Genesis & Science - Friend or Foe?

sealchan said:

The order in which things were created is scientifically wrong.

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No. That apparently is not the case. Please show me.

sealchan said:

The fact that what Genesis mentions includes only that which is visually obvious about the contents of our natural world makes the account highly inadequate scientifically.

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Huh???

sealchan said:

The basic initial structure of the Universe is wrong.

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Why so vague?
I can't respond to something for which I have no clue what you are talking about.

nPeace said:

You actually calculated the time?

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Yeah. It took less than two seconds, at most.

I believe it's 2nd grade math.


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It Aint Necessarily So said:

I'm sure that you are aware of the accounts in Genesis 1 and 2. Are you aware of the science? Do they say the same thing - tell the same story?

The Big Bang theory also contradicts Genesis. I suspect that there is no way to show this to you due to a faith-based confirmation bias that protects you from Bible contradiction, or you would already know. It's would be like you asking me what evidence I have for global warming. If you don't know by now, you are likely a faith-based thinker willing to ignore evidence, or unable to see it, meaning that there is no way for anybody to help you see these things.

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The universe is observed to be expanding. Perhaps that is not mentioned in Genesis.
The release of a tremendous amount of energy at creation, is not mentioned in Genesis, but elsewhere in the Bible, and it gives the reason and source of that energy.
The opinions and beliefs as to what caused the BB is not science - good nor bad.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Make a list of items that occurred according to Genesis, and those that occurred according to the Big Bang theory. You won't find any mention of making woman from a rib in the scientific account, nor of the inflationary epoch in the biblical account. You'll find the occasional area of overlap, but that isn't an argument for how compatible the two are, but how little they have in common and how many ways they are mutually exclusive.

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Science, or should I say, scientists have only recently discovered many things. For example, water beneath the earth.
They are still discovering - not done yet.
Perhaps one day they will discover that using a rib if one wants to build a human, is the best approach... perhaps.
What they do know, is this: We can regenerate! Researchers reveal our ribs regrow if damaged - and say the same could be true for our entire skeleton | Daily Mail Online

The Bible does not go into detail about the process of construction, and elements used.
There is no conflict here either.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

When describing the early history of the universe, we are doing both - a scientific account of the history of the universe.

Genesis attempts to do what science and history do, at at least their ancient equivalents - narratives accounting for how the world works and how it got that way.



The science contradicts scripture. You were asking for illustrations of where the two are not compatible.


Christianity says that man was created in God's image, and with a soul that survives death. Evolution says that natural selection is a blind and undirected process with no purpose or intent (it is dysteleogical). There is no place for a soul or a god in this theory. They are mutually exclusive. One invokes directed mutation, the other doesn't. One makes man a special creature in the eyes of a god, the other regards us as just another unintended consequence of natural selection operating on genetic variation withing populations over generations, and not a qualitatively different type of creation.

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What "Christians" say, and what the Bible says, can be two different things, and that would be a problem.
For example, when the "church" was arguing that the earth is the center of the universe, it was not based the Bible said.
I can see how interpretation can present a problem.
I guess that's one reason why one should not try to pit science against the Bible.
However, I created this thread in order to trash it out, so to speak.
It would be good if it could be put to rest, but I doubt it.

Just bear with me, and deal with what you consider a problem. Things will fall into place for things taken literal, and otherwise... I believe.

Soul and God are not considered in this situation.
Also, as far as I know, the teaching of immortal soul is a philosophy not taught in the Bible.
I can see how this will be complicated... for you.

Subduction Zone said:

Good science is that which is unbiased, good science is supported by observation and testing. If you have doubts about the theory of evolution it tells me that you probably do not even understand the basics of science which is why I like to start with a simplified version of the scientific method and then move on to the concept of evidence. Once a person has those two down he or she is well on their way to being able to judge what is good science or not.

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Are we in agreement?
1, Ask a question.
2. Make observations
3. Based on those observations, form a hypothesis as to what may be true.
4. Test the hypothesis by further observations and by experiments.
5. Watch to see if the predictions based on the hypothesis are true.
6. Draw a conclusion

nPeace said:

Nobody has shown seems willing to show me, where the conflict lies, so I guess we will both conclude something about one another. I'll keep my conclusions to myself... for now.

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You mean the fact that the bible states that there was a global flood, while there is ZERO geological evidence that a global flood ever occurred? That's what's called a CONFLICT between what the bible says and what good science has determined.

shunyadragon said:

There is absolutely no evidence for a flood as described in the Bible. The closest is the Sumerian Tigris Euphrates Flood recorded in Sumerian cuneiform

There is nothing 'personal' about science.

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Sigh.
Saying there is no evidence for something, helps in what way?
There is evidence.
You interpret it one way, and say there is no evidence for X
Another interprets it another way, and says there is evidence for X.
What does true science say? It does not merit the term true science, if it is formed on opinion and assumptions.

nPeace said:

They go, He Haw.

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My neighbor had one that screamed. That thing was terrifying.

Dan From Smithville said:

Excellent. Can you explain how the accounts of Genesis square with science regarding the age of the earth and the universe, the origin of life, the order of creation in Genesis, the fossil record, the theory of evolution and a global flood. I have other questions, but this is a great start. I look forward to your detailed answers. If you could, in your own words please. I am not interested in chasing down links and watching a lot of videos.

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I'll get back to you.

Dan From Smithville said:

Using the points made in this article, can you highlight areas of the study of evolution that are bad science? Can you do the same for the study of gravity, germ theory, and in particular, the development of epidemiology and the work of John Snow. I would be interested in seeing your comparison of these side by side. I want to know more about how to tell good science from bad science and since you seem to know, this is an excellent opportunity for me to learn.

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Be with you eventually.

I don't know if I have been here two hours yet, but it sure feels like it. I'm exhausted.
Monday is another day, God's will.

nPeace said:

Well I don't mean to beg. Or should I guess what exactly you have in mind?

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Most of the bibles in incorrect from either a scientific or historical perspective, that which accurately mirrors science or history is more a cases of accident than design or reeks of historical novel syndrome.

nPeace said:

Are we in agreement?
1, Ask a question.
2. Make observations
3. Based on those observations, form a hypothesis as to what may be true.
4. Test the hypothesis by further observations and by experiments.
5. Watch to see if the predictions based on the hypothesis are true.
6. Draw a conclusion

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And publish. There are some other steps as well. Publishing is very important because it allows others to test one's ideas. A person will usually have prejudices about one's own work so it is imperative that those that do not have the same prejudices test the ideas as well.

I like this simplified flow chart:

nPeace said:

Sigh.
Saying there is no evidence for something, helps in what way?

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Yes.

There is evidence.
You interpret it one way, and say there is no evidence for X
Another interprets it another way, and says there is evidence for X.
What does true science say? It does not merit the term true science, if it is formed on opinion and assumptions.

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The true science says geologic records of the earth are not opinions nor simply assumptions. They are based on sound objective verifiable evidence. I am professional environmental geologist and geomorphologist, and I have more than fifty years experience and been around the world. There is absolutely no evidence in the geologic record of any such flood.

nPeace said:

Well, according to the OP, it says, "I see no conflict between the account of Genesis, and good science." So as soon as I am finished looking over the other posts, we can discuss whether this is good science or not. Of course we can look at the scientific method, as it is a favorite for all here. Okay?

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Good science is that which has an overwhelming consensus among professional scientists. There is'nt, and has never been any other criteria regarding good science other than that which commands high levels of scientific consensus. Currently, the scientific consensus that humans evolved from ancestral apes over 10-8 million years is about 98% (Pew Survey of AAAS members). So its good science. That's the end of discussions on that front.

Frankly, who are you to determine what is good science or not? It's the scientific community that decides through the democratic consensus building process. Nothing else matters.

nPeace said:

I don't know how you arrived at that, but you would know. I understand it different.

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Well a Day Of God is as a thousand years in one Biblical passage.

About once in a thousand years a Manifestation of God appears which Baha’u’llah calls the Sun of Truth. These Exalted Beings are like the sun in as much as They shed spiritual light upon the souls of men.

And if we take Genesis as a ‘Cycle’ then in this cycle there are said to be seven Days Of God so 7 Manifestations of God are to appear until the next cycle.

Adam, Moses, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, Krishna, Zoroaster are the Suns Of Truth that each brought a Day Of God. And it totaled about 6-7,000 years.

During that time nothing much changed as far as human development and progress but when we entered a new cycle all of a sudden new knowledge hitherto unheard of has been discovered. The inventions and scientific discoveries in 100 years of the new ‘Cycle’ has been astronomical and even a thousand ages of the past can not compare to this age.

We Baha’is call this new cycle the Baha’i Cycle that began with the Great Being the Bab then Baha’u’llah. The previous cycle was the Adamic Cycle.

So when, in prophecies it says ‘the sun and moon shall be darkened’ the meaning is that the religion of that day has fallen into superstition and man made practices and does not give Spiritual ,light anymore. Then a new Sun of Truth arises.

This is just a quick personal view of Genesis creation. Water is the symbol of the water of life, the spiritual teachings which these Manifestations bring and the Moon can be Their Holy Books but there are many other meanings. The main thing I wish to emphasize is that the Bible is about God’s relationship with man.

It is a spiritual Book about God not an explanation of human evolution.

Subduction Zone said:

I was not the careless one. You seemed to be claiming that God is a liar.

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Lol..you giving me the same answer says a lot about your attitude! Ok than! so you don’t accept its True meaning of the term ‘MYSTERY?’ Yes..Off-coarse you don’t!.and your right! Only I wouldn’t call it a ‘Lie’, it’s better definition would be ‘Rejection!’ For GOD has Rejected YOU! do you want to know why that is? Well..let me explain to you of how Your concept in God became your Lier..
There are two ways of learning!..
The easy way and the hard way!..
You have taken Gods understanding and had given it the easiest way to answer! there is one thing you must understand about God..GOD is THE HARDEST way you would (NOT ever Understand!).
you see where I’ve bracketed? ..that means you do NOT want to learn more of what you don’t UNDERSTAND!
For that THERE!..is where God is LOCATED.
For this will also say that you are not FULLY developed!..which says you are not WHOLE..and for not worthy of being TRUE..which is why has left you arrogance of not wanting to learn, not admitting your wrongs, a lost person whom hold questions and twists answers, and most of all! a Lier and mouth of Denials..

I think with this description we both can agree is a perfect fit for you.

Subduction Zone said:

We know why Genesis can't be literally true unless your God lied.

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and so you say!.i believe you, ONLY because I KNOW the angle of you looking at it. Truly I DO believe you!.you don’t need to explain your explanation..I already KNOW!
You’ve lied to God, so now God has Lied to YOU..simple as that!

nPeace said:

Well I don't mean to beg. Or should I guess what exactly you have in mind?

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Just read the words ... pretty clear. Need examples? It can be scientifically shown that the Exodus did not happen and though Jerusalem is an historical city that is like a broken clock being right twice a day.

nPeace said:

That doesn't conflict. Science has nothing to do with God. It doesn't determine that the universe was not created. That's you guys.

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Nope. When the Bible says (line 1): in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And science says: the earth was born about 9 billion years after the beginning.

Then, we have a clear conflict. Independently from the earth having being created or not.

Unless you believe that “in the beginning” means “9 billion years after the beginning”. But such a level of rationalization would make science compatible with every work of fiction, or with any other religious mythology.

And that is the first line of Genesis. What follows is even worse. A real display of nonsense, when measured with what we know today. Which is to be expected, considering that the Bible has been written by some bronze age people who did not know anything of what we know today.

Ciao

- viole

Workman said:

Lol..you giving me the same answer says a lot about your attitude! Ok than! so you don’t accept its True meaning of the term ‘MYSTERY?’ Yes..Off-coarse you don’t!.and your right! Only I wouldn’t call it a ‘Lie’, it’s better definition would be ‘Rejection!’ For GOD has Rejected YOU! do you want to know why that is? Well..let me explain to you of how Your concept in God became your Lier..
There are two ways of learning!..
The easy way and the hard way!..
You have taken Gods understanding and had given it the easiest way to answer! there is one thing you must understand about God..GOD is THE HARDEST way you would (NOT ever Understand!).
you see where I’ve bracketed? ..that means you do NOT want to learn more of what you don’t UNDERSTAND!
For that THERE!..is where God is LOCATED.
For this will also say that you are not FULLY developed!..which says you are not WHOLE..and for not worthy of being TRUE..which is why has left you arrogance of not wanting to learn, not admitting your wrongs, a lost person whom hold questions and twists answers, and most of all! a Lier and mouth of Denials..

I think with this description we both can agree is a perfect fit for you.

and so you say!.i believe you, ONLY because I KNOW the angle of you looking at it. Truly I DO believe you!.you don’t need to explain your explanation..I already KNOW!
You’ve lied to God, so now God has Lied to YOU..simple as that!

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The claim of a "mystery" is simply a nonsense term that you use to try to shift the burden of proof. What you should be asking is if there was a flood what should we see? You should also ask what we should see if the Adam and Eve myth were true what should we see. Scientists asked those questions a long time ago and we do not come close to seeing anything like the Bible predicts.

The Bible is a terribly flawed book. Factually, scientifically, historically, and morally. There is no valid reason at all to read it literally. Anyone that does so is calling their God a liar, though most strive not to understand why.

Subduction Zone said:

The claim of a "mystery" is simply a nonsense term that you use to try to shift the burden of proof.

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Face/palm!!..
I said Mysteries are meant for making true senses of its True meaning.

You than replied with exact words:

“So you are claiming that God deliberately lied? Now that makes no sense at all.”

Now Tell me!..can you see where it got ‘shifted’????

How has making senses of something become a lie???
Figure it out!..mr simple.

Subduction Zone said:

What you should be asking is if there was a flood what should we see? You should also ask what we should see if the Adam and Eve myth were true what should we see.

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And I told you..you WILL find it’s proof and evidence of none!..what more do you want me to say?

Subduction Zone said:

The Bible is a terribly flawed book. Factually, scientifically, historically, and morally. There is no valid reason at all to read it literally. Anyone that does so is calling their God a liar, though most strive not to understand why.

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Yes..it does make sense you have come to that!..and than so what!..what is your plan now?
Live happily ever after? I guess..
Good luck!


So than back to your MISTAKE you’ve made earlier..I want to make it clear with you where you are going wrong in looking for evidence.

Mystery like I said is making senses of what its true meaning..to come to a conclusion of it being a lie means you did NOT find it!
And if it comes to that..than its purpose for that will NOT BE for GOD..this was the GENIUS work of it.

Mystery is placed to hide something important!..do you know what it is?
It’s a CODE!.. yes! A CODE!
Now Please tell me at least you understand how codes work?

Then we both can agree it’s a difficult process of solving. You have become blinded by it’s story..and like I said it was purposely done for that reason for many like you WILL NOT get access to it..sorry to break it to you, it’s WAY more than what you know.
For you WILL not know how to test this opportunity!.you have become blind like its science methods of it as well. i know you’ll think all this is nonsense but hey guess what! Nonsenses will lurk within you and your living because of it.