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Question About Matthew 2:9

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Absolutely. The tale is simply dumb beyond belief. But when you're committed to believe whatever is put before you reason takes a back seat to need. In a sense it's sad.

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It is dumb, because from your world view, all things always are bound by natural law.

My world view tells me that so called supernatural events occur where natural laws do not apply.

It actually is dumb to believe that our senses are the ultimate arbiters to establish reality.

As an example, prominent scientists have postulated multi dimensiononal reality that in essence shares the exact same space as our dimension, yet these dimensions cannot be experienced in any fashion by us.

arrogant dismissal of what you refuse to consider serves no purpose.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Does 'do right' mean anything more that that?

Good question.

I think most versions use the word “righteousness” or similar.
That has to do with following God’s standards of what He says is right, and avoiding what He says is wrong. Of course, ‘those who don’t “practice righteousness / act righteously” ‘ aren’t following His standards. But we all fall way short of that! A lot of it, is our attitude....and how much effort we put into controlling / restraining our bad inclinations. Interestingly, self-control is a fruitage of having God’s spirit...as if He knew we’d need help in that!
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good question.

I think most versions use the word “righteousness” or similar.
That has to do with following God’s standards of what He says is right, and avoiding what He says is wrong. Of course, ‘those who don’t “practice righteousness / act righteously” ‘ aren’t following His standards. But we all fall way short of that! A lot of it, is our attitude....and how much effort we put into controlling / restraining our bad inclinations. Interestingly, self-control is a fruitage of having God’s spirit...as if He knew we’d need help in that!
I like your 'love your fellow humans' much more than I like your 'God says' standards. I mean, have you read what God actually did in the bible? Invasive war, massacres of populations, women as property, mass rape, slavery, human sacrifice, murderous religious intolerance, &c. Sheesh!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I like your 'love your fellow humans' much more than I like your 'God says' standards. I mean, have you read what God actually did in the bible? Invasive war, massacres of populations, women as property, mass rape, slavery, human sacrifice, murderous religious intolerance, &c. Sheesh!

Yep, I’ve read it. Most had to do with protecting His people, from those wanting to kill them. The Israelites were His. Just like a family, wayward though they turned out to be.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Invasive war, massacres of populations, women as property, mass rape, slavery, human sacrifice, murderous religious intolerance, &c. Sheesh!

And yet, the same book says “God is love.”

Exploring and explaining these seeming contradictions will be my next post, but it’ll have to be later....I’ve got some things to do today & tomorrow.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Where did you get the idea that Christmas is such a wonderful event? Apparently a lot of men feel this way because they don't have to do much....most of the hard work is done by the Missus. Right?

I have been in supermarket lines with women looking haggard because of all the Christmas shopping and the amount food and drinks they have to buy, and they will say to me..."have you finished your Christmas shopping yet?" and I say with a smile that I don't celebrate Christmas and I don't miss it one bit when I see all these worn out people trying to keep up with a tradition that has become nothing but an expensive burden for many. All the things that people love about Christmas can be enjoyed at any time of year, and many will say to me "I wish I didn't have to do all this"..... so I feel for all these weary women who have so much to do to keep up with a celebration that many have not even finished paying off from last year.

All of the elements that Christmas brings are based on pagan myths that have nothing whatever to do with Christianity. Becoming a slave to a commercial tradition is a choice. It has no religious significance for a large proportion of the earth's population....for these it is a commercial event.

Celebrating decency and civility occurs where? Ask the police what they think of Christmas when domestic alcohol fueled violence goes off the scale. Ask the homeless or elderly who have no family how they feel about it?

"universal and inclusive goodwill, generosity, feasting, present-giving and kindness"? Is that what you see? And you think that people displaying these qualities one day in the year is sufficient? :facepalm:

I assure you that, according to his word, God has a great deal of argument with it.

Do you have any family traditions or religious traditions?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And yet, the same book says “God is love.”

Exploring and explaining these seeming contradictions will be my next post, but it’ll have to be later....I’ve got some things to do today & tomorrow.
I don't feel any need for a God when I try to deal with other people inclusively, with decency and in good conscience and with common sense. I don't need a threat of eternal hellfire blah blah to point me in that direction. Nor do I need anyone but me to reprimand me when I don't get it right.

On the other hand if others find belief in a god, or gods, or spirits, gets them to behave in a similar way, who am I to argue?

(However, I confess to a deep dislike of fundamentalism of all kinds, and in particular teaching it to children. That's because I think the question, What's true in reality? is central to understanding, whereas fundamentalism arbitrarily prescribes answers and bends the world to fit them.)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Do you have any family traditions or religious traditions?

Our family enjoys life without slavery to tradition getting in the way. We see the supermarkets full of products that everyone feels compelled to buy and then, when that passes, the next celebration has everyone parting with their money again.....it goes on all year long, going from one reason for forced giving to another. The commercial system is laughing at the public gullibility in falling for the emotional manipulation that keeps them in business.

The closest JW's would get is perhaps celebrating another year of marriage. A different day and date for most people, making it personally relevent just for them. This may be a family celebration day for some, but it's an individual choice. We give gifts because we want to, not because a date on a calendar dictates it.

The only celebration that has any connection to my religion is the one commanded by Jesus himself.....the annual Memorial commemoration of his death. It is held on the exact day and date indicated in the Bible.

We are not slaves to the world's commercial system. Our giving has a completely different motivation. We like it that way.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I don't feel any need for a God when I try to deal with other people inclusively, with decency and in good conscience and with common sense. I don't need a threat of eternal hellfire blah blah to point me in that direction. Nor do I need anyone but me to reprimand me when I don't get it right.

On the other hand if others find belief in a god, or gods, or spirits, gets them to behave in a similar way, who am I to argue?

(However, I confess to a deep dislike of fundamentalism of all kinds, and in particular teaching it to children. That's because I think the question, What's true in reality? is central to understanding, whereas fundamentalism arbitrarily prescribes answers and bends the world to fit them.)
You fundamentally do not understand fundamental Christians. Fundamentalism simply means believing in the fundamentals of the faith, which have been fundamental for 2,000 years.

Doesn´t what you describe as reality arbitrarily describe answers and bends the world to fit them ?

I am a micro evolutionist, science supports it, the Bible supports it.

However, your reality arbitrarily has decided that humanity and all living things are the result of a chance combination of chemicals that created a primitive simple organism .

This is dogmatically taught as fact. This is fundamentalism, nothing less.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I think the question, What's true in reality? is central to understanding,......

Me, too. So my question is, what is behind all of these ghost stories, and experiences? Like, Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia , or List of reportedly haunted locations in the United States - Wikipedia , or the thousands of others

Granted, many incidents are faked...but all of them? With many reputable people being the eyewitnesses?

Since the Bible says 'the dead know nothing, their thoughts perish, they are sleeping' -Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4; John 11:11-14 ....What is going on? I'll tell you: intelligent forces are trying to mislead people (and succeeded) as Revelation 12:9 informs us..

Something else to think about: if, as the Bible says, the dead "know nothing"...just how did Bible 'supporters' get this idea of tormenting the dead? Since, really, the dead can't feel?!

More misleading influences!

Just think about it...the conclusion is obvious...there are unseen intelligent entities trying to fool mankind! Any way they can....getting them to believe lies!
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The act of one is not the act of the other
If Herod ordered the killing of infants it wasn't because of the star
It was because of frustration that the Magi failed to report
the whereabouts of the baby Jesus
If the Magi saw it, then they saw it.
It was a special star - it moved like
it was their GPS tracker
images

I find that at first the *star* led the un-numbered magi to 'Jerusalem' ( Not to Bethlehem )
Caravans in those days were made up of more than 3 people.
It would Not have been safe to carry ' gold ' in a caravan of just 3 people.
So, it was three (3) gifts, but more than three (3) persons.
Yes, it was Herod who sent the magi to Bethlehem ( Not the *star* ) - Matthew 3:7-8
By the time the magi found Jesus he was Not an infant in a manger - Matthew 3:11
Jesus was a child in a house, and it does Not say where the house was located.
Herod sent the magi to Bethlehem, but where did the * star * then lead them __________
Remember: Jesus was just born in Bethlehem and that does Not mean they moved to Bethlehem.
Then the God-given ' dream ' (Not the *star*) warned the magi Not to return to Herod (Jerusalem) - Matthew 3:12
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Granted, many incidents are faked...but all of them? With many reputable people being the eyewitnesses?
Since the Bible says 'the dead know nothing, their thoughts perish, they are sleeping' -Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4; John 11:11-14 ....What is going on? I'll tell you: intelligent forces are trying to mislead people (and succeeded) as Revelation 12:9 informs us..
Something else to think about: if, as the Bible says, the dead "know nothing"...just how did Bible 'supporters' get this idea of tormenting the dead? Since, really, the dead can't feel?!
More misleading influences!
Just think about it...the conclusion is obvious...there are unseen intelligent entities trying to fool mankind! Any way they can....getting them to believe lies!

To me, the 'unseen intelligent entities' are using the fake 'weed/tares' clergy classes.
That is because those ' clergy ' often teach non-biblical teachings as being Scripture.
So, it is any wonder the clergy-entrenched teachings fool many, but hopefully many more eyes will be opened.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Do you have any family traditions or religious traditions?
A friend and I once a year we remember February 11th 1961 because that was a memorable first in our lives.
Since my father was buried in late May 1950 I like to go to the cemetery this time of year to reflect.
As far as religious traditions Deeje is right. In Scripture I find the only Red-letter calendar day for Christians is the Jewish month of Nisan the 14th day on the Jewish calendar which is the anniversary of the death of Jesus - Luke 22:19.
That lunar date often corresponds to the Jewish Passover date.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You fundamentally do not understand fundamental Christians. Fundamentalism simply means believing in the fundamentals of the faith, which have been fundamental for 2,000 years.
If that were all there was to it, there'd be little to it.

But fundamentalism is defined by the idea of an inerrant bible. That's self-evidently absurd, and my strong objection is teaching it to children. Let consenting adults in private practice such nonsense, but leave the kids out of it.
Doesn´t what you describe as reality arbitrarily describe answers and bends the world to fit them ?
The world external to the self, nature, the realm of the physical sciences, the sum of things with objective existence, are all synonyms for objective reality. We explore it with reasoned enquiry, including scientific method. When the conclusions of science disagree with reality, reality wins every time, and science adjusts accordingly.
I am a micro evolutionist, science supports it, the Bible supports it.
Only since Dover (2005) has micro-evolution grown in favor with fundamentalists. It's a step in the right direction but it still leads to the proposition that macro-evolution is the result of magic rather than natural processes. And to say it's magic is to say it's forever inexplicable, which is a baseless notion.
However, your reality arbitrarily has decided that humanity and all living things are the result of a chance combination of chemicals that created a primitive simple organism .
Let me put it this way. At present there is no scientific description of a path from chemistry to self-replicating biochemistry. When, or let's say for politeness if, such a path is found and described and demonstrated to the satisfaction of science, will you give up fundamentalism?
This is dogmatically taught as fact. This is fundamentalism, nothing less.
Interesting accusation ─ you insult science by putting it on your level.

It's wholly untrue, of course. Science is not dogmatic. Unlike religion, it constantly compares its findings to reality, and revisits and retests them, to make our understanding of reality as good as we can. When a problem is found, it's acknowledged and examined, and ideas and information shared. There are no absolutes outside this sentence. And science, based on empiricism and induction, explicitly acknowledges that. As Brian Cox put it, a law of physics is an informed statement about physics that hasn't been falsified,

Fundamentalism (and faith/story based religion in general) has no equivalent to that, and no appetite for an equivalent.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Me, too. So my question is, what is behind all of these ghost stories, and experiences? Like, Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia , or List of reportedly haunted locations in the United States - Wikipedia , or the thousands of others

Granted, many incidents are faked...but all of them? With many reputable people being the eyewitnesses?
The major line of enquiry is suggestion. Having experienced the creeps, I don't doubt they're real, but I suspect they evolved to reinforce care in situations likely to be dangerous, particularly at night.

I've never been in the White House, so I don't know how spooky or echoey or atmospheric the place is, not least at night. But many of those reports in your linked article don't involve appearances, just 'the sense of a presence'. How does 'the sense of a presence' translate into Lincoln unless the connection is provided, not by the data but by the subject?

As for poor Queen Wilhelmina, in what emotional state did she go to the door, in particular was she already spooked? (I suppose one could argue that her fainting suggests she was cold-cocked, but not necessarily.) Second, did she really see someone, and if she did, did she imagine it was Lincoln? Or was it someone who could be mistaken for Lincoln? Whichever, if not an error, which is more likely, a spook or a hoax?

As for the photos, if you can photograph a ghost, why aren't the security cameras full of Lincoln's hauntings, all day every day?

What is a ghost if not simply an image in the mind? What physical presence does it have by which it can knock on doors ─ why would it knock on its own bedroom door? ─ or deflect light so as to appear in photos?

Why Lincoln? He died elsewhere, even if his body was taken to the White House later. Why isn't the ghost of John Tyler or Rutherford Hayes shaking everyone up? Or the doppelganger of Jimmy Carter, for that matter? Suggestion, suggestion, suggestion. And maybe helped by a spooky or off-putting atmosphere at times.
Since the Bible says 'the dead know nothing, their thoughts perish, they are sleeping' -Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4; John 11:11-14 ....What is going on? I'll tell you: intelligent forces are trying to mislead people (and succeeded) as Revelation 12:9 informs us..
I really don't think so. I've never even seen a reasonable explanation of what 'supernatural' means that isn't the same thing as 'imaginary''. Nor do I think people 2000 years ago knew more about such things than we do, otherwise there wouldn't be such cultural distinctions between supernatural beliefs. Rather I think that human curiosity demands an explanation, and before science was on the scene, this job fell to the storytellers and the sages as repositories of folk wisdom.
Something else to think about: if, as the Bible says, the dead "know nothing"...just how did Bible 'supporters' get this idea of tormenting the dead? Since, really, the dead can't feel?!
Interesting point. First, I agree the dead know nothing. The same idea is also found in eg Job 12:7-8, 14:10-12. Ecclesiastes 3:18-22. In the NT, Paul thinks death is the end eg Romans 6:9, as does John eg 3:16. Mark, perhaps metaphorically, thinks baddies go to Gehenna, but Matthew and Luke and John of Patmos are all for the eternal fiery lake. So for those who think the soul is a meaningful real thing, it's take your pick, really.
Just think about it...the conclusion is obvious...there are unseen intelligent entities trying to fool mankind! Any way they can....getting them to believe lies!
They go by various names ─ politicians, Big Business, Trump, Facebook ... a lucrative industry, I'm told.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The major line of enquiry is suggestion. Having experienced the creeps, I don't doubt they're real, but I suspect they evolved to reinforce care in situations likely to be dangerous, particularly at night.

I've never been in the White House, so I don't know how spooky or echoey or atmospheric the place is, not least at night. But many of those reports in your linked article don't involve appearances, just 'the sense of a presence'. How does 'the sense of a presence' translate into Lincoln unless the connection is provided, not by the data but by the subject?

As for poor Queen Wilhelmina, in what emotional state did she go to the door, in particular was she already spooked? (I suppose one could argue that her fainting suggests she was cold-cocked, but not necessarily.) Second, did she really see someone, and if she did, did she imagine it was Lincoln? Or was it someone who could be mistaken for Lincoln? Whichever, if not an error, which is more likely, a spook or a hoax?

As for the photos, if you can photograph a ghost, why aren't the security cameras full of Lincoln's hauntings, all day every day?

What is a ghost if not simply an image in the mind? What physical presence does it have by which it can knock on doors ─ why would it knock on its own bedroom door? ─ or deflect light so as to appear in photos?

Why Lincoln? He died elsewhere, even if his body was taken to the White House later. Why isn't the ghost of John Tyler or Rutherford Hayes shaking everyone up? Or the doppelganger of Jimmy Carter, for that matter? Suggestion, suggestion, suggestion. And maybe helped by a spooky or off-putting atmosphere at times.
I really don't think so. I've never even seen a reasonable explanation of what 'supernatural' means that isn't the same thing as 'imaginary''. Nor do I think people 2000 years ago knew more about such things than we do, otherwise there wouldn't be such cultural distinctions between supernatural beliefs. Rather I think that human curiosity demands an explanation, and before science was on the scene, this job fell to the storytellers and the sages as repositories of folk wisdom.
Interesting point. First, I agree the dead know nothing. The same idea is also found in eg Job 12:7-8, 14:10-12. Ecclesiastes 3:18-22. In the NT, Paul thinks death is the end eg Romans 6:9, as does John eg 3:16. Mark, perhaps metaphorically, thinks baddies go to Gehenna, but Matthew and Luke and John of Patmos are all for the eternal fiery lake. So for those who think the soul is a meaningful real thing, it's take your pick, really.
They go by various names ─ politicians, Big Business, Trump, Facebook ... a lucrative industry, I'm told.
I see you read the "Lincoln's Ghost" Wikipedia article. But you omitted Winston Churchill's experience. He was not flighty or prone to emotional outbursts.

What of the other articles? Some of these events are real!

All of them just can't be arbitrarily discounted!

Since the dead "know nothing"....just who are these entities pretending to be, i.e., impostering, these dead people? And why?
It's not for no reason that Jehovah forbade the Israelites to "inquire of the dead", the same with 'fortune telling, casting spells and omens'! The punishment was severe. -- Deuteronomy 18:10-12. Why?

Exodus 7 10-12 helps explain it....invisible forces are at odds with / trying to thwart God's purposes.

What you believe about death....that it's the opposite of life, the dead are dead, it's the end of life....it makes sense, right? And the Bible really says that. The only hope the Bible holds out for the dead, is the future Resurrection (Acts of the Apostles 24:15, "going to be..."). But almost all religions, worldwide, teach that there is an immediate afterlife!

I know it's what people want to believe, that their dead loved ones are alive somewhere else, but it doesn't help having imposters reinforce that idea!

FWIW, Why do "ghosts" always wear clothes? Why would their clothes turn into spirit? How does that happen?

Why is fear almost always associated with ancestor worship? Why would people fear their dead grandparents?

These invisible entities are malevolent...they do not have our best interests at heart. Not in the long run.

You ended your reply jokingly. But I hope you seriously think about these things!

1Jo 5:19 (NIV) is more apropos than you may realize: "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But you omitted Winston Churchill's experience. He was not flighty or prone to emotional outbursts.
The ever-helpful net provides the following on Churchill and the ghost of Lincoln ─

It is true, writes Mr. Lehrman, “that Harry Hopkins had been occupying the so-called Lincoln Suite (inaccurately dubbed the Lincoln Bedroom) since 1940. Mr. Churchill was happy with the Rose Suite, as it was directly across the hall from Hopkins. It would seem that the powers that be in the White House at that time thought Mr. Churchill so important that they showed him the Lincoln Bedroom out of deference, Hopkins notwithstanding. Fortunately, it seems Mr. Churchill did not like the bed, thus no cause for disturbing Hopkins. Churchill was more than satisfied with the Rose Suite, immediately across the hall from Hopkins, primarily because it gave him immediate access to Hopkins, with whom he already had a very special relationship.”

So, unless the ghost of Mr. Lincoln was in the habit of switching rooms, he is unlikely to have appeared in Churchill’s bedroom. Even less likely did the apparition appear as Churchill was emerging from his bath. By the way, his baths though frequent did not occur late at night. The Lincoln Bedroom wasn’t so named until 1961. Before then it was the “Blue Suite.” Lincoln used it as a study, not a bedroom. According to the White House Museum the bedroom furniture was moved in by President Truman in 1945.​
What of the other articles? Some of these events are real!
I have no reason to think so. And having offered purported photographic evidence and tapping on doors, you haven't explained how a ghost can do those things, nor, if it can, why the security cameras at the White House aren't full of imagines of Lincoln's ghost all the time.

The creeps fits all the evidence.
FWIW, Why do "ghosts" always wear clothes? Why would their clothes turn into spirit? How does that happen?
It doesn't.
Why is fear almost always associated with ancestor worship? Why would people fear their dead grandparents?
Is it? Do they? I don't know, but my guess would be that they imagine their dead ancestors have power to harm them.
These invisible entities are malevolent...
That is, humans imagine them to be malevolent. For instance, the creeps is not a jolly feeling.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I felt it was important to touch on this....

I like your 'love your fellow humans' much more than I like your 'God says' standards.

Well, this comes from God...it is His standard, what His Son, Jesus, taught. — John 15 10-13,17.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I felt it was important to touch on this....

Well, this comes from God...it is His standard, what His Son, Jesus, taught. — John 15 10-13,17.
It actually comes from evolution, a set of behavioral tendencies appropriate for gregarious primates living in cooperative groups. That's why it's found in all cultures, not just Christian ones.

But never mind. We agree that behaving with inclusion and decency towards our fellow humans is both good and seriously important.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The ever-helpful net provides the following on Churchill and the ghost of Lincoln ─

It is true, writes Mr. Lehrman, “that Harry Hopkins had been occupying the so-called Lincoln Suite (inaccurately dubbed the Lincoln Bedroom) since 1940. Mr. Churchill was happy with the Rose Suite, as it was directly across the hall from Hopkins. It would seem that the powers that be in the White House at that time thought Mr. Churchill so important that they showed him the Lincoln Bedroom out of deference, Hopkins notwithstanding. Fortunately, it seems Mr. Churchill did not like the bed, thus no cause for disturbing Hopkins. Churchill was more than satisfied with the Rose Suite, immediately across the hall from Hopkins, primarily because it gave him immediate access to Hopkins, with whom he already had a very special relationship.”

So, unless the ghost of Mr. Lincoln was in the habit of switching rooms, he is unlikely to have appeared in Churchill’s bedroom. Even less likely did the apparition appear as Churchill was emerging from his bath. By the way, his baths though frequent did not occur late at night. The Lincoln Bedroom wasn’t so named until 1961. Before then it was the “Blue Suite.” Lincoln used it as a study, not a bedroom. According to the White House Museum the bedroom furniture was moved in by President Truman in 1945.​
I have no reason to think so. And having offered purported photographic evidence and tapping on doors, you haven't explained how a ghost can do those things, nor, if it can, why the security cameras at the White House aren't full of imagines of Lincoln's ghost all the time.

The creeps fits all the evidence.
It doesn't.
Is it? Do they? I don't know, but my guess would be that they imagine their dead ancestors have power to harm them.
That is, humans imagine them to be malevolent. For instance, the creeps is not a jolly feeling.

There are just too many incidents to label it all as weird feelings, the creeps!

As far as the extent of abilities these unseen beings have, idk...more than humans! And more cunning! As I’ve mentioned, they want to mislead, and one way is to keep furthering that lie told to Eve, “You positively will not die,” by impostering dead folk. Genesis 3 4.


It’s just one experience among millions no doubt, but Mary Todd Lincoln went to her grave, thinking she spoke with her dead son Willie, and her dead husband Mr. Lincoln, during séances.

In the future, when they are all resurrected, they will have to tell her that they never spoke with her after their death....she will find out that the ‘spirits’ speaking w/ her, were imposters pretending to be them! And millions of other people will be enlightened.

So many people who lived in ancestor-worship cultures, will find out the truth @ their resurrection and subsequent reuniting with their loved ones....a joyous time it will be....and enlightening! Revelation 21:3-4.

Take care, for now.
 
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