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ISIS as Salafī, or why this label is accurate

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
deciding who counts as "true" Muslims is a very sensitive yet much necessary part of that.

That idea is also present in Christianity with some labeling Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses and liberal Christians as not being "true" Christians.

Before the Republican Party became the Trump Party, we heard a lot about RINO Republicans which is the same psychological tendency in the political sphere.

The fundamental nature of the problem can be illustrated by this: only members of my tribe are OK. The rest of you are wrong and evil and to be dealt with.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I recall growing up and hearing all sorts of nonsense about Catholics from my Protestant family and hearing them profess how Catholics aren't Christian in the slightest bit. Despite the fact they built the very backbone of Christianity to this day.

SPITTING JUST MORE OF IT 2019

Israel's Interior Minister: 'Stop Spitting on Christians'
Avraham Poraz, Israel's interior minister, today [2004-10-13] issued a half-hearted statement condemning an increase in attacks on Christian clergy. Poraz urged Jews to "stop the repeated attacks on the religious minority."

It seems that the tradition of spitting on the cross is getting media attention outside of Israel, and fears are that it might damage the ethno-state's image.

The latest incident was last Sunday, when a Jew spit on a cross carried by Armenian archbishop Nourhan Manougian. The attack led to a scuffle in which the archbishop's medallion, worn by Armenian archbishops since the 17th century, was broken
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

by Amiram Barkat
A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.

The clergyman preferred not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind. For the most part, they ignore it but sometimes they cannot.

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/spitting.htm
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
HOLY SPIT: WHY DO ULTRA-ORTHODOX JEWS SPIT AT CHRISTIANS?
A very embarrassing and persistent problem has arisen in some of the sacred sites in Jerusalem where Christians and Jews cross each other’s paths. Teenagers from a small sector of the city’s many Ultra-Orthodox (“Haredi”) Ashkenazi Jewish communities have taken to spitting at clerics wearing prominent crosses and dressed in traditional garb.
https://tinyurl.com/j77w4jd
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It's "Normal" for Jews to Spit on Christians in Jerusalem, says Top Catholic

Gandalf, Google “spitting on Christians”

Then tell me what you found-?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That idea is also present in Christianity with some labeling Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses and liberal Christians as not being "true" Christians.

Before the Republican Party became the Trump Party, we heard a lot about RINO Republicans which is the same psychological tendency in the political sphere.

The fundamental nature of the problem can be illustrated by this: only members of my tribe are OK. The rest of you are wrong and evil and to be dealt with.

Esp if they are POT (Party of Trump)
 

Gandalf

Horn Tooter
SPITTING JUST MORE OF IT 2019

Israel's Interior Minister: 'Stop Spitting on Christians'
Avraham Poraz, Israel's interior minister, today [2004-10-13] issued a half-hearted statement condemning an increase in attacks on Christian clergy. Poraz urged Jews to "stop the repeated attacks on the religious minority."

It seems that the tradition of spitting on the cross is getting media attention outside of Israel, and fears are that it might damage the ethno-state's image.

The latest incident was last Sunday, when a Jew spit on a cross carried by Armenian archbishop Nourhan Manougian. The attack led to a scuffle in which the archbishop's medallion, worn by Armenian archbishops since the 17th century, was broken
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

by Amiram Barkat
A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.

The clergyman preferred not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind. For the most part, they ignore it but sometimes they cannot.

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/spitting.htm
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
HOLY SPIT: WHY DO ULTRA-ORTHODOX JEWS SPIT AT CHRISTIANS?
A very embarrassing and persistent problem has arisen in some of the sacred sites in Jerusalem where Christians and Jews cross each other’s paths. Teenagers from a small sector of the city’s many Ultra-Orthodox (“Haredi”) Ashkenazi Jewish communities have taken to spitting at clerics wearing prominent crosses and dressed in traditional garb.
https://tinyurl.com/j77w4jd
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It's "Normal" for Jews to Spit on Christians in Jerusalem, says Top Catholic

Gandalf, Google “spitting on Christians”

Then tell me what you found-?

My search has led me to the most anti Christian behavior on behalf of Jews. Surprising although I must sympathize with many Jews as their entire religion is woven into their culture.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That idea is also present in Christianity with some labeling Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses and liberal Christians as not being "true" Christians.

Before the Republican Party became the Trump Party, we heard a lot about RINO Republicans which is the same psychological tendency in the political sphere.

The fundamental nature of the problem can be illustrated by this: only members of my tribe are OK. The rest of you are wrong and evil and to be dealt with.
Yep. It is deeply disappointing that such ideas get so much free reign in some circles.

It is even more disappointing that no clear challenge to them seems to have manifested in the Muslim society at large.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
While ISIS has generally been classified by outside observers as belonging to the tradition of “Salafī-Jihādism,” a term first coined in 2002, some, mainly Sunni (and often Salafī) Muslims themselves, have disputed such a label, and have instead advocated for the classification of ISIS as a “Khawārij” movement. Now, as a Shīʿī Muslim, I am going to offer my perspective on why it is incorrect to classify ISIS as Khawārij and why the term Salafī is indeed accurate when applied to them.

The main reason I take issue with calling ISIS a Khawārij movement is the nature of the term khawārij itself. But what does it mean? Literally, it means ‘those who exit,’ first referring to those who deserted from the army of ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib after his arbitration with Muʿāwiyah. Later, however, the term became much more general and much more polemical in its usage, and heresiographers began to use it to refer to any group of Muslims who rebelled against a Muslim ruler. This is similar compared to the evolution of the word jihād. Originally, it had a very specific meaning, but now it is used generally to refer to any military action which is perceived as unjust or any act of terrorism perpetrated by self-declared Muslims. When we as Muslims are so careful with the word jihād, and so quickly rush to condemn the usage of it to refer to senseless murder (the Arabic word for that is istiʿrāḍ), then we should also be careful with our usage of the term khawārij as well.

The Khawārij were not engaged in the senseless murder (istiʿrāḍ) of which early Muslim heresiographers (namely Ibn Ḥazm) accused them, and frankly, neither is ISIS today. These groups acted and are acting according to a complex ideology and theology, which is obvious to anyone who has read al-Najī’s Management of Savagery (Idārat al-tawaḥḥush), but since this fact has already been explained by researchers much more knowledgeable and articulate than myself, I will not go into much detail about that. The simple reality is that these groups cannot truly be understood unless they are understood as rational actors, and it is in fact incorrect to portray them as irrational actors, as Michael Scheuer has pointed out in his book Imperial Hubris (p. 114):
The term khawārij, which, in the Muslim conscience, principally denotes a group on the path of istiʿrāḍ, only contributes to furthering such a misunderstanding of the terrorist as a “madman, bloodthirsty, and irrational” (Ibid., p. 110), ignoring not only the political context and motivations behind the terrorist act as well as the possible religious beliefs of the terrorist, which is especially accurate in this case. Moreover, we should be careful not to kid ourselves in saying, “ISIS has nothing to do with Islam,” (or in a more general sense, that religious violence has nothing to do with religion) since ISIS very much has a lot to do with Islam (and religious violence a lot to do with religion), and saying otherwise merely blinds us to the reality of the negative elements within this ummah. For such elements cannot be purged and prevented from further arising unless identified as they are, unless we are willing to call a spade, a spade.

Now, of course, if you are defining Islam from a religious point of view as submission to God, then there is of course a sharp distinction between “true Islam” and heresy and innovation (bidʿah), but from a critical, sociological perspective, such a definition does not work, since the researcher must be objective. ISIS certainly considers themselves as Muslims — in fact, as the only true Muslims (one reason for their classification as Khawārij) — but even from a religious standpoint, this definition is problematic within religious dialogue. To declare ISIS as Khawārij and therefore non-Muslim brings us to the problem of “Who is a Muslim?” which is yet to be truly resolved despite all efforts, and it also represents a tendency which is generally ascribed to the Khawārij. They, and ISIS, are infamous for their takfīr, and it is said that since they engage in such a practice they are linked to the Khawārij. However, if you declare ISIS as non-Muslim, you are thereby engaging in an act of takfīr yourself, even if they are engaged in clear-cut kufr. Almost every sect of Islam holds themselves to be the only true Muslims, hence the prevalence of the famous ‘Hadith of the Seventy-three Sects,’ which predicts that the ummah will divide into seventy-three principal sects of which only one will be saved. This is thus not an element unique to the Khawārij and the presence of such a characteristic within the theology of ISIS lends no credence to the Khawārij label. The very act of defining ‘Muslim’ according to any kind of definition stricter than “one who claims to be Muslim” is itself an act on the verge of takfīr, which is the declaration of a self-professed Muslim to be a non-Muslim.

Thus, if ISIS does not represent the Khawārij anymore than they represent Muslims as a whole, as we should agree, then who do they represent? The simple answer is that they represent none other than who they claim to be — Salafī-Jihādīs, since their doctrines are by no means no innovation in a purely historical sense. They have extracted these ideas directly from the writings of scholars so eminent among the Salafīs as Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb and in fact criticise the Saudi government and modern self-proclaimed Salafīs in their publications for not taking these ideas to their logical end.

One cannot label ISIS as Khawārij unless one also labels Salafīs as Khawārij, since the main three elements of the Khawārij as noted by scholars such as al-Yaʿqūbī in his book Refuting ISIS, namely: (1) khurūj (insurrection), (2) takfīr (excommunication), and (3) istiʿrāḍ (indiscriminate murder) are not unique at all to classified terrorist groups but prevalent among Salafīs of all stripes, particularly among the so-called ‘moderate’ Syrian rebels and their armchair supporters in the West and elsewhere.

From their perspective, their rebellion against Assad is not an unlawful khurūj against a Muslim ruler, since they do not believe Assad to be a Muslim ruler at all but rather an apostate (murtadd), unbeliever (kāfir), and polytheist (mushrik), since Assad is from an Alawite family. Of course, by all indications, the Assad family does not hold any Alawite religious beliefs and are standard Sunnīs, and neither do many Syrian Alawites do to the ‘Sunnification’ project enacted by Hafez al-Assad. There are two problems, however: (1) Assad’s government is secular, and (2) he is nevertheless from an Alawite family and enjoys support from the majority of the Alawites in Syria. The Salafī rebels (including ISIS and al-Qaeda) have therefore declared him an apostate for his failure to implement the sharīʿah as the law of the land and have declared him guilty of shirk by reason of this and his association with the Alawite minority. Certain sects of the Khawārij had no different of a methodology. If a Muslim ruler was sinful, it was permissible to engage in khurūj against him, and the simple proof of this is their own actions in supporting the murder of ʿUthmān and in rebelling against ʿAlī. Likewise, the Salafīs engage in takfīr in claiming themselves to be the “saved sect” to the exclusion of all others, and their merciless violence and enmity towards the non-Sunnīs of Syria is well-known.

If, therefore, you desire to apply the label of Khawārij to ISIS, then you should also be comfortable in applying it to these Salafī-Takfīrīs, whose behaviour in Syria, where they actually back up their words with action unlike these armchair Salafīs in the West, is near-identical to that of the Khawārij as depicted by Muslim heresiographers.

As Salaam Alaikum:

What ISIS did and is still doing makes me ill. In speaking to other Muslims, none of them believe that ISIS dogs are even the worst sort of Muslims. The information I have is that they neither prayed or had Qurans.

I will not do them the honor of naming them. They are Dogs of the worst sort to me.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
That idea is also present in Christianity with some labeling Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses and liberal Christians as not being "true" Christians.

Before the Republican Party became the Trump Party, we heard a lot about RINO Republicans which is the same psychological tendency in the political sphere.

The fundamental nature of the problem can be illustrated by this: only members of my tribe are OK. The rest of you are wrong and evil and to be dealt with.


Generally speaking, for me, mainstream Christians believe the same thing, for the most part. It is my personal decision to avoid even speaking to JW folk, but not to harass them. I've attended Catholic Services, but in the future do not plan to seek counsel from one of their Priests. Mormon sisters saved my life, but their leadership made me understand that I will never be acceptable, and eventually caused me to view organized religion with a jaundiced eye.

"Forsake not the gathering together", Heb 10:25 is an admonishment, not an order as some cranky old men want to make it. It is OK to dump church, but do not stop worshipping the Creator.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The information I have is that they neither prayed or had Qurans.

Which makes them non-Muslim or one’s with a coat of many colors which reminds me of this—

Israeli intelligence service, Mossad, has confirmed that the Israeli art students were, in fact, part of a major Israeli intelligence operation and that they were conducting surveillance of the activities of the 9-11 hijackers. They also worked with the Israeli Urban Moving System employees in New Jersey who were seen in at least two Jersey City locations -- Liberty State Park and The Doric apartment building -- celebrating the impact of the first plane into the World Trade Center.

The Israelis at Liberty State Park were dressed in Arab-style clothing when they were witnessed celebrating the first attack. The FBI later confiscated a videotape they filmed of the first attack.

conducting surveillance of the activities of the 9-11 hijackers
CNN.com - Hijackers conducted surveillance flights ahead of 9/11 - Sep. 27, 2002
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
One thing that baffles me about this is the prevailing notion that ISIS is somehow not a Muslim organization. It doesn't mean its an ideal Islamic group yet alone a true Kilafah, plenty of very legitimate religious sects are heavily shunned inwardly by the own outer group. Look at the divide Protestants have had with Catholics.

I recall growing up and hearing all sorts of nonsense about Catholics from my Protestant family and hearing them profess how Catholics aren't Christian in the slightest bit. Despite the fact they built the very backbone of Christianity to this day.

ISIS is Muslim, nobody said anything about them being knowledgeable Muslims yet alone righteous Muslims

My family would NEVER say such stupid things about Catholics, but I did hear it none the less.... Human beings certainly haven't gotten any kinder or smarter.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What ISIS did and is still doing makes me ill. In speaking to other Muslims, none of them believe that ISIS dogs are even the worst sort of Muslims. The information I have is that they neither prayed or had Qurans.
I think what you are saying here is so very important. How a person behaves ( "What ISIS did and is still doing" ) should be the metric. Whether or not terrorists label themselves "Muslims" is a distraction.
 

Gandalf

Horn Tooter
Netanyahu says Israel is the only secular country in the middle east

Gandalf, is he right-?
:)-

Well at one point one could say Syria was although it was built on the facade of avoiding civil war, which ultimately happened nonetheless. Syria was already religiously segregated on a social and political level for a reason and now that it is broken we have ISIS.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Well at one point one could say Syria was although it was built on the facade of avoiding civil war, which ultimately happened nonetheless. Syria was already religiously segregated on a social and political level for a reason and now that it is broken we have ISIS.

Lines for maps were not drawn to accomodate
tribal intetests. Surpriding it took so long for it
to erupt.
 

Gandalf

Horn Tooter
Lines for maps were not drawn to accomodate
tribal intetests. Surpriding it took so long for it
to erupt.

Funny people to not give Assad credit for being a minority ruling over a majority with no affiliation to himself. America love inflating other leaders as dictators often and its sickening. A bad leader is not the same as a tyrant
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Without a Caliph can there even be a consensus on who is Khawārij? I ask as a lot of history around Khawārij is tied to a Caliphate be it the early or later monarchy system.
I hear all this talk about ISIS; while no one talks about where they are getting their funding or what country they came from or who is supplying their arms?

If they were representing a “country” we would know it; but they are not, so who are they, where is the money coming from; what is their goal?

In my search for these answers this is what I found. Please post your comments while proving the evidence I found to be false.

ISIS, Israel, Iraq, And Syria: It’s All Part Of The Plan--?
Putin Aide Says Israel is Training ISIS
Putin Aide Says Israel is Training ISIS

Updated: Israeli General Captured in Iraq Confesses to Israel-Isis Coalition\“There is a strong cooperation between MOSSAD and ISIS top military commanders...Israeli advisors helping the Organization on laying out strategic and military plans, and guiding them in the battlefield”
https://tinyurl.com/ycwr8oaa

UN Report Reveals How Israel is Coordinating with ISIS Militants Inside Syria
https://tinyurl.com/y8nv6tqw

ISIS is a Creation of the Mossad
Site Offline

If you find this unbelievable, just saying so isn’t enough.

Please prove it here and now!
:)-


VT is a fake news propaganda website.... You have nothing.
 
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