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That Whole Homosexual--Sin Thing

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
If you can't individuate genital pleasures from murdering living humans, which one of us is the "idiot who cannot tell the difference between issues" as you put it?
So you're saying one of us feels that homosexuals enjoying sex causes babies to die? 'Cause if that is not what you're saying then you are making absolutely no sense.

What I said was that homosexual individuals suffering indignation and discrimination from backward-thinking cretins who think their God has told them "how it should be" is a completely separate issue from abortion, and one doesn't need to "first" discuss abortion and what they feel about that issue to begin discussing the issue of homosexual derogation.

What is so hard to understand about that? Do you finally understand? Do you really want me to go into what I think about abortion each and every time I go to discuss the issues as I see them surrounding homosexuality? Is that what this is about? Or do you think we should just put up with homosexuals being mistreated and slandered until abortion is no longer legal? Is that what you're saying? Please... enlighten me. What the hell is it you want to happen here? Obviously you're the more intelligent between us. Go on... what have you got for me? Actual answers to my questions? I doubt it. That's not something I have witnessed people who I believe think like you do produce very often at all. It's kind of a running joke, honestly. Can't answer a simple question to save their lives most of the time. So go on. What is all this about? I am intensely curious to read your reply.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
What I said was that homosexual individuals suffering indignation and discrimination from backward-thinking cretins who think their God has told them "how it should be" is a completely separate issue from abortion, and one doesn't need to "first" discuss abortion and what they feel about that issue to begin discussing the issue of homosexual derogation.
Here's something even more relevant.

Homophobia causes abortion and single parenthood.

Gay guys (I don't pretend to speak for females) who desperately want to be normal know that getting a girl pregnant will "prove" that they don't deserve the kind of derision and oppression that homophobes will dish out. So they do it.

I did it.

Thanks @BilliardsBall . People like you are why I got a girl pregnant when I was 20 and she was 19. Because I desperately wanted to be normal, instead of a hell bound f*gg*t.
Tom
 

Dan Mellis

Thorsredballs
1. I saw a pregnant mother yesterday and told her "What a blessing!" and not "Sorry about your internal parasite!"

2. "Injustice is injustice", as you put it, does not describe the difference between your advocacy for genital pleasure between consenting adults, and my advocacy for letting humans live and not die, and not just live sexually.

3. So it's okay to assault people who "legislate their beliefs"? You don't vote for legislators who "legislate YOUR beliefs"?

1: good for you. Being a father, I entirely agree that having a family is the best thing that can happen to some people (maybe even most). I don't agree with the parasite analogy; we don't grow our own parasites. However, the word baby still doesnt actually describe the mass of unthinking, unfeelings that would be terminated. To be clear, I do not agree with termination past 16 or so weeks. You usually have plenty of time to decide in that time and the ethics just get too muddy after that point(ish, it isnt an exact science).

2: Again, genital pleasure doesnt accurately describe the situation. Sexuality plays a massive, defining part of people's personality. It is also unchangeable - despite crackpot religious attempts to comvert homosexuals. In fact, these attempts are psychologically harmful to some people.

3: Yes, but then my beliefs dont restrict anyone elses unless that belief is unjustifiably restrictive or harmful. I'm not assaulting anyone - to suggest that is slanderous. At no point have I assaulted you or any other religious person. I don't suggest you're going to be eternally tortured, or that you're evil for that part of your personality. The only restriction I would ever suggest is on the actions that would harm or discriminate against another person. Or those beliefs that would send a woman to prison for longer than her rapist for aborting the foetus that resulted from her assault.

Don't even try to get on your high horse, because you don't have a leg to stand on.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I did. They failed to impress.

When indoctrination governs belief instead of Bible truth, it sets up roadblocks to reevaluation of our concepts. When we want to believe something, we will hang onto it in spite of evidence to the contrary.

<facepalm> "Christendom" - The only time I ever see that is from the cult of the Jehovah's Witnesses, who took the Bible and rewrote it according to their revisionist whims.

As one who was raised with Christendom's doctrines, I find that rather amusing. I was convinced that humans were endowed with an immortal soul too, and when I first came into contact with JW's that concept was the hardest to accept, but the easiest to dismiss just by reading the Bible. Learning about what the ancient Jews believed about death, and reading about Jesus raising Lazarus, I realised that the dead are "sleeping"....in a state of complete inactivity. Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? (John 11:11-14) If he was in heaven, then Jesus did him no favours by bringing him back to this life, only to die again. But by resurrecting him, Jesus changed his whole destiny. Do you know how?

And Christians didn't make Hell up. It's basically alluded to in Daniel 12:2 - " Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." Where is this place of everlasting contempt Daniel is talking about?

Since I have no belief in all Christians going to heaven, it is very apparent from reading the Bible that a relatively small group of faithful ones will join Jesus as Kings and Priests in heaven (Revelation 20:6) but the majority of humankind will live forever on the earth, just as God originally intended.

When Daniel speaks about the resurrection, he too is talking about an earthly resurrection. Since both the "righteous and the unrighteousness" have been "sleeping", both willl be brought back to human life under the rulership of God's Kingdom here on earth, some will be already be faithful ones, but the unrighteous will be under a period of judgment in order to prove to God that they can qualify for permanent residency. If they fail to bring their lives into harmony with God's requirements, then the everlasting contempt will be expressed when God consigns them to eternal death.

Matthew 25:46“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The word for everlasting and eternal are the same word, “aionios.” Just as Heaven is a location, and everlasting, so is hell.

Everlasting death IS everlasting punishment....who said it was spent in consciousness? A person has to be alive and conscious to suffer.....but according to Solomon, "the dead are conscious of nothing".....they don't think, feel or plan anything. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife. Resurrection meant being called from your grave which is why you will see Jewish cemeteries with such ornate tombs.
Having one's body thrown into Gehenna, meant not having a burial tomb from which to be resurrected. It was a symbol of eternal death.....not worthy of life at all. Jesus sentenced the Pharisees to Gehenna.

Revelation 14:10-11, “…and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.” Where are they being tormented if there is no hell?

Does a person need to be alive and conscious to experience torment? Are the dead alive? Not according to the OT. (Psalm 146:4; Psalm 115:17) Jesus was Jewish, so he had no belief in an immortal soul. It was adopted from Platonic Greek ideas. It is found in nearly all false worship....but not in ancient Judaism, so it was not believed by the first Christians, who were all Jewish and who wrote the Christian scriptures.

What exactly is "the smoke of their torment" that ascends forever?
The word in Greek for "tormenter" had reference to a jailer who tormented his charges in the dungeons. To suggest that a loving God would keep souls alive in some kind of fiery dungeon to torment them forever is to do him a grave injustice. Satan would do something like that....not God. It is totally contrary to his nature....and totally contrary to his justice. Not something he would ever contemplate. (Jeremiah 7:31)

When fire is used to symbolise complete destruction, we can imagine the aftermath of a wildfire that has decimated a wide area and destroyed many homes.....the smoke ascending from the ashes is a reminder of what happened. It is not the torment that lasts forever but the smoke or memory of it.

I believe that the whole concept of "hellfire" is satanically inspired. It engenders fear, not love.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
If you want to combat HIV you need to support the rights of gays to marry the one that they love. Right now your country supports gay promiscuity.

The Philippines have an openly gay community.
They are in show business and in other industries.
They are even running the government as career civil servants.
We have no discrimination whatsoever with regards to that

The Philippine Department of Heath has many gay doctors
now that is the appropriate approach so that people with HIV
would not be discriminated upon and would entice people to undergo testing

Dancing ASEC Eric Tayag
dancing-asec-tayag.jpg

https://www.doh.gov.ph/Top-Health-Stories/Dancing-ASEC-Eric-Tayag

Dr. Tayag is openly gay and works as the Assistant Secretary of the Department of Health in the Philippines


The bottom line of things is we understand gay people
because the Philippines has close knit family ties
they could be our relatives, friends, co-workers or neighbors
However, we still regard their God given gender as such even if they
go to Thailand for gender reassignment
If they are born Male, their license, passport and other legal documents will be unchanged
Since no one is above the law, our Family Code says marriage is between a man and woman
being as such, no one is allowed to break it.

We still hold our conservative values
Which other countries do not have.
  1. We do not allow gay marriages
  2. We do not allow legalize narcotics
  3. We do not allow divorce
  4. We do not allow abortion
  5. We do not allow pornography
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
I believe that the whole concept of "hellfire" is satanically inspired. It engenders fear, not love.

Jesus spoke about Hellfire. Is he Satanic too?

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!


"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41

"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41

"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29

"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47

"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47

"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33

"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29

"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50

"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45

"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50

"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30

"torments" Luke 16:23

"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24

"place of torment" Luke 16:28

"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13

"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE


The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this FLAME."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."


HELL IS FOREVER!


The Truth About Hell
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Jesus spoke about Hellfire. Is he Satanic too?

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!


"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41

"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41

"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29

"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47

"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47

"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33

"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29

"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50

"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45

"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50

"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30

"torments" Luke 16:23

"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24

"place of torment" Luke 16:28

"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13

"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE


The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this FLAME."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."


HELL IS FOREVER!


The Truth About Hell
Lets see. I, along with millions and millions of others, will suffer torment, everlasting fire, eternal damnation, everlasting punishment, and be subject to the weeping and wailing of gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness where the worm dieth not because your just and merciful god is a loving god.

Hmmm. Sounds about right. Thank you. Thank you Jesus.

.
 
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Spartan

Well-Known Member
The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife.

Pretty sure a good number of them believed in an afterlife.

David spoke in the 23rd Psalm about how he would dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

Daniel spoke about it too: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2).

In Job 19:25-27 he says that “I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!”

Then there’s Isaiah 26:19: “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You, who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.”

King Saul dredged up the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel.

I think there's one in Ezekiel also but I can't recall where.

So there you go. That's enough to make the case that there was Jewish belief in the afterlife in the Old Testament.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Lets see. I, along with millions and millions of others, will suffer torment, everlasting fire, eternal damnation, everlasting punishment, and be subject to the weeping and wailing of gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness where the worm dieth not because your just and merciful god is a loving god. Hmmm. Sounds about right. Thank you. Thank you Jesus.

.
Not quite. Actually just the opposite. Jesus offers an eternity of love, mercy, beauty, and freedom from anything that causes pain, heartache, or suffering for anyone who desires. Those who end up wailing and gnashing teeth in a place of outer darkness and eternal torment are only there because they refuse to enter into the eternity God offers. Their suffering is the result of self-torment, being eternally alone, apart from God, the only Source of goodness and love, forever.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Jesus spoke about Hellfire. Is he Satanic too?

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!


"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41

"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41

"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29

"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47

"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47

"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33

"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29

"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50

"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45

"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50

"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30

"torments" Luke 16:23

"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24

"place of torment" Luke 16:28

"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13

"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE


The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this FLAME."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."


HELL IS FOREVER!


The Truth About Hell
You quoted the wrong person. Try again.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Not quite. Actually just the opposite. Jesus offers an eternity of love, mercy, beauty, and freedom from anything that causes pain, heartache, or suffering for anyone who desires. Those who end up wailing and gnashing teeth in a place of outer darkness and eternal torment are only there because they refuse to enter into the eternity God offers. Their suffering is the result of self-torment, being eternally alone, apart from God, the only Source of goodness and love, forever.
And what of those who never heard of Jesus and god's Get Out Of Hell FREE card? Or those who, vexed by wholly inept preachers, were never convinced the card held any validity? "Tough cookie sinner. Pack for a warm climate." --signed-- Your loving God.

.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Pretty sure a good number of them believed in an afterlife.

David spoke in the 23rd Psalm about how he would dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

The later Jews adopted belief in an immortal soul from the Greeks. It is not Biblical. Hell cannot exist without an immortal soul.The original Jews had no such belief.

What was "the House of the Lord" to David ? It was God's Tabernacle or Temple. Where was God's Temple as the center of Jewish worship?...it was here on earth. The Jews believed that God's Kingdom would be established on earth once the Messiah had completed his mission, with the Jews making up the priesthood and Jesus as High Priest. Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, his apostles asked if he was going to establish his Kingdom then and there. (Act of the Apostles 1:6) They had no notion of going to heaven or hell.

Jesus would reveal more details about his Kingdom and those assigned to rule with him later when the holy spirit revealed more at Pentecost. Only then would they understand the spiritual nature of the Kingdom ruling from heaven over the earth.

Daniel spoke about it too: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2).

These ones "sleep in the dust". The awakening is the resurrection. The judgment comes after they are raised....not as a result of past sins, but as a result of how they prove themselves after their resurrection.
At death one is acquitted of all past sins, (Romans 6:7; 23) having paid the highest penalty there is under God's law.

In Job 19:25-27 he says that “I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!”

I am wondering if you are even reading these scriptures. Job had full expectations of an earthly physical bodily resurrection.

Job 14:13-15
"Oh that you would hide me in Sheol,
that you would conceal me until your wrath be past,
that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again?
All the days of my service I would wait,
till my renewal should come.
15 You would call, and I would answer you;
you would long for the work of your hands." (ESV)


What was Job praying for? More suffering in hell? Or was "sheol" a place where he could hide from God's wrath and feel safe?
Job was praying to die, and then to be remembered in the resurrection to come.

Then there’s Isaiah 26:19: “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You, who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.”

This is again talking about a physical resurrection. "Their bodies will rise", not their souls or spirits.

King Saul dredged up the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel.

Did he? Or rather did a disobedient King fall for the ruse of a spirit medium dredging up a demon impersonating the dead Samuel? If God's living prophets would not speak to Saul, and spirit mediums had been banished from the land by Saul himself under God's instruction, how is it even possible that this was Samuel?

So there you go. That's enough to make the case that there was Jewish belief in the afterlife in the Old Testament.

You can't just pluck verse at random to prove your point. They must be understood in context and with a clear picture of what was believed at the time. Have you done any in depth Bible study? It doesn't mean glossing over doctrine with a few verses that seem to support a particular view....you must understand what the Bible as a whole teaches. It is one story from Genesis to Revelation.....it has one author and many secretaries.

What we lost in Eden will be given back to us through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the rulership of his Kingdom. We are made for life on earth and the earth was made as a permanent home for us. That is what 46 years of Bible study has taught me. The simplicity is what makes it so beautiful, but the devil who sowed fake Christianity after the death of the apostles, has complicated so many things that confusion now reigns in the hearts of many, unable to find the needle in the haystack......but God promises to help us find the needle. (John 6:44; John 6:65)
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Once again your answer to my question about whether you can reason logically is a "No." since you insist upon making false claims about others. Nice try. Perhaps when you return you will be over this bad mood and will be able to reason once again. Here is a hint, don't make false claims about others and base your arguments upon that. That is a strawman, a logical fallacy.

Simple question.
Without Darwin's theory of evolution, abiogenesis, the big bang, etc, would you believe a god created everything?
I doubt it. You seem stuck on without evidence, it didn't happen and that's a personal choice, not a scientific choice.

A simpler question, in reality do you train your mind or let your mind train you?
.
An atom always existed even before we could show it. The moon didn't harbour life even before we could show it didn't. Just because we don't yet know doesn't mean it isn't so.
All we can do is go with our best explanation and that doesn't mean it's right.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Simple question.
Without Darwin's theory of evolution, abiogenesis, the big bang, etc, would you believe a god created everything?
I doubt it. You seem stuck on without evidence, it didn't happen and that's a personal choice, not a scientific choice.

A simpler question, in reality do you train your mind or let your mind train you?
.
An atom always existed even before we could show it. The moon didn't harbour life even before we could show it didn't. Just because we don't yet know doesn't mean it isn't so.
All we can do is go with our best explanation and that doesn't mean it's right.

I am not sure. The argument for God has always been an argument from ignorance. And the morals of the Bible are clearly not the best. One has to use all sorts of apologetics to explain how the Bible supports slavery, genocide, and other crimes.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Simple question.
Without Darwin's theory of evolution, abiogenesis, the big bang, etc, would you believe a god created everything?
I doubt it. You seem stuck on without evidence, it didn't happen and that's a personal choice, not a scientific choice
.
An atom always existed even before we could show it. The moon didn't harbour life even before we could show it didn't. Just because we don't yet know doesn't mean it isn't so.
All we can do is go with our best explanation and that doesn't mean it's right.
I am not sure. The argument for God has always been an argument from ignorance. And the morals of the Bible are clearly not the best. One has to use all sorts of apologetics to explain how the Bible supports slavery, genocide, and other crimes.

The argument for God hasn't always been a argument from ignorace except for probably the last 700 years.
That again is you thinking "always" as a choice, not reality.
Was it an argument from ignorance 3000 years ago?
Things change, crap happens, we don't know every thing, without a witness, it's still possible, things happen and exist we don't know about, what we think we know could be wrong, etc. That is reality.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
And what of those who never heard of Jesus and god's Get Out Of Hell FREE card? Or those who, vexed by wholly inept preachers, were never convinced the card held any validity? "Tough cookie sinner. Pack for a warm climate." --signed-- Your loving God.

.
Wrong again. Those who have never heard of Jesus or those who were never presented the clear gospel will only be separated from God because they chose to ignore and reject the light and truth which was revealed to them, whether in nature or conscience. They will not be judged by what they don't know or understand...but by what they do know, yet refused.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Why would a god create such a destructive species?
The scriptures say that God created everything good. Humans chose sin over God's love and goodness and sin causes the destruction. God had to give humans the choice to choose love or sin because love must be freely received and given. The choice is still available, though, for His love and deliverance from the destruction.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The argument for God hasn't always been a argument from ignorace except for probably the last 700 years.
That again is you thinking "always" as a choice, not reality.
Was it an argument from ignorance 3000 years ago?
Things change, crap happens, we don't know every thing, without a witness, it's still possible, things happen and exist we don't know about, what we think we know could be wrong, etc. That is reality.
When has there ever been reliable evidence for a God?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Wrong again. Those who have never heard of Jesus or those who were never presented the clear gospel will only be separated from God because they chose to ignore and reject the light and truth which was revealed to them, whether in nature or conscience. They will not be judged by what they don't know or understand...but by what they do know, yet refused.

Do you think Indigenous tribes have the same god as you? Or like other humans they made up a god from fear and what they didn't understand. They more than likely have more than one god.
I would think their gods differ much from your creator god. What do you think?
 
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