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Pro-Life by most really mean Pro-Birth

The Reverend Bob

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Audie said:
Would you be satisfied that its ok to have
killed you the day before you were born, coz
you were not a person?
Click to expand...
I doubt I would have been conscious of the act if it did happen. I cannot regret or be happy with something that didn't happen. I don't cling to life the way most people do. I view life as neither good nor bad. My world is not black nor white.
 
viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Amanaki said:
No All form of abortion is in my understanding against the law of dhamma. I do not judge those woman who do chose to take abortion, because they can have their reasons. But as a buddhist i would say it is not a moral rightroues thing to do. But again, i can not say what other should say or mean.
Click to expand...

I hope you indulge me if I don’t give a rip about dharma, Gods or whomever when it comes to establish my rights as a woman.

Please prove to me that those spiritual entities exist and then we can discuss. Pending that, I will appeal to secular laws, since there is not such a thing as religious right when it collides with secular law.

Ciao

- viole
 
The Reverend Bob

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Amanaki said:
No All form of abortion is in my understanding against the law of dhamma. I do not judge those woman who do chose to take abortion, because they can have their reasons. But as a buddhist i would say it is not a moral rightroues thing to do. But again, i can not say what other should say or mean.
Click to expand...
All abortions? Does this include those which happen naturally?
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
The Reverend Bob said:
I doubt I would have been conscious of the act if it did happen. I cannot regret or be happy with something that didn't happen. I don't cling to life the way most people do. I view life as neither good nor bad. My world is not black nor white.
Click to expand...

That is just a sidestep of course, but I should
not have put it in terms of your feelings on
the subject.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
viole said:
I hope you indulge me if I don’t give a rip about dharma, Gods or whomever when it comes to establish my rights as a woman.

Please prove to me that those spiritual entities exist and then we can discuss. Pending that, I will appeal to secular laws, since there is no religious right when it collides with secular law.

Ciao

- viole
Click to expand...
You are in your full right to think of feel anything you like about me or anything i do write here, That do not upset me. I dont take it persoanally.
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
Terry Sampson said:
You do realize, don't you? ... that volition, self-awareness, making decisions, acting on its own, and even knowing it is in a womb, are irrelevant. Animals have all that and have long been disposable throughout the U.S. The real question is: When does it have a soul?
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No,that is a phony question.
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
The Reverend Bob said:
I never said a fetus isn't a lifeform. How many times do I have to repeat that? And yes when the offspring is out of her mother's womb and she takes her first breath she is an individual.
Click to expand...

I dont suppose you could grace your posts with,
like, "IMHO"?
 
viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Amanaki said:
You are in your full right to think of feel anything you like about me or anything i do write here, That do not upset me. I dont take it persoanally.
Click to expand...

I think you take life too seriously :)

Ciao

- viole
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The Reverend Bob said:
Does a fetus have volition and self-awareness? Is it capable of making decisions? Does it act on its own? Does it even know it is in a womb?
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Actually, yes, it can act on its own. Sucking their thumb, smiling, moving and responding to the mothers touch.

I believe that Planned Parenthood director Abby Johnson said that the baby even avoided the probe--a decision. Obviously you can't speak audibly in the womb and that is why there was a video about the silent scream.

The good news, as my sister can testify, is that God heals the broken hearted, forgive, restore and begin the process of new life for the living. :)

People who have gone through the experience should never be judged but rather be supported, loved and provide every assistance necessary to recover from the process.
 
The Reverend Bob

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Amanaki said:
if a baby dies a natural death still in mothers womb it is meant to be so, But when a human being is the cause of the baby dies before it is out of the mothers womb then i do not support it.
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What does "meant to be so" mean? Maybe aborting the fetus was "meant to be so". What kind of criteria is "meant to be so"? Who are you to determine what is "meant to be so"? Are you God, son? Are you Mother Nature? Who gave you this right to tell us all what is "meant to be so"? You don't get to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body and you don't get to judge her if or when she decides to either abort or not. You grow a womb first and get pregnant then you can decide whether it is right or wrong for you. Until you can do that, keep your judgements to yourself.
 
T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
The Reverend Bob said:
I am pro-women have a right to body autonomy
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Right, [I knew that already, but I just wanted to make sure you hadn't changed your mind in the last few minutes.
So, you're pro-choice AND you don't believe in souls? Great! Thanks for supporting my previous claim which was:

  • Terry Sampson said:
    You do realize, don't you? ... that volition, self-awareness, making decisions, acting on its own, and even knowing it is in a womb, are irrelevant. Animals have all that and have long been disposable throughout the U.S. The real question is: When does it have a soul?
    Click to expand...
In the future, starting now, consider checking with each pro-lifer who challenges your pro-choice position, and find out [if you can and will] whether your challenger believes that humans have a soul from the moment of conception or not. Then, if you tabulate the numbers and would be so kind, share with me what you find.

I predict:
  • that almost 100% of the folks who believe that human embryos, from the moment of conception, have a "soul" [or something that survives death] will be a pro-lifer,
  • that almost 100% of the folks who do not believe anything a human has, other than external possessions and decaying body parts, continues to exist will be a pro-choicer,
  • that you will encounter some, but very few, "outliers", i.e. (a) pro-choicers, such as myself, who believe that human embryos have souls, and (b) pro-lifers who believe that human embryos do not have souls.
And that's why I said .. "The real question is: When does it have a soul?"

And most importantly, that's why you were wrong. I wasn't barking up the wrong tree. Like I said, "...volition, self-awareness, making decisions, acting on its own, and even knowing it is in a womb, are irrelevant" [i.e. irrelevant in any argument between folks over abortion.]
 
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C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Amanaki said:
No All form of abortion is in my understanding against the law of dhamma.
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My mother and father married in the early 50s, planning a big Catholic family.

Unfortunately for them, their second pregnancy was ectopic. The baby implanted in my mom's fallopian tube. Without a surgical abortion she and the baby would have died. Her death being particularly ugly, as she'd have died because a dead baby was decomposing in her abdomen.
This sort of thing happened quite commonly in the olden days, before modern medicine and surgical abortion.

Your statement, "All form of abortion is in my understanding against the law of dhamma" looks extremely primitive and immoral to me. My mom would have died without an abortion and I wouldn't be here at all.
Tom
 
The Reverend Bob

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Terry Sampson said:
Right, [I knew that already, but I just wanted to make sure you hadn't change your mind in the last few minutes.
So, you're pro-choice AND you don't believe in souls? Great! Thanks for supporting my previous claim which was:

In the future, starting now, consider checking with each pro-lifer who challenges your pro-choice position, and find out [if you can and will] whether your challenger believes that humans have a soul from the moment of conception or not. Then, if you tabulate the numbers and would be so kind, share with me what you find.

I predict:
  • that almost 100% of the folks who believe that human embryos, from the moment of conception, have a "soul" [or something that survives death] will be a pro-lifer,
  • that almost 100% of the folks who do not believe anything a human has, other than external possessions and decaying body parts, continues to exist will be a pro-choicer,
  • that you encounter "outliers", i.e. (a) pro-choicers, such as myself, who believe that human embryos have souls, and (b) pro-lifers who believe that human embryos do not have souls.
And that's why I said .. "The real question is: When does it have a soul?"

And most importantly, that's why you were wrong. I wasn't barking up the wrong tree.
Click to expand...
And where id you get these "scientifically polled numbers" from. I am curious about this one.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
The Reverend Bob said:
What does "meant to be so" mean? Maybe aborting the fetus was "meant to be so". What kind of criteria is "meant to be so"? Who are you to determine what is "meant to be so"? Are you God, son? Are you Mother Nature? Who gave you this right to tell us all what is "meant to be so"? You don't get to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body and you don't get to judge her if or when she decides to either abort or not. You grow a womb first and get pregnant then you can decide whether it is right or wrong for you. Until you can do that, keep your judgements to yourself.
Click to expand...
As a buddhist i understand the law of karma, and in the case where a baby dies a natural way it understood that karma can be a reason why this happend. But where a doctor is doing surgery to remove a living being this is seen as murder,
But as i stated in a nother answer, i do not judge the woman who do choose abortion, it is only a personal understanding that it is not a natural thing to do.

I do not judge you or any other person who might say abortion is ok, that you and others are free to say and mean. But it think for those who are against abortion it should be ok to discuss too.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
columbus said:
My mother and father married in the early 50s, planning a big Catholic family.

Unfortunately for them, their second pregnancy was ectopic. The baby implanted in my mom's fallopian tube. Without a surgical abortion she and the baby would have died. Her death being particularly ugly, as she'd have died because a dead baby was decomposing in her abdomen.
This sort of thing happened quite commonly in the olden days, before modern medicine and surgical abortion.

Your statement, "All form of abortion is in my understanding against the law of dhamma" looks extremely primitive and immoral to me. My mom would have died without an abortion and I wouldn't be here at all.
Tom
Click to expand...
Again, I only stated my view of abortion, i do not judge woman who choose to go on with abortion. Your mother did the right thing in her situation so she should not lose her life. I do understand that choice too.

And i do have compassion for those who must go thru an abortion, specially when it comes to medical issues. So no i am not an evil person. but i do my best to live by the dhamma and if people do no understand my choice, i do not blame them
 
T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
The Reverend Bob said:
And where id you get these "scientifically polled numbers" from. I am curious about this one.
Click to expand...

I pulled 'em outta my arse. Want to bet on it? I've got $50.00 that says my prediction of what you'll find, if you bother to survey your challengers, will prove to be true. Are you game for it?
 
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