war criminals

pearl · May 20, 2019

Just when we think we may have heard the worst Trump there's this
President Trump has indicated that he is considering pardons for several American military members accused or convicted of war crimes, including high-profile cases of murder, attempted murder and desecration of a corpse, according to two United States officials.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/trump-pardons-war-crimes.html

Revoltingest · May 20, 2019

The NYT is speculating in the fashion of "worst case scenario".
"Presidents use pardons to send messages. They recognize when a process wasn’t
just or when punishments were too extreme, like for some nonviolent drug cases,”
she said. “If this president is planning to pardon a bunch of people charged with war
crimes, he will use the pardon power to send a far darker message.”

Let's see who actually receives a pardon, & then decide if he's acting wrongfully.
We can hope that Trump isn't worse than Bill Clinton was, eg, the Marc Rich pardon.
So far....
Pardons Granted by President Donald Trump

Btw, I favor prosecuting & punishing war criminals....& criminals in general.

Stanyon · May 20, 2019

Interesting that they included the Marine snipers urinating on dead taliban fighters, Hillary Clinton wanted them tried for war crimes and they were punished by the Marine corps. I think the worst thing about it was that it could be used by the enemy for propaganda but other than that I couldn't care less about some dead talibans considering what they regularly did to captured enemies and civilians.

Father Heathen · May 20, 2019

Stanyon said:
Interesting that they included the Marine snipers urinating on dead taliban fighters, Hillary Clinton wanted them tried for war crimes and they were punished by the Marine corps. I think the worst thing about it was that it could be used by the enemy for propaganda but other than that I couldn't care less about some dead talibans considering what they regularly did to captured enemies and civilians.

Not that I give a **** about the taliban or their dead, but professionalism and conduct are still important to uphold. We're supposed to be better than those lowly savages, after all.

sun rise · May 20, 2019

Revoltingest said:
Presidents use pardons to send messages.

Yup. From the recent pardon it seems that if you're a friend the odds of being pardoned go way up.

Stanyon said:
care less about some dead talibans considering what they regularly did to captured enemies and civilians.

I want us to be better and not descend to the level of the worst.

Twilight Hue · May 20, 2019

pcarl said:
Just when we think we may have heard the worst Trump there's this
President Trump has indicated that he is considering pardons for several American military members accused or convicted of war crimes, including high-profile cases of murder, attempted murder and desecration of a corpse, according to two United States officials.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/trump-pardons-war-crim

pcarl said:

Just when we think we may have heard the worst Trump there's this

Click to expand...

pcarl said:

President Trump has indicated that he is considering pardons for several American military members accused or convicted of war crimes, including high-profile cases of murder, attempted murder and desecration of a corpse, according to two United States officials.

Click to expand...

pcarl said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/trump-pardons-war-crimes.html

Click to expand...

es.html

It's what soldiers do. That said, It's strictly a UCMJ issue and Trump as Commander and Chief reserves the privilege of Pardons.

Go back to Vietnam with the issues of soldiers having to kill children.

Go back to World War II where SS Waffen flying a white flag were gunned down immediately.

I suspect like usual with the media today, the full story isn't told about conditions and circumstances that war crimes occur. Some are reprehensible and others, you can see where a pardon can be justified and granted when you examine the overall picture and environment where it occurred.

Audie · May 20, 2019

Nowhere Man said:
It's what soldiers do. That said, It's strictly a UCMJ issue and Trump as Commander and Chief reserves the privilege of Pardons.

Go back to Vietnam with the issues of soldiers having to kill children.

Go back to World War II where SS Waffen flying a white flag were gunned down immediately.

I suspect like usual with the media today, the full story isn't told about conditions and circumstances that war crimes occur. Some are reprehensible and others, you can see where a pardon can be justified and granted when you examine the overall picture and environment where it occurred.

There are war crimes, like the rape of nanjing.

There are "war crimes' such as those confessed to
by John Kerry.

American soldiers did things like knocking gold teeth
from living or dead enemy soldiers. I'd imagine none
were ever prosecuted.

"We've a f-ing war to fight." v. "Oh dear, that wont do
for the sitting-room."

Revoltingest · May 20, 2019

Audie said:
There are war crimes, like the rape of nanjing.

There are "war crimes' such as those confessed to
by John Kerry.

American soldiers did things like knocking gold teeth
from living or dead enemy soldiers. I'd imagine none
were ever prosecuted.

"We've a f-ing war to fight." v. "Oh dear, that wont do
for the sitting-room."

Your observation is most cromulent.
I've heard of war crimes committed in the presence of a
friend who spent 2 tours in Vietnam. Most go unnoticed.
To make an example of only a few doesn't seem to have
a useful effect on others.

Stanyon · May 20, 2019

Father Heathen said:
but professionalism and conduct are still important to uphold.

I agree, they should have known better not to film it knowing it could be a propaganda tool for the enemy.

Stanyon · May 20, 2019

Nowhere Man said:
Go back to World War II where SS Waffen flying a white flag were gunned down immediately.

Considering the Wormhoudt massacre, I can completely understand this.

columbus · May 20, 2019

Stanyon said:
I agree, they should have known better not to film it knowing it could be a propaganda tool for the enemy.

Who is the enemy, though?

In my life, the biggest enemy was a Bush. The biggest war criminals in my life were named Bush. The Bushes killed far more people than the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, as an example.

But as @Revoltingest has pointed out more than once, Trump is still president and we don't yet know what he will do.

Tom

Revoltingest · May 20, 2019

columbus said:
Who is the enemy, though?

In my life, the biggest enemy was a Bush. The biggest war criminals in my life were named Bush. The Bushes killed far more people than the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, as an example.

But as @Revoltingest has pointed out more than once, Trump is still president and we don't yet know what he will do.

Tom

Let's hope that his ego doesn't create the need to beat the Bushes or Reagan at their game.

columbus · May 20, 2019

Revoltingest said:
Let's hope that his ego doesn't create the need to beat the Bushes or Reagan at their game.

That's rather weak, given what we know about his ego.
Tom

metis · May 20, 2019

Trump is constantly playing the we v they card, plus he panders to those on the right whenever he gets a chance. His pardons on that are certainly not for any moral purpose.

Stanyon · May 20, 2019

columbus said:
Who is the enemy, though?

People like this?

"YOU must become so notorious for bad things that when you come into an area people will tremble in their sandals. Anyone can do beatings and starve people. I want your unit to find new ways of torture so terrible that the screams will frighten even crows from their nests and if the person survives he will never again have a night's sleep."

source:
I was one of the Taliban's torturers: I crucified people - Telegraph

Taliban treatment of women - Wikipedia

World Report 2018: Afghanistan | Human Rights Watch

columbus · May 20, 2019

Stanyon said:
People like this?

Did people like that cause as much death and destruction as people like the Bush family, and their many political supporters?

Don't get me wrong. I also consider a bunch of Muslims like that war criminals. But Christian war criminals are objectively worse.

And modern USA Republicans don't want to deal with it.
Tom

Ellen Brown · May 20, 2019

Stanyon said:
Interesting that they included the Marine snipers urinating on dead taliban fighters, Hillary Clinton wanted them tried for war crimes and they were punished by the Marine corps. I think the worst thing about it was that it could be used by the enemy for propaganda but other than that I couldn't care less about some dead talibans considering what they regularly did to captured enemies and civilians.

The message is that it's OK to shoot Taliban, just don't brag about it.

Twilight Hue · May 20, 2019

Stanyon said:
Considering the Wormhoudt massacre, I can completely understand this.

Waffen SS were hideously vicious and brutal elite fanatics who gave no quarter towards anybody they came across that they considered an enemy. Their reputation was not unfounded and
considered a serious threat, even at the end of the war.

People have no idea what Navy Seals and Green Berets go through, which needs to be seriously considered as to the circumstances and conditions they were faced with while carrying out their missions. I don't think anybody's going to cry over some dead Taliban no matter what their age in consideration of what they've done to people that dwarfs anything our own elite forces may or may not have done themselves .

It's why I feel it needs to be strictly a military matter of which Trump is now a component of our Armed Forces in his role as commander-in-chief and making that decision whether a pardon is justified or not.

If Trump says that the pardon is warranted for myself anyways, I respect his decision.

Stevicus · May 20, 2019

pcarl said:
Just when we think we may have heard the worst Trump there's this
President Trump has indicated that he is considering pardons for several American military members accused or convicted of war crimes, including high-profile cases of murder, attempted murder and desecration of a corpse, according to two United States officials.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/trump-pardons-war-crimes.html

I recall Captain Willard's line from Apocalypse Now: "Charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500."

I don't know the circumstances of these particular cases, but it's the politicians who created the situation in the first place. I just hope they weren't set up as pawns or scapegoats to cover up the sins of the higher ups.

Kangaroo Feathers · May 20, 2019

Father Heathen said:
Not that I give a **** about the taliban or their dead, but professionalism and conduct are still important to uphold. We're supposed to be better than those lowly savages, after all.

Bastardising the enemy is never a good idea. If not because of human rights and mutual respect, because next time they might be in the position to basardise YOU and turnabout is fair play

war criminals

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