Hindus, Pagans, Wiccans: Comparing Mary and Kali

Sirona · May 19, 2019

I would like to compare Mary and Kali. I wasn't quite sure where to post this. I considered "Comparative Religion", because it probably requires some knowledge in Catholicism. However, I would like only members of non-Abrahamic religions to respond. Moreover, I don't know whether this post may be perceived as "entirely peaceful", so I chose "Same faith debates".

Some see Mary and Kali as the Western and Eastern reflections of the same goddess, but I rather see them as polar opposites who happen to have in common that there are images of Black Madonnas in the West.

Mary

Does surrender to the male god completely
Is mostly shown completely covering her sexual characteristics (yes, there are breast-feeding Madonnas)
Succeeds by adaptation and obedience
Treats the corpse of Jesus very respectfully
Is never given "dark" connotations

Kali

Doesn't surrender to Shiva
Is mostly shown half-naked
Succeeds by giving in to her rage
Dances on the corpse of Shiva
Is associated with the color black.

I know that there are images of breast-feeding Kali, too. And I am not saying that one is one is better than the other. I am just saying they are radically different. So it doesn't occur to me why anybody would get the idea they are images of the same goddess. Maybe because for centuries, Mary used to be the only Goddess available in the West

If I had to find a Hindu goddess most similar to Mary I'd probably choose Lakshmi. AFAIK, she has connotations of light only, and I think SriVaishnavas see her interceding with Vishnu, with her sometimes even holding prayer beads. Mary has a similar function for the Catholics, so if I had to choose between Lakshmi and Kali I'd choose the former. Unless, of course, the blackness is some weird depth psychological thing which escapes me.

Thread open to those who believe in mother goddesses, like Hindus, Pagans, and Wiccans.

Please don't comment if you are a member of an Abrahamic faith or an atheist.

SalixIncendium · May 19, 2019

I'm not sure of the purpose to this exercise.

To me, this is like comparing apples to potatoes. Two different female figures from two very different cultures with radically different qualities. Only one of the two has divine status. While Mary is revered, she is not considered a deity.

Help me to understand the purpose of comparing and contrasting them.

Vinayaka · May 19, 2019

I'm with Salix. Yes, I know the comparison has been done, and I don't know why really, other than to look for some uniformity. We can respect the alternate views without amalgamation. In India, it's done a lot by Catholic evangelicals just to get a foot in the door fro potential conversion. "See, we're a lot like you are." About the only similarity is the fact each is feminine.

Aupmanyav · May 19, 2019

Sirona said:
However, I would like only members of non-Abrahamic religions to respond. Moreover, I don't know whether this post may be perceived as "entirely peaceful", so I chose "Same faith debates".

Kali: Doesn't surrender to Shiva, Is mostly shown half-naked, Succeeds by giving in to her rage, Dances on the corpse of Shiva (It is not a corpse, it was Shiva himself), Is associated with the color black.

Thread open to those who believe in mother goddesses, like Hindus, Pagans, and Wiccans.

Does not matter for me as to where you posted the message. Perfectly peaceful post because we know your interest in Eastern religions. This also is Kali. The Mother does not always ride lions.

Even Mother Saraswati is mentioned in RigVeda as a slayer of Aryan foe, Vritra, the demon of darkness. All Mothers can get angry at those who intend to harm their children.

"Uta syā naḥ sarasvatī ghorā hiraṇyavartaniḥl vṛtraghnī vaṣṭi suṣṭutim ll"
(Yea, this divine Sarasvatī, terrible with her golden path, foe-slayer, claims our eulogy.)
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 6: HYMN LXI. Sarasvatī.

lord-shiva-under-the-feet-of-maa-kaali-indian-miniature-painting-watercolor-artwork-sunrise-flower-ravi-sharma.jpg

Mother Parvati is the Ultimate Mother for me. Kali does surrender to Shiva. Shiva stopped her war frenzy by lying in front of Kali. Kali forgot her frenzy as soon as she placed her feet on Shiva's chest.

Well, I am an atheist, but I have not abandoned my Hindu traditions, therefore, an atheist Hindu. Like Salix and Vinayaka, I too do not like mixing up two totally different traditions.

Sirona · May 19, 2019

Vinayaka said:
I'm with Salix. Yes, I know the comparison has been done, and I don't know why really, other than to look for some uniformity. We can respect the alternate views without amalgamation. In India, it's done a lot by Catholic evangelicals just to get a foot in the door fro potential conversion. "See, we're a lot like you are." About the only similarity is the fact each is feminine.

Hmm, I thought I had made perfectly clear in the OP that I do consider Mary and Kali as radically different entities. I also can understand the concern about Catholic missionaries trying to get a foot in the door with Hindus, although I hadn't thought about that. I rather saw it the other way around, about Western authors trying to explain Kali to a Western audience by taking the Black Madonnas out of context. I've been reading about Shaktism lately, and in my eyes a deity comparable to Kali just doesn't exist in the West.

Vinayaka · May 19, 2019

Sirona said:
Hmm, I thought I had made perfectly clear in the OP that I do consider Mary and Kali as radically different entities. I also can understand the concern about Catholic missionaries trying to get a foot in the door with Hindus, although I hadn't thought about that. I rather saw it the other way around, about Western authors trying to explain Kali to a Western audience by taking the Black Madonnas out of context. I've been reading about Shaktism lately, and in my eyes a deity comparable to Kali just doesn't exist in the West.

I was responding to this part ... not you.

"Some see Mary and Kali as the Western and Eastern reflections of the same goddess,"

Vinidra · May 20, 2019

Sirona said:
in my eyes a deity comparable to Kali just doesn't exist in the West.

I agree with this.

sayak83 · May 21, 2019

Sirona said:
I would like to compare Mary and Kali. I wasn't quite sure where to post this. I considered "Comparative Religion", because it probably requires some knowledge in Catholicism. However, I would like only members of non-Abrahamic religions to respond. Moreover, I don't know whether this post may be perceived as "entirely peaceful", so I chose "Same faith debates".

Some see Mary and Kali as the Western and Eastern reflections of the same goddess, but I rather see them as polar opposites who happen to have in common that there are images of Black Madonnas in the West.

Mary

Does surrender to the male god completely

Is mostly shown completely covering her sexual characteristics (yes, there are breast-feeding Madonnas)

Succeeds by adaptation and obedience

Treats the corpse of Jesus very respectfully

Is never given "dark" connotations

Kali

Doesn't surrender to Shiva

Is mostly shown half-naked

Succeeds by giving in to her rage

Dances on the corpse of Shiva

Is associated with the color black.

I know that there are images of breast-feeding Kali, too. And I am not saying that one is one is better than the other. I am just saying they are radically different. So it doesn't occur to me why anybody would get the idea they are images of the same goddess. Maybe because for centuries, Mary used to be the only Goddess available in the West

If I had to find a Hindu goddess most similar to Mary I'd probably choose Lakshmi. AFAIK, she has connotations of light only, and I think SriVaishnavas see her interceding with Vishnu, with her sometimes even holding prayer beads. Mary has a similar function for the Catholics, so if I had to choose between Lakshmi and Kali I'd choose the former. Unless, of course, the blackness is some weird depth psychological thing which escapes me.

Thread open to those who believe in mother goddesses, like Hindus, Pagans, and Wiccans.

Please don't comment if you are a member of an Abrahamic faith or an atheist.

The problem is that they are so entirely different that they are not even opposites of each other. Maybe the only point of contact is that they are both women to whom some people pray to.

Aupmanyav · May 21, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
"Uta syā naḥ sarasvatī ghorā hiraṇyavartaniḥl vṛtraghnī vaṣṭi suṣṭutim ll"
(Yea, this divine Sarasvatī, terrible with her golden path, foe-slayer, claims our eulogy.)
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 6: HYMN LXI. Sarasvatī.

Better translation:
"Yeah, this divine Sarasvatī, terrible with her golden path, slayer of (demon) Vritra, claims our eulogy."

Mother Kali has no use for diadems and jewels. For her, it is skulls.

dios-hindu-kali-mata-pintura-en-miniatura-de-la-pintura-en-miniatura-ravi-sharma.jpg

Jainarayan · May 21, 2019

I must have missed the memo or staff meeting because I've never heard or read about people making this comparison. :shrug:

syo · Jul 27, 2019

Sirona said:
Some see Mary and Kali as the Western and Eastern reflections of the same goddess,

Mary is the most holy of holy. Isn't Kali too the most powerful goddess?

Hindus, Pagans, Wiccans: Comparing Mary and Kali

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः

Vinayaka

devotee

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe

Vinayaka

devotee

Vinidra

Jai Mata Di!

sayak83

Veteran Member

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

syo

Well-Known Member