a......a what.....(I can't find the right word right now)......covering the common questions non-believers ask about the Bible. People just want quick info now. But there are those, who really search for the truth - this gives them something to start with.
No, honesty is that they admitted to and/or showed those errors.
Why do they have to explain? How much more can you explain when you're caught sleeping on the job? No matter the explanation - bottom line: you were sleeping on the job.
Like I said - the Book is not about them!
Got to go. Continuation later....
Why do you think men have this incredible need to have a god?
Granted, many were born to their parents' belief system - but many rebelled too, and either questioned, or abandoned or went astray from the belief system they were brought into.
I'm one of them!
Many came back - not necessarily to the belief system they were brought up with, though.
I'm one of them!
Many too were brought up and raised by parents who are atheists/agnostics/non-believers from other religion, who eventually found Christianity.
A lot of people find God at a later day in their lives - when they're more informed, and had sincerely searched.
I don't know the mind of God.
This is the part where you show your argument is based on ignorance.
FYI, unlike atheists who are forced to remain in a small box (and, could never venture out of it without shedding their atheism) -
Christianity can follow where the evidence is.
Even if evolution is proven to be true..........
.........Christianity can OWN IT!
On the other hand.....
Atheism is a close-minded ideology or belief. They'll have to be!
They cannot make their little toes go out of that small box.
So....for all the new atheist bravado about "rationality".......new atheists cannot apply REASON!
As an example - even when science does not negate the existence of God or a Creator .......atheists ignore that very crucial fact. They cannot acknowledge or accept that.
REASON is alien to atheism.
Why do they try to distort the definition of "atheist?"
Because.....they have no wiggle room in that tiny box!
Atheists can never consider the possibility of the existence of God or a god, because if they do - they're no longer atheists........no matter how they stretch and try to distort the definition of an atheist!
INDEED!
That's why The National Academy of Sciences had singled out THEISTIC Evolution - a belief that God created the universe and all the processes that make evolution possible! Evidences from various disciplines of science show the compatibility to it!
WMAP Site FAQs
You're confusing men with God.
Greetings...... Let's see, you asked 'Why do you think men have this incredible need to have a god?' Well, let's look at it. For openers, because it's a dominant cultural phenomenon, and every human being is born into a group that possesses a cultural identity, and each group creates a god for their group. It has gone on for thousands of years, resulting in books such as Marjorie Leach's "Guide to the Gods", which lists over 900 pages of gods. It's called a cultural heritage. But like I say, we've all been brainwashed from birth, long before our critical faculties have begun to develop, by everyone, by your parents and relatives, preachers, neighbors, etc., because it's a cultural mandate, and identifies you as a member of the group. Religions are imposed culturally upon us all. And of course you're not told that religions, like everything else, evolve, just as languages and technology evolve, that is, they change over time. For example, in Christian culture, God is the beginning of everything, because He says so in his Book. But the Canaanites had been there for a couple of thousands of years, just as there were people on earth for hundreds of thousands of years. Religion is an 'in-group' kind of structure, and it's purpose is to solidify the group by providing a bloated view of reality with your group and your deity the only true ones.
But each culture seems to want to be the 'greatest', and everyone is expected to participate in the current belief system. Humanity is presently at a crossroads, where science has achieved enough credibility to enable it to present a factual world reality, as opposed to the religions of the past, all built upon myth and guesswork. Christians reject all these thousands of past gods and religions in favor of the current few choices, which interestingly enough, are determined to fight their way to domination. But to my knowledge God will not show up, nor will his son return as he said he would, two events that would prove immediately the reality of what you are suggesting.
That's a quick summary of an atheist perspective........
Altfish
Veteran Member
So, Harry Potter is true because the J K Rowling books say so?
viole 15:21. Verily verily I say to you. viole is the true creator of the Universe. Accept me and you will live forever with the angels. Refute me and I will send you to a hell that is 100 times worse than the Bible hell.
Now, your bet should now be moved to faith in viole. For if you do not, you bet against a much worse eternal destiny.
How is that flawed?
Ciao
- viole
Yes, and Ulysses partners were eye witnesses of one eyed gigantic creatures , sirens and people turned into pigs by a witch with a bad disposition.
These are just nice stories in a book, you know? I would not believe by default everything I read.
Ciao
- viole
Why do you think men have this incredible need to have a god?
Granted, many were born to their parents' belief system - but many rebelled too, and either questioned, or abandoned or went astray from the belief system they were brought into.
I'm one of them!
Many came back - not necessarily to the belief system they were brought up with, though.
I'm one of them!
Many too were brought up and raised by parents who are atheists/agnostics/non-believers from other religion, who eventually found Christianity.
A lot of people find God at a later day in their lives - when they're more informed, and had sincerely searched.
I don't know the mind of God.
This is the part where you show your argument is based on ignorance.
FYI, unlike atheists who are forced to remain in a small box (and, could never venture out of it without shedding their atheism) -
Christianity can follow where the evidence is.
Even if evolution is proven to be true..........
.........Christianity can OWN IT!
On the other hand.....
Atheism is a close-minded ideology or belief. They'll have to be!
They cannot make their little toes go out of that small box.
So....for all the new atheist bravado about "rationality".......new atheists cannot apply REASON!
As an example - even when science does not negate the existence of God or a Creator .......atheists ignore that very crucial fact. They cannot acknowledge or accept that.
REASON is alien to atheism.
Why do they try to distort the definition of "atheist?"
Because.....they have no wiggle room in that tiny box!
Atheists can never consider the possibility of the existence of God or a god, because if they do - they're no longer atheists........no matter how they stretch and try to distort the definition of an atheist!
INDEED!
That's why The National Academy of Sciences had singled out THEISTIC Evolution - a belief that God created the universe and all the processes that make evolution possible! Evidences from various disciplines of science show the compatibility to it!
WMAP Site FAQs
You're confusing men with God.
Why do you think men have this incredible need to have a god?
Granted, many were born to their parents' belief system - but many rebelled too, and either questioned, or abandoned or went astray from the belief system they were brought into.
I'm one of them!
Many came back - not necessarily to the belief system they were brought up with, though.
I'm one of them!
Many too were brought up and raised by parents who are atheists/agnostics/non-believers from other religion, who eventually found Christianity.
A lot of people find God at a later day in their lives - when they're more informed, and had sincerely searched.
I don't know the mind of God.
This is the part where you show your argument is based on ignorance.
FYI, unlike atheists who are forced to remain in a small box (and, could never venture out of it without shedding their atheism) -
Christianity can follow where the evidence is.
Even if evolution is proven to be true..........
.........Christianity can OWN IT!
On the other hand.....
Atheism is a close-minded ideology or belief. They'll have to be!
They cannot make their little toes go out of that small box.
So....for all the new atheist bravado about "rationality".......new atheists cannot apply REASON!
As an example - even when science does not negate the existence of God or a Creator .......atheists ignore that very crucial fact. They cannot acknowledge or accept that.
REASON is alien to atheism.
Why do they try to distort the definition of "atheist?"
Because.....they have no wiggle room in that tiny box!
Atheists can never consider the possibility of the existence of God or a god, because if they do - they're no longer atheists........no matter how they stretch and try to distort the definition of an atheist!
INDEED!
That's why The National Academy of Sciences had singled out THEISTIC Evolution - a belief that God created the universe and all the processes that make evolution possible! Evidences from various disciplines of science show the compatibility to it!
WMAP Site FAQs
You're confusing men with God.
Hmmmm....... You have a bad misconception regarding atheism.... Atheism says only one thing: I have no knowledge or experience of anything supernatural, I am without a belief in any deity or supernatural power. It's that simple, and it is based on reason and observation completely, while religious belief is just that, a belief not based on reason. Beliefs promise the believer all kinds of rewards, but you'll never know because the dead have yet to communicate with the living.
Tosca1: You said: "This is the part where you show your argument is based on ignorance.
FYI, unlike atheists who are forced to remain in a small box (and, could never venture out of it without shedding their atheism) -
Christianity can follow where the evidence is."
Tosca1: You are so wrong.......I'm not in any way confined to a 'small box', that's a misconception of yours, as it seems it is you who is confined to your belief in a particular 'god', a god that you have created in your mind. I prefer my mind to be open to the entire universe...... but I have no desire to create a world in my imagination as you have. But it is your leaders that have the trump card, as it is they who define Christianity, not 'God'. You've perhaps noticed that every Christian has a slightly different interpretation of belief and of 'God', until there are dozens of variations of Christianity, all because there is no basic reality to Christianity! God won't 'show up'.
And this is a classic: "As an example - even when science does not negate the existence of God or a Creator .......atheists ignore that very crucial fact. They cannot acknowledge or accept that.
REASON is alien to atheism." You can't be serious: Science can't disprove that which doesn't exist, i.e. that can't be measured! And atheists are well aware of that, but you go further and suggest that reason is alien to atheism, when in fact it is the foundation of atheism. And there is no reason involved in your religion, when there is no proof of any gods or goddesses.
Belief distorts reality is the truth of it. But consider this..... Belief is comforting, you are promised guidance and shelter and you will meet your ancestors in a place called 'heaven', where there will be no toil and you'll have no worries, etc., etc. So give the priests and the pastors your money to facilitate your transition to 'otherworldliness' when you die.
I prefer the freedom of reality, as I'm not bound by any belief, other than that I must die....... Religion and belief have seen their day, it's time for reality, and it's time to confront what actually exists. And doesn't it strike you as odd that your God is the God of three different religions, and has written three different 'holy' books? But Allah doesn't believe Mary is holy, nor is Jesus, only God is holy. An as a Christian my 'holy' book says I may kill someone worshipping the moon......
I would expand this question, to include all of our epistemology:
Why should we believe anything?
By what process do we differentiate between Truth and deception?
Why should Miss Starky's kindergarten instruction be more credible than some movie, or tv announcer, or politician?
Why is the bible subject to derision and skepticism, and all other propaganda sources believed without question?
That has become the purpose and goal of science, to provide structure and method that is acceptable to all, that will assist in deciding what is 'real' and what is not real, based on corroboration of the evidence of our 5 senses. Science tells us that the world is contiguous, i.e. that it is continuous and there are no 'gaps' where gods and devils may suddenly appear at will. Science is based on elementary matter, i.e. protons and electrons and neutrons that are measurable and predictable. What cannot be measured by the scientific method is considered something other than 'reality'. But it is not absolute, it can be wrong, and it can be revised.
Now that is a half-fast definition by an 81 year old man from the 'old' school, but you get the idea...... reality is palpable, you can see it or hear it or sense it in some way. It is the opposite of that which is not 'real', i.e. not composed of matter, and it follows definitive laws of action, and something to do with entropy, etc. it's all beyond me now.
Let me take an example: Is Jesus really divine? Christianity says yes..... but, let's just imagine Jesus growing up, just as we ourselves have, through all the years from childhood through his late twenties when he became recognized. I don't believe that the nature of divinity can be hidden for 20 plus years without someone learning about it. A traveling salesperson or a perceptive teacher might notice that Jesus was....... well, different. But there is nothing recorded throughout the years except for the original scene in the temple where his parents found him. Now look at what happens today when anything supernatural is suspected, it is immediately broadcast to everyone within hearing distance, within television distance..... it will be known very quickly, very, very quickly since everyone wants to experience the supernatural. And it can't be hidden is my guess....... And Jesus hasn't come back yet either.......
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Justice is relative........