That Whole Homosexual--Sin Thing

BilliardsBall said:

Huh? What do you mean "enforce"? This nation of America is rife with abortion on demand, porn, drugs, infidelity, entropy and death.

If "enforce" means "speak about the issues and vote my conscience..." you are mistaken in your word definition.

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I meant what you were doing earlier. Trying to get me to take a stance and speak out against abortion before you felt I was allowed to speak on matters of homosexual discrimination. It felt like an attempt to silence myself and others on a topic you felt you knew better on.

Or was that not it? Was it just a suggestion as to another cause we could take up? Is that truly all it was? Maybe think hard on it.

BilliardsBall said:

1) Show me where the Bible discusses partial birth abortion, it doesn't.

2) Don't goalpost shift to discuss a book that you say is a made-up book of myths to preach at me, until you are willing to be accountable for the horrors you promote, like partial birth abortion.

I apologize for saying "something is wrong with you". All of us have something wrong IMHO, sin. But your moral compass seems rather broken to me!

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The only one discussing partial birth abortion is you. I never mentioned it, and I certainly never promoted it. I never said the Bible was "made up myths" either. You are having an imaginary conversation that I'm not in, and I'd appreciate it if you stop claiming I say things I never said nor implied. When you're ready for a grown up conversation where you respond to things I ACTUALLY say, rather than that you just pretend I said, let me know. As for moral compasses, maybe stop lying about people before getting all haughty about it.

BilliardsBall said:

Huh? What do you mean "enforce"? This nation of America is rife with abortion on demand, porn, drugs, infidelity, entropy and death.

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Are you suggesting that the US is different than any other country in that regard? I mean, apart from abortions not being as freely available (which is an unspeakably regressive move by alabama, I'm still honestly disgusted and gobsmacked). The whole death rate being higher than other developed countries is likely due to the poor standard of education and lack of accessible healthcare available; which another symptom of a right wing, selfish politic. Isn't it interesting that more secular countries tend to rank higher on all available wellbeing and social metrics (that I've seen)?

BilliardsBall said:

1) Show me where the Bible discusses partial birth abortion, it doesn't.

2) Don't goalpost shift to discuss a book that you say is a made-up book of myths to preach at me, until you are willing to be accountable for the horrors you promote, like partial birth abortion.

I apologize for saying "something is wrong with you". All of us have something wrong IMHO, sin. But your moral compass seems rather broken to me!

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1. Of course it doesn't. The technique did not exist then. By the same standards you cannot show where the Bible speaks of jet planes, telephones, vaccines or other modern inventions. How does that help your argument?

2 What horrors does he promote? Your inability to understand a technique or when and how it is used does not make that technique a "horror".

Dan From Smithville said:

Argument from ignorance simply means that for lack of evidence to the contrary, whatever is believed must be true. That would apply to people now or thousands of years ago. It says nothing about their cognitive ability or intelligence. Intelligent people make arguments like that all the time and have in the past.

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3000 years ago many were sure they saw or had evidence for a god. Evidence then compared to evidence today is as different as day and night.

Dan Mellis said:

Australia has also recently legalised gay marriage. Which means that the majority of developed countries now do not discriminate. Is your argument that the weather makes a difference? I'd say that its the areas where religion and bigotry has lost its grip that have legalised homosexuality and gay marriage. The fact that most of the world does not allow gay marriage is in no way indicative of what is right. If most of the world jumped off a cliff....

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What do you discriminate against? Do you approve of pedophilia or do you DISCRIMINATE against the sin? Do you DISCRIMINATE against Christians who teach that gay sex is a sin?

Anyone who has a moral framework DISCRIMINATES, so please spare those of us who don't approve of gay marriage. Unless you want to be Bibliophobes and DISCRIMINATE against Christian believers.

And then you'd have to label God as a homophobe also.

BilliardsBall said:

1) Show me where the Bible discusses partial birth abortion, it doesn't.

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Answer me a question, please:

What divine insight does the pro-abortion crowd think they have to where they can destroy in a mother's womb that which God is instrumental in creating (Psalm 139:13, Jeremiah 1:5, etc.)?

Prophets and Biblical personalities ordained from their mother’s wombs:

Samson: Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. “But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'” (Judges 13:6-7, see also Judges 16:17)

John the Baptist: “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15)

Jesus, the Son of God: Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” – Luke chapter 1

The Apostle Paul: “But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased…” (Galatians 1:15)

The fact is you don't know who that is in a mother's womb, so don't destroy it.

Spartan said:

Answer me a question, please:

What divine insight does the pro-abortion crowd think they have to where they can destroy in a mother's womb that which God is instrumental in creating (Psalm 139:13, Jeremiah 1:5, etc.)?

Prophets and Biblical personalities ordained from their mother’s wombs:

Samson: Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. “But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'” (Judges 13:6-7, see also Judges 16:17)

John the Baptist: “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15)

Jesus, the Son of God: Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” – Luke chapter 1

The Apostle Paul: “But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased…” (Galatians 1:15)

The fact is you don't know who that is in a mother's womb, so don't destroy it.

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People with crazy beliefs does not tell us that God opposed abortion. And the fact that his priests could perform abortions under certain conditions, and the fact that if a woman lost her fetus due to being struck in a fight during the "eye for an eye" day only merited a fine tells us that for the average person a fetus was not thought to have a soul.

Skwim said:

And you know this to be true because it's simply convenient to. Nice how Christians resort to interpolation when it helps their case, but never touch it when it doesn't. Honest to god, sometimes Christian apologetics is so transparently puerile it's comic.

In any case, the Bible says nothing to imply that being homosexual: being "sexually attracted to people of one's own sex," must amount to lust. You do understand the difference between attraction and lust, do you not? . . . . . . Hmm . . . Maybe you don't.

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There are Christians who have same-sex attraction, but who have chosen to never act on that attraction. I have a very good friend who has dealt with same sex attraction for years, but never acted on those desires and instead married, is in love with his wife and has two great adult children. He has counseled many other men over the years who have been challenged with the same issues.

Below is a link to an account of another person who identified as a homosexual, but found his true identity in Christ...

InChrist said:

There are Christians who have same-sex attraction, but who have chosen to never act on that attraction. I have a very good friend who has dealt with same sex attraction for years, but never acted on those desires and instead married, is in love with his wife and has two great adult children. He has counseled many other men over the years who have been challenged with the same issues.

Below is a link to an account of another person who identified as a homosexual, but found his true identity in Christ...

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Those sorts of claims are refuted by the fact that not every gay person is as "gay" as others. Some people are very homosexual. Some people are more bisexual. Some gay men can "go straight" since there is no such thing as a one hundred percent gay man or a one hundred percent straight man. That your friend could control himself for no good reason does not mean that every gay man can do so.

Subduction Zone said:

Those sorts of claims are refuted by the fact that not every gay person is as "gay" as others. Some people are very homosexual. Some people are more bisexual. Some gay men can "go straight" since there is no such thing as a one hundred percent gay man or a one hundred percent straight man. That your friend could control himself for no good reason does not mean that every gay man can do so.

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I didn't say anything about control or "going straight" Did you watch the video? If not, don't bother to comment further.

InChrist said:

I didn't say anything about control or "going straight" Did you watch the video? If not, don't bother to comment further.

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Give me a synopsis. Many Christians do not think that there is any sin to homosexuality since God made them that way.

InChrist said:

There are Christians who have same-sex attraction, but who have chosen to never act on that attraction. I have a very good friend who has dealt with same sex attraction for years, but never acted on those desires and instead married, is in love with his wife and has two great adult children. He has counseled many other men over the years who have been challenged with the same issues.

Below is a link to an account of another person who identified as a homosexual, but found his true identity in Christ...

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Ever here the adage "A swallow does not a summer make"?

Thing is, there's quite a spectrum on the sexual orientation continuum. Between the extreme ends of absolutely heterosexual and absolutely homosexual a person may end up anywhere in between. So although the guy in the video may have at one time identified as homosexual it's very possible that he wasn't all that far from identifying as a heterosexual. Bisexuals often switch their identities between the two as time goes by. Same goes for your friend. It's extremely, EXTREMELY, doubtful he ever sat at the absolutely homosexual end of the continuum, and that he's perfectly comfortable with his switch. From what I've read, of people who have had to force themselves from one position to the other very, very few have adjusted to where they are comfortably happy with their new identity. In fact, I recall that the suicide rate among such people is considerable.

So I would be hesitant to hype such changes as brimming with welcome results. Some of them are far from it.

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Subduction Zone said:

A being that does not exist cannot be "right". If you want to claim that homosexuality is wrong a rational reason is needed. "My superstitious beliefs say so" is not a very good answer.

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Do you debate or take part because you have proof God does not exist? How does he become right or wrong by existence ? If you were to use such reasoning then you would not be arguing right or wrong and sin. You simply have to prove that homosexuality is right.. If you look at the heterosexual humans in the world as opposed to the homosexual then the Heterosexual has it on the sheer number of them saying it is wrong for them. As not everyone is homosexual how do you make a case for right or wrong? I believe if you claim homosexuality is right then you are on the wrong thread. This thread is about the Whole homsexual -- sin thing. It is about why it should be called a sin and that means it is about God and sin and why people believe it to be so.,
So there is NO SUPERSTITIOUS BELIEF AND NOTHING IN YOUR REPLY THAT ANSWERs THE QUESTION BEING ASKED.

So now back to the theme of thread and it is important that if we discuss this subject as being a sin,.Then why do you believe somethings wrong and somethings not wrong in the eyes of God and sin. First and foremost why single this out as sin amongst so many other sins. Stealing, adultery, theft and all the other sins are still sin why do you agree on some and not on others? Why should it matter to you if not religious what others believe? Unless you can prove categorically that one sin is not sin amongst so many others within that religion then you are wasting your time. This is about why it is a 'sin thing' and your personal opinion does not cut the mustard. So God says many things a sin. How do you prove him wrong. The truth is you can't and whether you believe he exists or not does not prove he is right or wrong. You must show why such an act is wrong and in doing so must prove the same of any other sin. Why are they are right if this wrong.

A Vestigial Mote said:

I meant what you were doing earlier. Trying to get me to take a stance and speak out against abortion before you felt I was allowed to speak on matters of homosexual discrimination. It felt like an attempt to silence myself and others on a topic you felt you knew better on.

Or was that not it? Was it just a suggestion as to another cause we could take up? Is that truly all it was? Maybe think hard on it.

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No, that was it! You've got it.

Kangaroo Feathers said:

The only one discussing partial birth abortion is you. I never mentioned it, and I certainly never promoted it. I never said the Bible was "made up myths" either. You are having an imaginary conversation that I'm not in, and I'd appreciate it if you stop claiming I say things I never said nor implied. When you're ready for a grown up conversation where you respond to things I ACTUALLY say, rather than that you just pretend I said, let me know. As for moral compasses, maybe stop lying about people before getting all haughty about it.

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Sorry--used to other people being abusive around here.

What kind of abortion do you promote?

Dan Mellis said:

Are you suggesting that the US is different than any other country in that regard? I mean, apart from abortions not being as freely available (which is an unspeakably regressive move by alabama, I'm still honestly disgusted and gobsmacked). The whole death rate being higher than other developed countries is likely due to the poor standard of education and lack of accessible healthcare available; which another symptom of a right wing, selfish politic. Isn't it interesting that more secular countries tend to rank higher on all available wellbeing and social metrics (that I've seen)?

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We have different beliefs regarding wellbeing and social metrics. Eugenics, for example, hey--let's kill all the beautiful Down Syndrome babies. Awful!

I'm not leaving the USA soon.

Subduction Zone said:

1. Of course it doesn't. The technique did not exist then. By the same standards you cannot show where the Bible speaks of jet planes, telephones, vaccines or other modern inventions. How does that help your argument?

2 What horrors does he promote? Your inability to understand a technique or when and how it is used does not make that technique a "horror".

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Who appointed you the defender of all? I wasn't talking to you.

Spartan said:

Answer me a question, please:

What divine insight does the pro-abortion crowd think they have to where they can destroy in a mother's womb that which God is instrumental in creating (Psalm 139:13, Jeremiah 1:5, etc.)?

Prophets and Biblical personalities ordained from their mother’s wombs:

Samson: Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. “But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'” (Judges 13:6-7, see also Judges 16:17)

John the Baptist: “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15)

Jesus, the Son of God: Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” – Luke chapter 1

The Apostle Paul: “But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased…” (Galatians 1:15)

The fact is you don't know who that is in a mother's womb, so don't destroy it.

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Correct!! And we don't have to know "who" to know "why, what, when, how... God's created living person!"

BilliardsBall said:

No, that was it! You've got it.

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Then, sorry to inform you, that doesn't work. You've got no leg to stand on with such behavior, most people will realize this, and you'll just look like a fool holding an empty bag.