OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
Then why are you wasting your time on religiousforums, in the Scriptural Debates arena?
Aren't there any cartoons on?
Or are you a Pharisee.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Development of the New Testament
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Then why are you wasting your time on religiousforums, in the Scriptural Debates arena?
Aren't there any cartoons on?
Or are you a Pharisee.
Skwim
Veteran Member
No waste at all. I'm here to help clear up the many misconceptions and interpretations Christians have about the contents of their Bible and their beliefs. For instance, speaking about scripture they say might X supports Y, and I will say, well what about Z? You can't simply dismiss Z as irrelevant, because it is relevant---cherry picking is almost second nature to you folk. OR see post 28 where I helped member 1213 get up to speed.
It's all in a day's work too help my fellow man.
.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
No waste at all. I'm here to help clear up the many misconceptions and interpretations Christians have about the contents of their Bible and their beliefs.
It's all in a day's work too help my fellow man.
.
But the Bible upon which our faith rests means less than nothing to you?
You must think all Biblicists are fools.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Actually, in as much as it's a source of a lot of misguided, even harmful, knowledge, and it's the basis of a lot of abhorrent behavior, it is kind of important.
Biblicists, yes. Other Christians, just misguided by their need.You must think all Biblicists are fools.
.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
In other words, "ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."(Matthew 23)
________________________
I see this same kind of behavior in every thread where the Bible is confused with Canon&Dogma.
But rather than actually helping discern the words of Ieseus apart from the commentary and false hearsay, you toss all of it under the bus, and along with it, the people who might actually want to be known by Ieseus. How are you any different from the Pharisees Ieseus condemns?
Last edited:
It shows that you have very poor knowledge of the solutions to the synoptic problem.
The Christological and theological purposes of the authors of the New Testament were precisely the reason why they abused and spoiled the original teachings of Yeshua the Nazarene, as can now be clearly seen by comparing their end products to the reconstructed original text (as propounded by Yeshua himself).
In your attempt to present a no frills Jesus you have deliberately set aside the fact that the "Q" source material is presented within the Gospels, especially Luke, faithfully. The point of departure for you is the D/R not detailed in Q, which is an argument from silence.
Do you not realize the 'theology' of "Q"? The Kingdom of God and the love of enemy and spirit. That's what theology presents, the God within.
Whether the Cynic philosopher of Q or the iterant
eschatological Jewish prophet of the NT whose original disciples knew him only as such, and whom the non-apostolic Hellenistic church deified as the Son of God: Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God and the love of enemy, the Wisdom of God.
Interestingly, referring to Jesus as Wisdom 'sophia' in Greek, has feminine characteristics. The early Christians applied feminine images to the male Jesus!
The "Q" source is the gospel without narrative.
The Jesus of Q is not a Cynic philosopher nor an iterant
eschatological Jewish prophet but a realized spiritual Master (at one with the Beloved Father) who teaches mystic practices to His followers.
Jesus did not proclaim the Kingdom of God to his followers, rather that is what later Christians started doing projecting it back onto their Christ Jesus, but he did teach to his close (initiated) followers how to realize the Rule of God in their own consciousness (by expanding it into the Holy Spirit as a mustard seed expands into a bush or tree).
The 'Kingdom of God' is the Rule of or Reign of God which Jesus proclaimed as inaugurated by him 'in your midst', the NT proclaimed Jesus.
Last edited:
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Development of the New Testament
How could one from Agnosticism know about the development of the New Testament?
Does one has any Agnosticism source of that period with one?
Regards
How could one from Agnosticism know about the development of the New Testament?
Does one has any Agnosticism source of that period with one?
Regards
Skwim
Veteran Member
We of Agnosticism have learned how to read.
Don't understand your question. Sorry.
.
This idea of "a Christ" giving a tradition to "Apostles" is a myth which the Church of the bishops itself invented. There is no proof that the original Jesus had any intention of creating a religion like Christianity nor do we know anything about the historical thruth of actual so-called apostles produced by an original Jesus mission. This myth was created on purpose to create the illusion that there was continuitiy between the ideological teachings of Jesus and those of the Christian Church. In fact, when analysed, that continuity is a lie, a fabrication by the Church.
r2d2009
Member
Christianity as an earthly organization does not allow for the acquisition of ancient texts and new revelations.
However, there are any.
For example, the apocryphal Gospel of Philip, found in 1945, and the "Book of Jesus" dictated to Ben Cullen.
There is also the modern "The Gospel of Martha", Recorded by Anna Zubkova.
Perhaps the most important confirmation of Christian truths is the practice of Hesychasm, which gives a tangible result and an opportunity to feel the spiritual world.
However, there are any.
For example, the apocryphal Gospel of Philip, found in 1945, and the "Book of Jesus" dictated to Ben Cullen.
There is also the modern "The Gospel of Martha", Recorded by Anna Zubkova.
Perhaps the most important confirmation of Christian truths is the practice of Hesychasm, which gives a tangible result and an opportunity to feel the spiritual world.
r2d2009
Member
Anna Zubkova
The Gospel of Martha
Recorded by Anna Zubkova.
Edited by Vladimir Antonov.
This Gospel is narrated by Martha, one of those Disciples of Jesus Christ who have attained the Divinity.
Jesus: “Oh, how I wish I could teach
each person to cognize the Heavenly Father
with his or her open loving heart!”
Chapter 1.
The First Meeting with Jesus
For about two thousand years, I, Martha, dreamed of telling people about what I was a witness to when Jesus was incarnated on the Earth. I did not have time to write down my Gospel during my life in the body. But now — I have the opportunity for this.
… The first time I saw Jesus was when my younger sister Mary was about to be stoned due to the accusation against her of adultery, and He protected her.
At that time, I saw Jesus as only a man: a little strange, not like everyone else, and — wise.
The fullness of His Majesty only gradually opened before me then.
… The family, in which I was born and grew up, was pious. Our parents educated us in the strictness of the rules and rites that were adopted in Judea back then.
There were three children in our family: my elder brother Lazarus, me, and my younger sister Mary.
All Jews at that time were sure that we were “God’s chosen people” and that soon the Messiah will appear for us — the Great Savior, the King sent from above. He will come only to us: to the sons and daughters of Israel. He will liberate us! He will be — the spiritual wise King! And all, who “correctly” believe, perfectly perform rituals, and fulfill the Jewish law recorded in the ancient scriptures, will be happy.
… But, in fact, in reality, everything happened just the opposite: the Messiah had come, but only a few recognized Him…
The Teachings of Jesus confused and frightened the priests! The miracles, performed by God through Him, were often called by the priests as a deception. It used to happen that they said in the synagogues that it was as if He specially ordered healthy people to pretend to be sick — so that later, in front of the crowds, they could demonstrate the healing… And therefore there were no miracles, in which the blind see, and the paralyzed rise and walk…
Or else they said that He heals “by the forces of evil”…
And He “violates observance of the Sabbath” — specifically to pervert the people!
A lot of different rumors then were flying around about Jesus.
And many wanted to see and hear Him only out of curiosity. And still others wished only to be healed of their diseases…
But there were also those who heard in the speeches of Jesus the Message from God — for all people and for themselves personally! They accepted what He taught! And they learned from Him.
… By this time, which we are talking about, our parents had long since been dead. Lazarus was the head of the family, I led the household. And Mary… — she was then still so young and frivolous!…
She fell in love with a married man… And, no matter how we cursed her, no matter how we reproached her, no matter how we forbade her, she secretly met with that person.
* * *
On that day, I was overcome with worry: Mary did not come home at all that night, the day had already come, but still she had not returned!
And now, outside, at some distance from our house, a crowd gathered and angry cries began to be heard…
Unable to withstand the alarm, I ran out of the house, saw what was happening — and began to call my brother:
“Lazarus, come quickly here, look: our sister is there! All these people have gathered around Mary! They seem to want to stone her and convict her as a harlot! They are tearing at her hair and clothes!…
“Oh, do something! Let’s go there soon! Stop them! Yes, she is dissipated and sinful, but this is too much! They’ll kill her now! Come soon!
“Look! There, next to her, a man has appeared… He has stopped the crowd — and people dispersed … And Mary — is crying at his feet…”
… That was the first time I saw Jesus. Everything was happening too far away, and I could not hear His words. But the crowd, excited by the anger, abruptly died down — just as if a storm had stopped suddenly in a few moments at sea.
Jesus shielded Mary with His body and began to speak.
Jesus was in light simple robes, all His movements were soft and smooth. A little curly hair a bit below the shoulders somehow especially shone in the sun, His appearance radiated a gentle peace. This was felt by me already then, right away, at first sight, although I certainly did not understand the cause of His impact on the souls of those people who were nearby.
… He helped Mary to rise from the ground.
The crowd dispersed.
Jesus was gently embracing weeping Mary by the shoulders, and His disciples were coming towards us.
Lazarus and I rushed to meet them.
Lazarus said:
“Thank you! You have saved our sister! Come to our house! You will be — a desired guest! And you will always be dear to our hearts! Come in!”
“I’m not alone: these people are my friends, they are with Me!”
“We will be happy to host all of you! Let the doors of our house always be open to you! Come quickly, or else those haters will return!”
“They will not return: they have thought about many things!…
“Now they have noticed sins in themselves! And now they will have time to eliminate the vices in themselves, instead of throwing themselves in anger for denouncing the sins of other people, while considering themselves righteous!”
… Jesus, who carefully supported Mary, who could barely stand on her feet after what she had gone through, entered after Lazarus into the house. They were followed by His disciples.
I followed too, still full of emotions from what had happened.
Lazarus asked:
“What is your name, my respectable guest?”
“Jesus.”
“So are You the Teacher, to Whom the people are flocking to listen?”
“Not at once you will understand who I am… But, if you want, I’ll tell you a little already now.”
… Lazarus led the guests into the room and I brought some treats.
Jesus began a conversation about the purification of the soul.
Mary was sitting on the floor, bending at His feet and covering with hands her face wet from tears.
Tears of Mary fell on the feet of Jesus. She dried them with her beautiful thick hair…
Jesus touched Mary’s head with a caress and stroked gently. Then He continued to speak, addressing to all, about the true repentance and purification of the soul:
“These tears of repentance are meaningful! They are more expensive than the best incense and fragrant oils!
“Not tears themselves, of course, but the repentance — for it is necessary to be exposed before God and freed from the vices of the soul!
“It is precisely the purification of the soul that is needed — to learn to see, hear, and understand God!
“This is what John taught the people about.
“Did you, Lazarus, hear the sermons of Prophet John, Whom the people called the ‘Baptist’?”
“No… I did not.”
“John said that the time is near! And — one, who has not purified the soul, cannot recognize the Messiah and accept Him! And — God’s Grace will not touch all those who are hardened in vices and sins, who only consider themselves as righteous and therefore avoid purifying themselves-souls from vices. They will remain deaf to the Truth! Their spiritual eyes will be blind, and they will not see the Light!
“The Messiah will come and choose only those who have prepared their own vessels of souls: they who have poured the filth out of themselves and have washed the soul by the pure waters of repentance! And then in these souls, the One Who baptizes with Fire will ignite the Flame of the Divine Love!
“John said that He prepares people for the reception of the Divine Light — through the aspiration to God in hearts and in thoughts, and also through the purification by repentance. For even the Messiah will not save the one who does not personally rush to save oneself-soul from the severity of vices!
“If for someone, the wealth of the material world is more important than the jewels of the spiritual life — even God, Who came to the Earth in the body, will seem to them only as strange man or even worse — a tempter leading people away from the dogmas of the faith of their ancestors!
“The Messiah-Savior can only show people the Way to salvation and manifest Oneself as an example of Purity and Light. Also — He will talk about how to achieve the life in Harmony and Oneness with the Heavenly Father.
“The Messiah-Savior offers His Help only to those who can and want to approach God by the quality of themselves-souls. He will not save anyone else from their own destinies, created by themselves!”
“So You’re the Savior?” — Lazarus asked stunned.
“You said so… Do not rush, listen to Me! And on the works, which are done through Me, look! You will understand yourself, when you want, who I am…”
“But what can I do to purify the soul today? Please tell me!”
“Forgive your sister Mary! For she is no longer guilty! She has understood what was bad in her thoughts and deeds and she has repented — and has rushed to the clean life!
“Her repentance is sincere! And therefore — God forgives her!”
… Jesus looked at me in some special way, as if He saw how much resentment and discontent with Mary had accumulated in me for a long time. He said:
“You too, Martha, forgive her!
“She, in fact, wanted and sought love! Therefore, she neglected the morality that has been instituted here, and caused to you so much anxiety.
“Forgive her — and do not remember that Mary, who, in your opinion, was sinful! By freeing the soul from the dirt of condemnation in such a way, you both will get closer to your own purification!”
The Gospel of Martha
Recorded by Anna Zubkova.
Edited by Vladimir Antonov.
This Gospel is narrated by Martha, one of those Disciples of Jesus Christ who have attained the Divinity.
Jesus: “Oh, how I wish I could teach
each person to cognize the Heavenly Father
with his or her open loving heart!”
Chapter 1.
The First Meeting with Jesus
For about two thousand years, I, Martha, dreamed of telling people about what I was a witness to when Jesus was incarnated on the Earth. I did not have time to write down my Gospel during my life in the body. But now — I have the opportunity for this.
… The first time I saw Jesus was when my younger sister Mary was about to be stoned due to the accusation against her of adultery, and He protected her.
At that time, I saw Jesus as only a man: a little strange, not like everyone else, and — wise.
The fullness of His Majesty only gradually opened before me then.
… The family, in which I was born and grew up, was pious. Our parents educated us in the strictness of the rules and rites that were adopted in Judea back then.
There were three children in our family: my elder brother Lazarus, me, and my younger sister Mary.
All Jews at that time were sure that we were “God’s chosen people” and that soon the Messiah will appear for us — the Great Savior, the King sent from above. He will come only to us: to the sons and daughters of Israel. He will liberate us! He will be — the spiritual wise King! And all, who “correctly” believe, perfectly perform rituals, and fulfill the Jewish law recorded in the ancient scriptures, will be happy.
… But, in fact, in reality, everything happened just the opposite: the Messiah had come, but only a few recognized Him…
The Teachings of Jesus confused and frightened the priests! The miracles, performed by God through Him, were often called by the priests as a deception. It used to happen that they said in the synagogues that it was as if He specially ordered healthy people to pretend to be sick — so that later, in front of the crowds, they could demonstrate the healing… And therefore there were no miracles, in which the blind see, and the paralyzed rise and walk…
Or else they said that He heals “by the forces of evil”…
And He “violates observance of the Sabbath” — specifically to pervert the people!
A lot of different rumors then were flying around about Jesus.
And many wanted to see and hear Him only out of curiosity. And still others wished only to be healed of their diseases…
But there were also those who heard in the speeches of Jesus the Message from God — for all people and for themselves personally! They accepted what He taught! And they learned from Him.
… By this time, which we are talking about, our parents had long since been dead. Lazarus was the head of the family, I led the household. And Mary… — she was then still so young and frivolous!…
She fell in love with a married man… And, no matter how we cursed her, no matter how we reproached her, no matter how we forbade her, she secretly met with that person.
* * *
On that day, I was overcome with worry: Mary did not come home at all that night, the day had already come, but still she had not returned!
And now, outside, at some distance from our house, a crowd gathered and angry cries began to be heard…
Unable to withstand the alarm, I ran out of the house, saw what was happening — and began to call my brother:
“Lazarus, come quickly here, look: our sister is there! All these people have gathered around Mary! They seem to want to stone her and convict her as a harlot! They are tearing at her hair and clothes!…
“Oh, do something! Let’s go there soon! Stop them! Yes, she is dissipated and sinful, but this is too much! They’ll kill her now! Come soon!
“Look! There, next to her, a man has appeared… He has stopped the crowd — and people dispersed … And Mary — is crying at his feet…”
… That was the first time I saw Jesus. Everything was happening too far away, and I could not hear His words. But the crowd, excited by the anger, abruptly died down — just as if a storm had stopped suddenly in a few moments at sea.
Jesus shielded Mary with His body and began to speak.
Jesus was in light simple robes, all His movements were soft and smooth. A little curly hair a bit below the shoulders somehow especially shone in the sun, His appearance radiated a gentle peace. This was felt by me already then, right away, at first sight, although I certainly did not understand the cause of His impact on the souls of those people who were nearby.
… He helped Mary to rise from the ground.
The crowd dispersed.
Jesus was gently embracing weeping Mary by the shoulders, and His disciples were coming towards us.
Lazarus and I rushed to meet them.
Lazarus said:
“Thank you! You have saved our sister! Come to our house! You will be — a desired guest! And you will always be dear to our hearts! Come in!”
“I’m not alone: these people are my friends, they are with Me!”
“We will be happy to host all of you! Let the doors of our house always be open to you! Come quickly, or else those haters will return!”
“They will not return: they have thought about many things!…
“Now they have noticed sins in themselves! And now they will have time to eliminate the vices in themselves, instead of throwing themselves in anger for denouncing the sins of other people, while considering themselves righteous!”
… Jesus, who carefully supported Mary, who could barely stand on her feet after what she had gone through, entered after Lazarus into the house. They were followed by His disciples.
I followed too, still full of emotions from what had happened.
Lazarus asked:
“What is your name, my respectable guest?”
“Jesus.”
“So are You the Teacher, to Whom the people are flocking to listen?”
“Not at once you will understand who I am… But, if you want, I’ll tell you a little already now.”
… Lazarus led the guests into the room and I brought some treats.
Jesus began a conversation about the purification of the soul.
Mary was sitting on the floor, bending at His feet and covering with hands her face wet from tears.
Tears of Mary fell on the feet of Jesus. She dried them with her beautiful thick hair…
Jesus touched Mary’s head with a caress and stroked gently. Then He continued to speak, addressing to all, about the true repentance and purification of the soul:
“These tears of repentance are meaningful! They are more expensive than the best incense and fragrant oils!
“Not tears themselves, of course, but the repentance — for it is necessary to be exposed before God and freed from the vices of the soul!
“It is precisely the purification of the soul that is needed — to learn to see, hear, and understand God!
“This is what John taught the people about.
“Did you, Lazarus, hear the sermons of Prophet John, Whom the people called the ‘Baptist’?”
“No… I did not.”
“John said that the time is near! And — one, who has not purified the soul, cannot recognize the Messiah and accept Him! And — God’s Grace will not touch all those who are hardened in vices and sins, who only consider themselves as righteous and therefore avoid purifying themselves-souls from vices. They will remain deaf to the Truth! Their spiritual eyes will be blind, and they will not see the Light!
“The Messiah will come and choose only those who have prepared their own vessels of souls: they who have poured the filth out of themselves and have washed the soul by the pure waters of repentance! And then in these souls, the One Who baptizes with Fire will ignite the Flame of the Divine Love!
“John said that He prepares people for the reception of the Divine Light — through the aspiration to God in hearts and in thoughts, and also through the purification by repentance. For even the Messiah will not save the one who does not personally rush to save oneself-soul from the severity of vices!
“If for someone, the wealth of the material world is more important than the jewels of the spiritual life — even God, Who came to the Earth in the body, will seem to them only as strange man or even worse — a tempter leading people away from the dogmas of the faith of their ancestors!
“The Messiah-Savior can only show people the Way to salvation and manifest Oneself as an example of Purity and Light. Also — He will talk about how to achieve the life in Harmony and Oneness with the Heavenly Father.
“The Messiah-Savior offers His Help only to those who can and want to approach God by the quality of themselves-souls. He will not save anyone else from their own destinies, created by themselves!”
“So You’re the Savior?” — Lazarus asked stunned.
“You said so… Do not rush, listen to Me! And on the works, which are done through Me, look! You will understand yourself, when you want, who I am…”
“But what can I do to purify the soul today? Please tell me!”
“Forgive your sister Mary! For she is no longer guilty! She has understood what was bad in her thoughts and deeds and she has repented — and has rushed to the clean life!
“Her repentance is sincere! And therefore — God forgives her!”
… Jesus looked at me in some special way, as if He saw how much resentment and discontent with Mary had accumulated in me for a long time. He said:
“You too, Martha, forgive her!
“She, in fact, wanted and sought love! Therefore, she neglected the morality that has been instituted here, and caused to you so much anxiety.
“Forgive her — and do not remember that Mary, who, in your opinion, was sinful! By freeing the soul from the dirt of condemnation in such a way, you both will get closer to your own purification!”
r2d2009
Member
… Lazarus retorted:
“But she disgraced our family! All the people around now already know about her sins! She is worthy of punishment, not of forgiveness!”
“What do you know about shame, Lazarus? This is, first of all, only a condemnation on the part of people! Or it is a shame of the so called self-flagellation before your own conscience: when you are ashamed of yourself.
“But such a condemnation can be false!
“I, too, am destined to judgment and ‘shame’… And later — for the same — to glorification in the centuries to come. Then it will be remembered about this ‘shame’ — as about the great ‘Glory of Jesus Christ’…
“It is much better than condemning others — to cleanse yourself and transform yourself as a soul!
“It is necessary to cultivate love in yourself! It is first born and begins to grow — like a delicate flower — in the spiritual heart of man. And after — it can expand more and more!
“God sees the outside of everyone, but also knows everything that the soul has inside! What is hidden from the eyes of men — is always open to God!”
… Jesus continued, addressing to all the disciples:
“There is great power in love-forgiveness! Understand, friends, how important this is!
“Forgiveness is a medicine for the soul!
“The one who grants forgiveness — will be helped even more than the one who gets the forgiveness!
“The ability to forgive could change a lot in the lives of people!
“The ability to forgive is an important part of the ability to love!
“Not remembering the evil about the repentant man, we do not keep him or her in their past by our own ‘heavy’ thoughts about them! So — we reveal to that one the opportunity to rush into the clean future! For we help that one to believe in himself or herself and make their own future beautiful!
“But it is not enough for a person to say ‘I forgive you’ only in words, and then, in each case, to recall his or her past sins with a reproach…
“Do not remember evil — it is easy to do this just in words! But, in reality, it is necessary to work on oneself-soul.
“It is necessary to expel all the memory of resentment, all remnants of your anger! Even if there were enough reasons for these states — but all that must be left behind!
“Taking away our heavy memories, mental reproaches, the desire to respond to the offender and condemn him or her — we cleanse by this our own future, that is, our destinies.
“We also help those, whom we forgive, by revealing to the repented ones the freedom to become better, to surpass, to overcome mistakes, to remove the burden of feeling one’s own guilt.
“And let the forgiven choose for themselves: to sin or not to sin further!
“Yes, it is necessary to explain to people: what is pure and what is sinful! Yes, everyone should be helped to open their eyes to vices: so that man, having understood and repented, can change oneself and not sin anymore!
“It is also important not to look at the sinful person ‘patronizingly’, but fill your thoughts and words to him or her with love and care: for we want to help that one!
“Yes, one must be able to see evil, but should not hate the people of evil!”
… I was astounded to listen to Jesus’ speech.
And then He again turned to me and Lazarus:
“Martha, Lazarus! Try to forgive Mary — completely, fully: so that there is not even a shadow of condemnation!
“It’s not easy for a soul to live under a hail of accusations!
“You truly wanted to protect Mary from the stones that people were going to throw at her… But accusations and convictions — they are like invisible stones that are thrown into the soul!
“The ability to forgive is a healing power and, by applying it with wisdom, you can provide great help to yourself and others.
“Find this skill! And then both your life and the life around you — will be brighter and cleaner!”
* * *
Jesus and His disciples spent the night in our house.
And the next day early in the morning Mary turned to Lazarus and me with a request:
“I must go with Jesus! He — has allowed this! I ask you to understand and release me! I’ll leave anyway, even if you forbid me! But I ask you: let me go in peace!
“In Him — there is the Truth, in Him — God has descended to the Earth and speaks to people!
“He does not allow everyone to go with Him. But to me — He has allowed! I ask you: let me go!”
… I said in response:
“Why does He need a maiden among male disciples? And so many bad things have been said about Him! Now they will say that a harlot walks with Him to please Him…”
“He does not care about such gossips! Yes, people often think and speak bad about others… He calls it a sin before God!
“And I myself have not been any better either so far…
“But now, I have the opportunity to live purely and brightly!
“I used to think that I can love… But that was not the real love! I really wanted love for myself, I wanted to be the beloved! I — for myself — looked for attention and worship from men! I wanted, for myself, the caress and admiration of my beauty!
“But Jesus… He has saved me, a strayed one,… from the bad in me!
“They wanted to throw stones, but He Himself protected me, saying:
‘You judge her, not knowing anything about her! You judge, not knowing what is really sin, and what is love!
‘Let the one, who thinks that he or she does not have vices and lives without sins, — let this one first throw a stone of malice!’
“And the crowd died down. And He continued:
‘Do not judge — and you will not be judged! Forgive others — and God will forgive you!’
“Then He touched my hair gently…
“He said: ‘My purest Dawn! Do not sin any more, thinking that you are a sinner!’
“He Himself radiates such a Light, such a Peace!
“He Himself is immeasurable Love!”
… I objected to my sister:
“Mary, you have merely fallen in love again! He stood up for you before the people — and you’re already in love again!”
“It’s not that! All the former, what I called love, does not count! I did not know true love before! This is not easy to convey in words…”
“And who will you be to Him?”
“A disciple… And I will learn the real life!”
… At this time Jesus entered the room, came up, embraced Mary and turned to us:
“I beg you: let her go with Me! Her fate is being decided now!”
“But what will people say when there is a woman among Your disciples, one among men?”
“Do not be afraid, Martha! Centuries will pass — and people will say that among My worthy disciples there was also a woman named Mary!”
* * *
Mary left with Jesus. My brother Lazarus and I let her go, although reluctantly. Since then, she and Jesus have almost never parted. She became His closest companion and disciple.
And I… For a long time, I was far from direct training. But later, the time came for me to learn the Deep Truthsdirectly. For this, I would need, while maturing, to realize a lot of things and get rid of many imperfections of the soul…
“But she disgraced our family! All the people around now already know about her sins! She is worthy of punishment, not of forgiveness!”
“What do you know about shame, Lazarus? This is, first of all, only a condemnation on the part of people! Or it is a shame of the so called self-flagellation before your own conscience: when you are ashamed of yourself.
“But such a condemnation can be false!
“I, too, am destined to judgment and ‘shame’… And later — for the same — to glorification in the centuries to come. Then it will be remembered about this ‘shame’ — as about the great ‘Glory of Jesus Christ’…
“It is much better than condemning others — to cleanse yourself and transform yourself as a soul!
“It is necessary to cultivate love in yourself! It is first born and begins to grow — like a delicate flower — in the spiritual heart of man. And after — it can expand more and more!
“God sees the outside of everyone, but also knows everything that the soul has inside! What is hidden from the eyes of men — is always open to God!”
… Jesus continued, addressing to all the disciples:
“There is great power in love-forgiveness! Understand, friends, how important this is!
“Forgiveness is a medicine for the soul!
“The one who grants forgiveness — will be helped even more than the one who gets the forgiveness!
“The ability to forgive could change a lot in the lives of people!
“The ability to forgive is an important part of the ability to love!
“Not remembering the evil about the repentant man, we do not keep him or her in their past by our own ‘heavy’ thoughts about them! So — we reveal to that one the opportunity to rush into the clean future! For we help that one to believe in himself or herself and make their own future beautiful!
“But it is not enough for a person to say ‘I forgive you’ only in words, and then, in each case, to recall his or her past sins with a reproach…
“Do not remember evil — it is easy to do this just in words! But, in reality, it is necessary to work on oneself-soul.
“It is necessary to expel all the memory of resentment, all remnants of your anger! Even if there were enough reasons for these states — but all that must be left behind!
“Taking away our heavy memories, mental reproaches, the desire to respond to the offender and condemn him or her — we cleanse by this our own future, that is, our destinies.
“We also help those, whom we forgive, by revealing to the repented ones the freedom to become better, to surpass, to overcome mistakes, to remove the burden of feeling one’s own guilt.
“And let the forgiven choose for themselves: to sin or not to sin further!
“Yes, it is necessary to explain to people: what is pure and what is sinful! Yes, everyone should be helped to open their eyes to vices: so that man, having understood and repented, can change oneself and not sin anymore!
“It is also important not to look at the sinful person ‘patronizingly’, but fill your thoughts and words to him or her with love and care: for we want to help that one!
“Yes, one must be able to see evil, but should not hate the people of evil!”
… I was astounded to listen to Jesus’ speech.
And then He again turned to me and Lazarus:
“Martha, Lazarus! Try to forgive Mary — completely, fully: so that there is not even a shadow of condemnation!
“It’s not easy for a soul to live under a hail of accusations!
“You truly wanted to protect Mary from the stones that people were going to throw at her… But accusations and convictions — they are like invisible stones that are thrown into the soul!
“The ability to forgive is a healing power and, by applying it with wisdom, you can provide great help to yourself and others.
“Find this skill! And then both your life and the life around you — will be brighter and cleaner!”
* * *
Jesus and His disciples spent the night in our house.
And the next day early in the morning Mary turned to Lazarus and me with a request:
“I must go with Jesus! He — has allowed this! I ask you to understand and release me! I’ll leave anyway, even if you forbid me! But I ask you: let me go in peace!
“In Him — there is the Truth, in Him — God has descended to the Earth and speaks to people!
“He does not allow everyone to go with Him. But to me — He has allowed! I ask you: let me go!”
… I said in response:
“Why does He need a maiden among male disciples? And so many bad things have been said about Him! Now they will say that a harlot walks with Him to please Him…”
“He does not care about such gossips! Yes, people often think and speak bad about others… He calls it a sin before God!
“And I myself have not been any better either so far…
“But now, I have the opportunity to live purely and brightly!
“I used to think that I can love… But that was not the real love! I really wanted love for myself, I wanted to be the beloved! I — for myself — looked for attention and worship from men! I wanted, for myself, the caress and admiration of my beauty!
“But Jesus… He has saved me, a strayed one,… from the bad in me!
“They wanted to throw stones, but He Himself protected me, saying:
‘You judge her, not knowing anything about her! You judge, not knowing what is really sin, and what is love!
‘Let the one, who thinks that he or she does not have vices and lives without sins, — let this one first throw a stone of malice!’
“And the crowd died down. And He continued:
‘Do not judge — and you will not be judged! Forgive others — and God will forgive you!’
“Then He touched my hair gently…
“He said: ‘My purest Dawn! Do not sin any more, thinking that you are a sinner!’
“He Himself radiates such a Light, such a Peace!
“He Himself is immeasurable Love!”
… I objected to my sister:
“Mary, you have merely fallen in love again! He stood up for you before the people — and you’re already in love again!”
“It’s not that! All the former, what I called love, does not count! I did not know true love before! This is not easy to convey in words…”
“And who will you be to Him?”
“A disciple… And I will learn the real life!”
… At this time Jesus entered the room, came up, embraced Mary and turned to us:
“I beg you: let her go with Me! Her fate is being decided now!”
“But what will people say when there is a woman among Your disciples, one among men?”
“Do not be afraid, Martha! Centuries will pass — and people will say that among My worthy disciples there was also a woman named Mary!”
* * *
Mary left with Jesus. My brother Lazarus and I let her go, although reluctantly. Since then, she and Jesus have almost never parted. She became His closest companion and disciple.
And I… For a long time, I was far from direct training. But later, the time came for me to learn the Deep Truthsdirectly. For this, I would need, while maturing, to realize a lot of things and get rid of many imperfections of the soul…
Why would you enter a forum called "Scriptural Debate", state an assertion, and then ask for a show of hands of who agrees with you?
Thats not how debate works.
Your post also lacks a conclusion so there isn't even a starting point for a debate. It's just an open ended statement hanging there on it's own. You don't attempt to use that statement in the service of trying to prove a particular point. So what does it matter whether your statement is even true or false?
You state a premise and assume it's true - the idea that you think someone lied to you about how the Bible was created - but you have no "therefore" in your statement. Your assertion isnt used to try to prove a point. So there is no point to refute.
We could argue about whether or not what you were originally told about the Bible is true or not, but to what purpose? Even if we assume what you assert is true, it would neither prove nor disprove anything by itself because it must first be paired with a conclusion.
Last edited:
Skwim
Veteran Member
Well, looking back and taking names, there have been 15 people who found the thread engaging enough to express their thoughts. So the fact that you believe the thread could have been better placed is of absolutely no interest.
Have a good day.
.
.
The fact that people responded to your post is irrelevant as it does not disprove my point about how the form of your post is improper for the context of a debate forum.
You could post something completely off topic, not related to scripture, and still likely get people to bite, but that doesn't mean your off topic post is now justified. That would be the logical fallacy of appealing to popularity.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Last edited:
The logical fallacy of appealing to mockery doesn't prove your claim that you are in the right, nor disprove the fact that your post made no logical sense and appeared to have no purpose related to attempting to legitmately debate an issue.
This part you edited out is curious, and takes us back to my original question: if you don't care about making logically sound arguments and fostering clear debate on an issue, then for what purpose are you posting in a forum labeled as "debate"? What is your goal? Because honest debate can't be the goal if you are only asking who agrees with you and then get upset when someone asks you what conclusion you were even trying to assert with your original post.