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World Peace and Religion

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
CG Didymus said:
So if "God's" people don't obey the laws 100%, how's that going to bring peace and change the world? The religion loses its credibility. Then, of course, if everyone is forced to obey the laws of God, that's even worse. There's probably going to be some people rebelling against it.
I do not think this is the primary problem with its credibility. Most people do not even know about the laws or who obeys them.
So you don't think hypocrisy is a primary problem with the followers of a religion? I thought Baha'is had a thing about being doers of the Word and not just hearers? But I don't think that people can or will follow the Baha'i laws perfectly. So who's going to enforce the laws and make judgements against the people breaking the laws of the religion? More fallible people? People that are put in positions of authority? Since they aren't perfect, who's going to follow their rule? If they talk about peace and love but can't live it themselves, who's going to trust them?

If God let all the other religions get messed up by fallible people, how are fallible Baha'is not going to eventually mess things up? In small ways don't they mess up things already? In big ways, haven't some already tried to mess up and take control of the religion? So fallible Baha'is have kicked out those that have tried to take control. But what about in local communities or even at the National level?

I'd imagine that there are small to serious problems between people in power all the time. Do you really think imperfect, fallible people can bring peace? Or, will they mess up another "perfect" message from a "perfect" messenger from God again?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you don't think hypocrisy is a primary problem with the followers of a religion? I thought Baha'is had a thing about being doers of the Word and not just hearers? But I don't think that people can or will follow the Baha'i laws perfectly. So who's going to enforce the laws and make judgements against the people breaking the laws of the religion? More fallible people? People that are put in positions of authority? Since they aren't perfect, who's going to follow their rule? If they talk about peace and love but can't live it themselves, who's going to trust them?
I do not know what this thing is that you have about perfection. Only God is perfect.
Yes, I think hypocrisy is a major problem in religions, because people are basically selfish and they want what they want. Some people are able to rise above that, some aren't. That is the major problem.

I cannot say what is going to happen to the Baha'i Faith in the future, but Shoghi Effendi said that it is not going to have any influence until people change their our own inner life and private character.

“Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.”
Bahá’í Administration, p. 66

Whereas I refuse to be the judge of anyone, I can agree with that in principle.
If God let all the other religions get messed up by fallible people, how are fallible Baha'is not going to eventually mess things up? In small ways don't they mess up things already? In big ways, haven't some already tried to mess up and take control of the religion? So fallible Baha'is have kicked out those that have tried to take control. But what about in local communities or even at the National level?
I do not participate in the Baha'i community so I am out of the loop, so I do not know who or what you are referring to. o_O Who is messing things up and what are they messing up?
I'd imagine that there are small to serious problems between people in power all the time. Do you really think imperfect, fallible people can bring peace? Or, will they mess up another "perfect" message from a "perfect" messenger from God again?
The caveat is that in spite of the Baha'is, God is behind the Cause of Baha'u'llah, so it will triumph in the end. As I recall reading, I think it was Shoghi Effendi who wrote that if the Baha'is drop the ball, God will raise up a people who will do the work required to build the New World Order/Kingdom of God on earth.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Or (3) everyone can unite under the the Baha'i Faith, which is the latest religion that God has revealed, and give up their old outdated religions. I know they don't want to hear this, but that is just too bad. :rolleyes:
It really is the only solution and eventually it will come to pass because it is the Will of God.

Or (4) Everyone unites under Islam ;).
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Religion has been responsible for creating peace and for disrupting peace.
in 1914, during World War I, there was a cessation of hostilities as people from both sides celebrated Christmas together. Some even refusing to go back to fighting each other.
In the 2018 Olympics, North and South Korea joined together to compete as a single team.

Emperor Theodosius was the last Roman Emperor to rule over a united East and West Roman Empire.
He declared Nicene Christianity to be the official state church of the Roman Empire, he allowed the temples of the old religions to be destroyed, and he banned the Olympics because they were pagan. Historians use his death to mark the beginning of the Middle Ages.

When we consider that religion is the basis of a common bond among people. It seems that World Peace hinges upon religion. Religion will either Save the World or it will Destroy It.

Thoughts?

I dont think it can do either one.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Any "religion" that people fight wars in the name of is either a false religion, or those fighting for it are false followers. The meaning of the word "religion" is quite literally, to reconnect. That is, the end goal of religion is for peace and prosperity.

Also, you're extremely naive. There are some who use the word "peace" as a front for what they are really doing which is conquest and demanding submission. For example, if a dictator takes power "peacefully" by disarming all but the troops and police, and uses those forces to coerce absolute obedience, you do have the absence of violence, yes. But you also have a system that completely runs the lives of everyday people, enslaves them and keeps them in fear. True peace is not an empire built on an army of people who behave like clones oppressing the citizen, but a republic where each person is free and separate (and yes I have been watching Star Wars). Separate nations. Separate cultures.

Colonialism, globalism, same concept just the first was mostly employed by the right and the second by the left. They're euphemisms for the real word. Imperialism. Something that has been around since the Roman Empire. The desire to rule the world and people's lives. This is the Antichrist, the idea of One-World Government.

Religion can save the world best not by being peaceful, nor by being aggressive (we don't need to spread any religions), but by maintaining cultural borders. Europe and America is Christian, Israel is Jewish, the Middle East is Muslim, Africa should be folk animist, India is Hindu, and Asia is Taoist and Buddhist. The world doesn't need to all be Christian or Muslim or whatever. It needs to be what it is. When people respect borders as a religion then they respect boundaries as a people. When they do that, they respect the real rights of others. Then and only then, is there actual peace. The other "peace" is actually control.

The War Prayer
by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory with stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety’s sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came — next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams — visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender!

Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation:

God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest,
Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!

Then came the “long” prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory —

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher’s side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, “Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord and God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!”

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside — which the startled minister did — and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

“I come from the Throne — bearing a message from Almighty God!” The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. “He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import — that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of — except he pause and think. “God’s servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two — one uttered, and the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this — keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon your neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain on your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse on some neighbor’s crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

“You have heard your servant’s prayer — the uttered part of it. I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it — that part which the pastor — and also you in your hearts — fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard the words ‘Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!’ That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory — must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

“Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth into battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended in the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it —

For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimmage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!

We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause.) “Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits.”



It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I do not know what this thing is that you have about perfection. Only God is perfect.
Yes, I think hypocrisy is a major problem in religions, because people are basically selfish and they want what they want. Some people are able to rise above that, some aren't. That is the major problem.

I cannot say what is going to happen to the Baha'i Faith in the future, but Shoghi Effendi said that it is not going to have any influence until people change their our own inner life and private character.

“Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.”
Bahá’í Administration, p. 66

Whereas I refuse to be the judge of anyone, I can agree with that in principle.

I do not participate in the Baha'i community so I am out of the loop, so I do not know who or what you are referring to. o_O Who is messing things up and what are they messing up?

The caveat is that in spite of the Baha'is, God is behind the Cause of Baha'u'llah, so it will triumph in the end. As I recall reading, I think it was Shoghi Effendi who wrote that if the Baha'is drop the ball, God will raise up a people who will do the work required to build the New World Order/Kingdom of God on earth.
My "thing"? You're missing the whole point. Baha'is are supposed to have a plan that will bring peace to the world. But, it is dependent on fallible, imperfect people to put it into practice and make it work. You say that people "messed" up every other message from God. The Baha'i message is dependent on the "extent" Baha'is mirror forth the inner life and private character of the "eternal" principles proclaimed by Baha'u'llah? So we know that no Baha'i will "mirror" those things perfectly. So they have and will be messing things up. But "God" is behind the Cause of Baha'u'llah? And he wasn't behind the Causes of His other messengers? And God let people "mess" them up?

And I don't understand why you stay "out" of the loop of the Baha'i community? It's what is supposed to be the model for peace isn't it? And even you don't participate in it? And you know what, I knew a lot of inactive Baha'is... I knew a lot of people that dropped out of the religion, and I knew a lot of Baha'is that stayed active but had problems with the leaders in the community... the LSA members.

So the "model" is not perfect. Because people aren't perfect. It alienated a lot of people. So what is the best we can expect from following God's plan for peace? Imperfection? Selfish, greedy people will use the religion to get into positions of power? Some will take an extreme interpretation of God's laws and become religious authoritarians. Some will be so liberal, that they will be okay with breaking some of the laws... like with sex, drugs and alcohol. And I knew those kind of Baha'is. So I know it is happening. So no matter how "perfect" the message, people, if left to run and put it into practice have always "messed" things up. Why will the people in the Baha'i Faith be any different? How will they bring peace?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My "thing"? You're missing the whole point. Baha'is are supposed to have a plan that will bring peace to the world. But, it is dependent on fallible, imperfect people to put it into practice and make it work. You say that people "messed" up every other message from God. The Baha'i message is dependent on the "extent" Baha'is mirror forth the inner life and private character of the "eternal" principles proclaimed by Baha'u'llah? So we know that no Baha'i will "mirror" those things perfectly. So they have and will be messing things up. But "God" is behind the Cause of Baha'u'llah? And he wasn't behind the Causes of His other messengers? And God let people "mess" them up?
Do you really think any human being can be perfect?
Why do you think they have to mess things up just because they are imperfect?
Sure, people messed up the former religions over time but the reason is because (1) they did not have a written Covenant, and (2) people were not spiritually evolved. We now have a written Covenant and people are more spiritually evolved. Over time Baha'is will become more spiritual, but we are only in the very beginning of this new religious cycle.
And I don't understand why you stay "out" of the loop of the Baha'i community? It's what is supposed to be the model for peace isn't it? And even you don't participate in it? And you know what, I knew a lot of inactive Baha'is... I knew a lot of people that dropped out of the religion, and I knew a lot of Baha'is that stayed active but had problems with the leaders in the community... the LSA members.
I have very good reasons not to participate in the Baha'i community and I do not need to answer to anyone for that decision. I am only responsible to God and I am doing what I think is the moral thing to do right now and what I am able to do. That could change later.
So the "model" is not perfect. Because people aren't perfect. It alienated a lot of people. So what is the best we can expect from following God's plan for peace? Imperfection? Selfish, greedy people will use the religion to get into positions of power? Some will take an extreme interpretation of God's laws and become religious authoritarians. Some will be so liberal, that they will be okay with breaking some of the laws... like with sex, drugs and alcohol. And I knew those kind of Baha'is. So I know it is happening. So no matter how "perfect" the message, people, if left to run and put it into practice have always "messed" things up. Why will the people in the Baha'i Faith be any different? How will they bring peace?
You are dead wrong. The reason people reject the Baha'i Faith is not because of the Baha'is are not perfect, it is because they are attached to their older religions and they do not want a new religion, or if they are nonbelievers they do not like the idea of Messengers of God.

You knew some Baha'is who were selfish and greedy and broke Baha'i Laws but what percentage of the total number of Baha'is do you think that is?

Just because people have always messed things up does not mean they always will. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is a day that will not be followed by night.

“O Temple of Holiness! We, verily, have cleansed Thy breast from the whisperings of the people and sanctified it from earthly allusions, that the light of My beauty may appear therein and be reflected in the mirrors of all the worlds. Thus have We singled Thee out above all that hath been created in the heavens and the earth, and above all that hath been decreed in the realms of revelation and creation, and chosen Thee for Our own Self. This is but an evidence of the bounty which God hath vouchsafed unto Thee, a bounty which shall last until the Day that hath no end in this contingent world. It shall endure so long as God, the Supreme King, the Help in Peril, the Mighty, the Wise, shall endure. For the Day of God is none other but His own Self, Who hath appeared with the power of truth. This is the Day that shall not be followed by night, nor shall it be bounded by any praise, would that ye might understand!” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 34-35

 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Religion is divisive; there can only be one true religion. Consequently, one of two options: (1) all religions will finally be wiped out in a true unity of humankind, or (2) religious wars will destroy the world. But probably there will first be a global civilization collapse and it will be back to the dark ages.

Why does the existence of 'one true religion' entail that its adherents destroy each other? Why does this 'one true religion' exist?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
I did not know unity of religions was a goal of Islam.

I never said it was. I talked about people uniting under the banner of Islam, i.e. everyone becoming Muslim :).

Why not just join us Baha’is, our beliefs are not that different from yours?

:)

Different enough. For a start you accept Messengers after Muhammad (pbuh). And the majority of us aren't going to accept your view that the likes of Muhammad (pbuh) and Yeshua (pbuh) are perfect Manifestations of God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I never said it was. I talked about people uniting under the banner of Islam, i.e. everyone becoming Muslim :)
That amounts to the same thing. If everyone united under the banner of Islam then that would unite all the religions under Islam. :)
Different enough. For a start you accept Messengers after Muhammad (pbuh). And the majority of us aren't going to accept your view that the likes of Muhammad (pbuh) and Yeshua (pbuh) are perfect Manifestations of God.
What is wrong with more Messengers coming after Muhammad? That does not lessen His importance or the importance of His mission. Besides, I thought that Muslims were waiting for the return of Jesus or the Mahdi, depending upon whether you are a Sunni of Shia.

Nobody ever likes the new religion on the block, but we cannot help it if we are new. ;) If people cannot understand why we need a new revelation from God in every new age I do not think they are very logical. The world changes and people change, so why would older religions be suitable for a new age? I do not know why people think that while everything else changes religion should remain static, frozen in time. It does not make any sense.

What is wrong with the idea that Manifestations of God manifest God perfectly? o_O
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you don't think hypocrisy is a primary problem with the followers of a religion? I thought Baha'is had a thing about being doers of the Word and not just hearers? But I don't think that people can or will follow the Baha'i laws perfectly. So who's going to enforce the laws and make judgements against the people breaking the laws of the religion? More fallible people? People that are put in positions of authority? Since they aren't perfect, who's going to follow their rule? If they talk about peace and love but can't live it themselves, who's going to trust them?

If God let all the other religions get messed up by fallible people, how are fallible Baha'is not going to eventually mess things up? In small ways don't they mess up things already? In big ways, haven't some already tried to mess up and take control of the religion? So fallible Baha'is have kicked out those that have tried to take control. But what about in local communities or even at the National level?

I'd imagine that there are small to serious problems between people in power all the time. Do you really think imperfect, fallible people can bring peace? Or, will they mess up another "perfect" message from a "perfect" messenger from God again?

Hello CG hope you are well and happy. :D

We know we will not always get it right, we know that there will be another winter, another Manifestation will come.

But lets enjoy the dawn of a golden age yet to come, we can still choose to be part of that.

Or we can sit on the fence, watching other people at least try, egging them on, telling them to hurry up and fix it all. ;)

Regards Tony
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
What is wrong with more Messengers coming after Muhammad? That does not lessen His importance or the importance of His mission.

Nothing wrong with the idea in principle. It's simply a question of belief. We believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the last (new) Messenger and that no new Messenger is needed.

Besides, I thought that Muslims were waiting for the return of Jesus or the Mahdi, depending upon whether you are a Sunni of Shia.

For those of us who believe in the return of Yeshua (pbuh) (some dispute this), he is not a new Messenger, and he will come to return people to the correct, universal teachings of Muhammad (pbuh). The Mahdi is not a Messenger of the likes of Yeshua (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh).

What is wrong with the idea that Manifestations of God manifest God perfectly?

We believe that God in His Greatness cannot manifest Himself in human form. I do not believe that any of the Messengers were perfect - they were ordinary human beings, with their own flaws.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Or that all other religions would become defunct.

The Quran confirms all the past Messengers so defunct they were not, abrogated they were. The Quran gave the new covernant and law for the age.

Baha'u'llah also confirms all the past Messengers including Muhammad. The Message of Baha'u'llah abrogates all those messages and upholds their spiritual capacity. A new Covenant and law is now applicable for this age.

This has been the way of Allah since creation began, yet man always says there will not be another Message. The Jews and Christains also offer that God will not give another Message, just confirm what they have come to believe.

Regards Tony
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
The Quran confirms all the past Messengers so defunct they were not

The Qur'an doesn't confirm some of your Manifestations of God.

The point about all religions becoming defunct referred to a possible future in which all people become Muslims. In that sense, all other religions would cease to exist as living religions, having no adherents.

Baha'u'llah also confirms all the past Messengers including Muhammad

Confirms in what way?

The Message of Baha'u'llah abrogates all those messages and upholds their spiritual capacity. A new Covenant and law is now applicable for this age.

So you believe. Not I.
 
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